Quote from: iKate on September 06, 2015, 09:08:16 PM
I don't really measure Hz anymore but people (my friends) say my voice is higher compared to 2 weeks ago. One of them was confused when talking to me tonight and thought he had the wrong number. :p

I'm doing the exercises religiously now and they do have an effect.

Breathiness is less but I have a little to play with and I can add it on demand pretty much and it doesn't sound false or fake at all.

Really really happy with my result. Even in my worst guy drag like when I go to Lowe's to buy lumber and drywall I'm gendered female now.

Yay! I start exercises tomorrow :-).


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My curiosity got the better of me and I did a crude measurement of my min and max usable pitch.

Minimum is 125.1Hz. That's the lowest I can go.
Maximum is 391.99Hz (let's just say 392Hz, lol).

I can go higher to over 400Hz but only very softly and it takes effort. Doing the exercises should help with this.

Soooo somehow in my travels in the last two months I lost JUST the second sheet with the exercises on it. I have page one. If anyone would be so kind as to PM me the exercises that are on page two I would so appreciate it!


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Anjaq sent them to me! Crisis averted! Thanks :-).


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I also have an audio recording of my session with their SLP and Jessie. Let me know if you need it.

(I'm not putting it for general consumption, just post op Yeson patients who may not have recorded it and need it).

I still do not get the ng-ah exercise completely - especially when and how the scales come into it. ist it doing ng-ah at each pitch or just doing ng-ah and then vary pitch while just keep doing the "ah"?

My dear friends.

I really need to talk. I have no trans friends and you ladies are the closest thing I have to family.

I feel really desolate at the moment. There is no change at all in my voice, except for breathiness and lack of range. I feel I have wasted $10,000. I went to a hernia doctor a week and a half ago and he got me to cough a lot, and like an idiot, I did as I was told. My ffs with Dr O gave me a really ugly nose with a hump, like an ancient Mayan statue ($23,000) and my final surgery is scheduled in Thailand. If that is also a disaster, I don't know if I'll be able to carry on. I came so far, and now all my surgeries have let me down and my soul is empty of hope.

My great love to you all,

Sarah.

Quote from: Teslagirl on September 07, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
My dear friends.

I really need to talk. I have no trans friends and you ladies are the closest thing I have to family.

I feel really desolate at the moment. There is no change at all in my voice, except for breathiness and lack of range. I feel I have wasted $7000. My ffs with Dr O gave me a really ugly nose with a hump, like an ancient Mayan statue ($23,000) and my final surgery is scheduled in Thailand. If that is also a disaster, I don't know if I'll be able to carry on. I came so far, and now all my surgeries have let me down and my soul is empty of hope.

Love to all,

Sarah.

Sarah,

If you are thinking of harming yourself please call a hotline.

Please don't worry. I don't think I will Kate; I'm just empty and desolate; it feels like yet more punishment for being trans and daring to hope things could get better. I've been punished for this all my life and it's the way things are. It will never change.. Mom and Dad and my brother died a few years ago, and there is nothing now for me to look forward to.

Not suicidal, I'm even rubbish at that. Just totally distraught and lonely. If only Dr Kim's surgery had worked for me. He's helped so many others. I don't come back here much any more, as the successes are so wonderful, and so unobtainable for me.

Sarah.

