Did anyone here have FFS and really couldn't pass for the life of them before it? Was it an absolute game changer?

Here's my situation: I started hormones 3 and a half years ago and I still barely pass/blend in. Yeah, I hate the terminology too...having to try and blend in as myself is a stupid concept. But I also don't feel like myself because of it. Most days I look in the mirror and just see a boy. I'm always the biggest woman in the room, bar none. (in every area of my body, literally) I honestly think this is the biggest issue: my frame is riiiiight outside any kind of cis female ranges and thus even the most femme features on me (full hair, femme andro facial features) still read register as male because of my frame. I don't think I've ever really passed as female for an entire day...on the street it's near impossible for me. (all the times it has happened on the street it's happened at night, and once in the day time, and the number of times in total I can count on one hand) Asides from that the vast bulk of the times I've been correctly gendered by strangers was at an old art store job I had from July of 2013 (1.5 years on HRT) to last December of 2014. (2.5 years on HRT and a nose job) During the course of the year and a half I was working there I was correctly gendered by customers in maybe 3 or 4 dozen separate instances...everything from getting my attention with "miss" and "ma'm" (which started to happen slightly more often after rhinoplasty, even if it wasn't the majority still) to two people thinking I was a female coworker they had spoken to on the phone before coming in, to three or four instances where someone would initially misgender me, and before I could catch it, correct themselves, to a kind old man I rang up for 15 minutes wishing "my boyfriend and I well." Two friends of mine who I met at a party, upon first meeting me, both thought I was FtM but "weren't quite sure." Never had a random guy hit on/catcall me, ever. Not that that's something I want, but it can be quite the litmus test.

I'm told I'm right on that cusp. But I absolutely do not feel it, especially when I look at my body and then look at others. I feel like if some area of my body, or at least most of it feel somewhere in the larger cis female range I'd be fine by now. Yeah, my voice doesn't pass either, but I've still been correctly gendered with it a few times, both when I've raised it up, not been trying with it (rare, but it happened a couple times at that job) and over the phone a few times. Yes, I over-obsess about my pass/blendability, but honestly anyone else in my position I'd be surprised if they didn't do the same, trying everything they could to find a solution and running up against barrier after barrier. I just feel anytime I attempt to get femmed up I stick out like a sore thumb, which is pretty crushing for my self image, sense of self worth, and overall life experience relating back to my internal sense of self.

Like, ok. Maybe I can't blend. Laverne Cox talks about not being able to too. But she still doesn't look...awkward. She's still happy with herself and her life and her body. Because her body still....fits enough along with most taller women and she doesn't look awkward. I mean, maybe she doesn't have complete passing privileges because she's slightly slightly bigger in some areas or whatever....but I'm slightly bigger in all areas to the point where it's blatantly noticeable. And when I try to look at role models like that, where my self comfort because the priority even beyond just blending to society, I still don't see myself being able to fit into that. I just see some weird femme guy.

I'm seeing a new therapist this month, I'm currently on a waitlist and it should go through, at the latest next month. I'm starting a new SSRI. But these are just methods to get my life more on track and productive. I feel as though, "what's the point?" if I can't even achieve the dream of being myself in more than spirit but (mostly) in body. I know it'll never be perfect, or even ideal...but just ok enough to move on in my life. That's all I want, and I even feel that is, logically, impossible. (even with FFS and seeing the results of it) I feel because of this my life has completely lost meaning. I'm at a loss what to do.

It's tough , I've been on HRT for 23.8 months. I think I'm doing all right but I can't escape the insanity of not seeing the female. When I put the make up on and I seem to be ok , but that male is still lurking. The only conclusion I've  come to is my own acceptance for what I look like and that I rather keep trying than not try. I can see a big change in the way I look putting before and after pictures side by side, but it doesn't always stop that insanity. It's like no matter how much change I still see that guy.

Lemons, I've read a lot of the posts you have made over the past few months about your difficulties with passing, but I have to say, I'm somewhat confused. It sounds like you really do care about being as passable as humanly possible, but then you insist on doing things like wearing your hair short, which I'm sorry, but I have miss-gendered cisgendered women before because they had short/androgynous haircuts. Or some people had said in the previous thread you might want to thin your eyebrows a little, which really does make a huge difference in your appearance, but you said you just hadn't been keeping up with it. Or you say your voice isn't passable at all, but then you insist that appearance is your biggest problem. You seem to just ignore most of the advice other people give you. I'm having a very hard time figuring out what it is that you actually want. I've seen your pictures, and I believe that you could pass if you put your effort in the right areas, and you don't really need FFS to be passable per say. It probably would help with a few things, but it's not going to change your body at all, which you also seem to have a lot of issues with. I think at this point, the only thing I can really tell you, is that you need to work on self-acceptance. For most of us, transition is not a perfect process, and believe me, if there was a way for me to have a perfect non-transgender female body, I would do it in a second. But sometimes you have to learn to accept that some things are out of your reach, and to find a way to be happy with the things that you have. And from what I can tell, the only thing keeping you from being happy with what you have right now is yourself.

ditto

Hello, So sorry you are having a *hitty time. I send a big hug 


I have found that " passing " is all about being confident. I sometimes get mis-gendered but it is their perception, their understanding of what being " female " is. I know I'm a girl and NOTHING anyone can ever do or say, will change that fact.

It is other peoples that have a problem not us. ( If I may include you all ? )

Be yourself and everyone else will understand  If they choose not too *uck them ! ( Not literally  although  )

Paula, <3 X.

Quote from: Miyuki on September 20, 2015, 11:16:13 AM
Lemons, I've read a lot of the posts you have made over the past few months about your difficulties with passing, but I have to say, I'm somewhat confused. It sounds like you really do care about being as passable as humanly possible, but then you insist on doing things like wearing your hair short, which I'm sorry, but I have miss-gendered cisgendered women before because they had short/androgynous haircuts. Or some people had said in the previous thread you might want to thin your eyebrows a little, which really does make a huge difference in your appearance, but you said you just hadn't been keeping up with it. Or you say your voice isn't passable at all, but then you insist that appearance is your biggest problem. You seem to just ignore most of the advice other people give you. I'm having a very hard time figuring out what it is that you actually want. I've seen your pictures, and I believe that you could pass if you put your effort in the right areas, and you don't really need FFS to be passable per say. It probably would help with a few things, but it's not going to change your body at all, which you also seem to have a lot of issues with. I think at this point, the only thing I can really tell you, is that you need to work on self-acceptance. For most of us, transition is not a perfect process, and believe me, if there was a way for me to have a perfect non-transgender female body, I would do it in a second. But sometimes you have to learn to accept that some things are out of your reach, and to find a way to be happy with the things that you have. And from what I can tell, the only thing keeping you from being happy with what you have right now is yourself.

I've started moving into correcting all these things...still not terribly hopeful which sucks...I don't know.  I really wanna blend into the world as myself.

Hi lemons,

Even though I mostly unquestionably pass, I really don't let it bother me as much when I don't. However, I am more likely to be misgendered and deadnamed by people I know. Most aren't malicious, it's just