How long ago was the surgery? IIRC it was something like 6-8 weeks? Some coughing should be ok, although you probably should have avoided that , telling the doc that you are not allowed to do it at the moment. But I doubt it does big harm after 4 weeks. The healing process is so different for everyone that it is hard to say what is going on so far. If the web holds (you probably would know if it didn't, but you can let an ENT check with an endoscope), there will be physical changes - like you should not be able to really do a mans voice anymore and such. I hope you did some recordings pre op - of your regular voice, of your relaxed voice, of your probable pre-transition voice... to compare now and see and feel which of these now work, feel relaxed, are not accessible anymore. This will tell you that changes happened.
You know that for me the VFS was also not as incredibly a change as for some, but my regular speaking voice is not a bit higher than before and it really seems to be my natural voice now, not my trained voice. Also big changes in timbre have happened, making my voice feminine even at the lower pitches and when laughing. Those are great changes to look at. Some changes were there for me right from the start, but I was not aware of them, some changes occured later, between week 6 and 12. Not pitch changes so much though, but even that did change a little from about 160/170 to 180 Hz, probably that change was mostly because I had a better voice melody after recovering a bit more and using a wider pitch range.
Anyways - I doubt that your VFS was a failure - but maybe it does not fulfil your expectations and this can be very frustrating. Can't you go to Dr O and ask him to correct whatever went wrong with your rhinoplasty? I know, noses are difficult and lots of people have corrections, so this seems to me more the regular case than the exception, sadly.

I hope that you find a solution for all of it.

When and where will you be for the final surgery?

Quote from: anjaq on September 08, 2015, 05:13:07 AM
How long ago was the surgery? IIRC it was something like 6-8 weeks? Some coughing should be ok, although you probably should have avoided that , telling the doc that you are not allowed to do it at the moment. But I doubt it does big harm after 4 weeks. The healing process is so different for everyone that it is hard to say what is going on so far. If the web holds (you probably would know if it didn't, but you can let an ENT check with an endoscope), there will be physical changes - like you should not be able to really do a mans voice anymore and such. I hope you did some recordings pre op - of your regular voice, of your relaxed voice, of your probable pre-transition voice... to compare now and see and feel which of these now work, feel relaxed, are not accessible anymore. This will tell you that changes happened.
You know that for me the VFS was also not as incredibly a change as for some, but my regular speaking voice is not a bit higher than before and it really seems to be my natural voice now, not my trained voice. Also big changes in timbre have happened, making my voice feminine even at the lower pitches and when laughing. Those are great changes to look at. Some changes were there for me right from the start, but I was not aware of them, some changes occured later, between week 6 and 12. Not pitch changes so much though, but even that did change a little from about 160/170 to 180 Hz, probably that change was mostly because I had a better voice melody after recovering a bit more and using a wider pitch range.
Anyways - I doubt that your VFS was a failure - but maybe it does not fulfil your expectations and this can be very frustrating. Can't you go to Dr O and ask him to correct whatever went wrong with your rhinoplasty? I know, noses are difficult and lots of people have corrections, so this seems to me more the regular case than the exception, sadly.

I hope that you find a solution for all of it.

When and where will you be for the final surgery?

I second all of what anjaq said. Especially because you were using a trained voice 24/7 it may be difficult to notice a difference because what you were using all the time isn't that far off from your surgical result. But as anjaq said, the difference should be that now that's your natural voice and it would be impossible to relax back down into a male voice.

Both iKate and I were not speaking 24/7 in a trained voice preop. I had done some training and achieved a voice that was around 200 hz, but I always felt weird using it publicly so I never did. Short of saying some stuff into my phone every so often I never actually used it. But if I had been speaking in a consistent 200 hz voice, I would not have seen much of a change either because now my postop voice, depending on time of day and how tired I am, ranges from a fundamental frequency of 200-236 hz. So especially when my voice is lower and tired and closer to 200, it would have sat around where my trained voice was and I likely would not really have perceived a difference. BUT I spoke in a relaxed male voice more often than not. So the perceived difference is larger when the fundamental frequency I was used to hearing preop was 152 hz.

Also, I'd like to point out that I didn't start consistently and comfortably sitting more in the 220-236 range until almost 8 weeks postop (it really turned a corner at 7 weeks to be exact). Before then I would have bursts of comfortably speaking that high, and then more often it would sit between 190 and 200.

And also remember, Dr. Kim says some people see a large pitch shift quick, and for some people it's more gradual and can take place over 8-10 months. So while of course it's tough to wait that long, I don't think you can declare your surgery a failure at 5 or 6 weeks postop.
Try to take a breath and try to be patient.

Have you tried measuring your fundamental frequency? That actually helped me in the early weeks when I first started talking again and I'd feel like my voice was low and male sounding. I'd measure the fundamental frequency and see I'm still in the female range. Have you tried that at all and are you in a female range?

Dr. Kim says the female range is 200-250 BUT my speech pathologist says 160-185 is androgynous pitch wise and will likely be gendered male or female depending other factors (resonance, tone, cadence etc) and that 185-250 is decidedly female. I'm inclined to agree with her on that one just from observing other cis women's voices. So even if you're in the androgynous range, for 5 or 6 weeks postop, that ain't too bad.


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Yeah, I mean, 2 months minimum and a whole year for the surgery to do all it can do.

As Dana mentioned I never really used trained voice because I would absolutely fail at using it. Yes it was 195-210Hz but I got "sir" more times than not. I know some women like Julie Van Vu (Princess Joules), Andrea James and Brynn Tannehill trained their voice to sound feminine but I just couldn't do it. You can hear the lower tones in my original voice recording. In many respects my voice sounds the same but the timbre is totally different.

So give it time. You're older so healing may be slower, but it will happen for you. I haven't seen many (any?) that had an unpassable result.

Quote from: iKate on September 08, 2015, 02:03:39 PM
So give it time. You're older so healing may be slower, but it will happen for you. I haven't seen many (any?) that had an unpassable result.

^^^ this.


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I had my surgery with Dr Haben and I am about 8 weeks out with a very erratic voice. I haven't attempted to put a recording up yet because sometime the voice is fine for a few minutes but using it beyond that drives the pitch down. I spend the last three days living like a monk and then went to my mothers house yesterday for cards and dinner opening my mouth for the first time and my voice was bad. I know that problem is swelling in the cords bumping the mass up and reducing the pitch. It is something I can even feel when I try to speak. Dr Haben takes a check on the voice at three months to measure improvement and most people are healed by then. On of his voice posted a three month sample up here and Dr Haben wants another recording at 6 months. Dr Haben in his last appointment indicated to me that my healing period might be as long as 6 months and there may be changes beyond that.

As for coughing, Dr Haben also wants you to avoid it at all cost but he take the view it's going to happen sometimes. After about 3 or 4 weeks, coughing might slow healing but really shouldn't damage anything.

It is hard for me to wait for my voice to heal because I want to start using it in the correct range and locking the new voice in but healing takes time and if you are like me and the swelling is slow to leave, you have few other options other than to wait it out and don't worry about something should get better with time.

Quote from: Dana88 on September 08, 2015, 01:53:45 PM
Both iKate and I were not speaking 24/7 in a trained voice preop. I had done some training and achieved a voice that was around 200 hz, but I always felt weird using it publicly so I never did.

I think what happens here easily is: One is used to a certain pitch pre-OP - either the "male pitch" or a trained voice or just a habit of 17 or 30+ years of speaking in a higher pitched voice. Post OP, one subconsciously tries to sound the same - the brain wants continuity and thus "hear the same voice". Now if your pre OP voice was 130 Hz, its just impossible to do that post OP for most, so the brain quickly has to understand that this will not work and accept that something big has changed. Same if you have a VFS that gave you a ppitch htat is 100Hz+ higher than pre OP. However if you had a pre OP everyday pitch of 170 Hz, this is well within the range of any post-OP voice. So it is within th epossibilities of the brain to "do the same voice" as pre OP. And I believe in some, it will just do that and then the old voice has to be un-learned and one has to find a new voice. Using th eold voice would then actually either be your new relaxed voice, so the tensioning that went with increasing pitch pre OP has to be unlearned (which causes tightness in the throat). ... or the new optimal pitch is actually higher, leading to one using the voice at its lower end by trying to match the old voice, which is a strain on the voice and results in hoarseness. In that case the old pitch has to be unlearned and a new one has to be found.

At least tat is my theory about this and in part I think it is what happens to me - I still try to match my old 160-170 Hz voice a lot but by doing so I force my voice down into an area that is now not sounding well and actually can be a strain and hurt. I find it hard to concentrate on using a higher pitch now (higher than my "high pitch" pre OP), but I have a tendency to think that this actually might sound better than using a pitch that I feel comfortable in (probably because it sounds like I am used to).
Maybe it is a bad example but here are two recordings , same date, just one recording forst, then did the voice exercises and some relaxation and deliberately thought of increasing pitch just a little - basically it is not really an effort, just an awareness, and did another recording:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1o1c36x8kKl #1 - 174 Hz
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1DDvQFm3F4H #2 - 204 Hz

Hope that makes sense?

QuoteAnd also remember, Dr. Kim says some people see a large pitch shift quick, and for some people it's more gradual and can take place over 8-10 months.

This he keeps saying and some seem to have had that experience. I am still not sure what causes this. I am in doubt that actual physical changes to more than a certain degree participate in that change - some scar contraction maybe, some loss of swelling still after a long time. I would guess that if the effect that I talked about above exists, it may take part in it. So in that case it would not be the "hardware" that changes a lot after those months, but its the "software" that has to be changed to match the new hardware - with exercises, singing, trying different voices and breathing,.... or just waiting for the brain to "get it", that some change happened for real

Quote from: anjaq on September 08, 2015, 05:25:21 PM
I think what happens here easily is: One is used to a certain pitch pre-OP - either the "male pitch" or a trained voice or just a habit of 17 or 30+ years of speaking in a higher pitched voice. Post OP, one subconsciously tries to sound the same - the brain wants continuity and thus "hear the same voice". Now if your pre OP voice was 130 Hz, its just impossible to do that post OP for most, so the brain quickly has to understand that this will not work and accept that something big has changed. Same if you have a VFS that gave you a ppitch htat is 100Hz+ higher than pre OP. However if you had a pre OP everyday pitch of 170 Hz, this is well within the range of any post-OP voice. So it is within th epossibilities of the brain to "do the same voice" as pre OP. And I believe in some, it will just do that and then the old voice has to be un-learned and one has to find a new voice. Using th eold voice would then actually either be your new relaxed voice, so the tensioning that went with increasing pitch pre OP has to be unlearned (which causes tightness in the throat). ... or the new optimal pitch is actually higher, leading to one using the voice at its lower end by trying to match the old voice, which is a strain on the voice and results in hoarseness. In that case the old pitch has to be unlearned and a new one has to be found.

At least tat is my theory about this and in part I think it is what happens to me - I still try to match my old 160-170 Hz voice a lot but by doing so I force my voice down into an area that is now not sounding well and actually can be a strain and hurt. I find it hard to concentrate on using a higher pitch now (higher than my "high pitch" pre OP), but I have a tendency to think that this actually might sound better than using a pitch that I feel comfortable in (probably because it sounds like I am used to).
Maybe it is a bad example but here are two recordings , same date, just one recording forst, then did the voice exercises and some relaxation and deliberately thought of increasing pitch just a little - basically it is not really an effort, just an awareness, and did another recording:
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1o1c36x8kKl #1 - 174 Hz
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1DDvQFm3F4H #2 - 204 Hz

Hope that makes sense?
This he keeps saying and some seem to have had that experience. I am still not sure what causes this. I am in doubt that actual physical changes to more than a certain degree participate in that change - some scar contraction maybe, some loss of swelling still after a long time. I would guess that if the effect that I talked about above exists, it may take part in it. So in that case it would not be the "hardware" that changes a lot after those months, but its the "software" that has to be changed to match the new hardware - with exercises, singing, trying different voices and breathing,.... or just waiting for the brain to "get it", that some change happened for real

Yes. All of this makes TOTAL sense. For me my preop was 152. Even though I am used to it, I am literally incapable of speaking there now so I have no choice but to use a higher pitch. Had I been using a 200 hz trained voice, I would be perfectly capable of speaking there now regardless of whether or not that's where my voice actually wants to sit.


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Quote from: anjaq on September 08, 2015, 05:25:21 PM
I think what happens here easily is: One is used to a certain pitch pre-OP - either the "male pitch" or a trained voice or just a habit of 17 or 30+ years of speaking in a higher pitched voice. Post OP, one subconsciously tries to sound the same - the brain wants continuity and thus "hear the same voice". Now if your pre OP voice was 130 Hz, its just impossible to do that post OP for most, so the brain quickly has to understand that this will not work and accept that something big has changed. Same if you have a VFS that gave you a ppitch htat is 100Hz+ higher than pre OP. However if you had a pre OP everyday pitch of 170 Hz, this is well within the range of any post-OP voice. So it is within th epossibilities of the brain to "do the same voice" as pre OP. And I believe in some, it will just do that and then the old voice has to be un-learned and one has to find a new voice. Using th eold voice would then actually either be your new relaxed voice, so the tensioning that went with increasing pitch pre OP has to be unlearned (which causes tightness in the throat). ... or the new optimal pitch is actually higher, leading to one using the voice at its lower end by trying to match the old voice, which is a strain on the voice and results in hoarseness. In that case the old pitch has to be unlearned and a new one has to be found.

This does make sense.

I trained my voice a little but really did not do too much training because I was getting the surgery anyway.

When I started talking post-op, I literally felt my voice trying to use the lower pitches, giving up then going higher until it felt comfortable. That was probably the reset and recalibration my brain was doing. I believe the feedback mechanism is more than just auditory, there may be some feeling of the tension in the muscles in addition. A lot of people who train their voices have their voices up high anyway and they get used to the muscle tension, and don't feel it so I think the brain doesn't have that feedback anymore which is why they don't see a big increase in pitch.

Quote from: iKate on September 09, 2015, 10:38:32 AM
This does make sense.

I trained my voice a little but really did not do too much training because I was getting the surgery anyway.

When I started talking post-op, I literally felt my voice trying to use the lower pitches, giving up then going higher until it felt comfortable. That was probably the reset and recalibration my brain was doing. I believe the feedback mechanism is more than just auditory, there may be some feeling of the tension in the muscles in addition. A lot of people who train their voices have their voices up high anyway and they get used to the muscle tension, and don't feel it so I think the brain doesn't have that feedback anymore which is why they don't see a big increase in pitch.

Yeah, my voice did that too. First few words were raspy and low and it was that my brain was trying to speak where it used to, and then in a split second it sorta ascended up to find the comfortable new normal.


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Ok - this is interesting. I think it can explain why the change is not happening fast or maybe not at all for some people.

The part about muscle tension may be true as well, especially I believe that the muscles are so subconsciously tensed , that they will do that post op as well, which distorts the voice then, instead of increasing pitch. At least this seems what I  experience and I think this is why Dr Kim uses the Botox - he literally said that he uses the Botox and pills to re-train the brain to not produce these distortions (vocal tremors) anymore...

Haha so here is a story.

I had a conf call with a vendor yesterday. They're working on a project with us and I'm the lead on the technical side, hammering out the specs. However I had called one of the sales people before I had my surgery, actually it was while I was in the KAL lounge at JFK waiting for my flight. (The lounge food was bleh by the way, Delta Sky Club is way better). Of course I had my pre-op voice and I told him I was transitioning because he knew me by my old name. So we had a call, he said oh its cool and stuff, congrats on transition (don't they all say that?) and we were very much in the preliminary stages of the project, then I had to leave to go board my flight.

Fast forward to today where we have a call to discuss and get some final specs on the project. I joined the call. A few minutes in, I am talking and then he asked, "Wait, who is this?" I said, "It's (kate)." He then said, "wow, really! I didn't even recognize you. I was beginning to think I was on the wrong conference call. How was your trip? You were going to where, Korea?" I didn't give him all the details, I just said I went on personal business but I had fun with it.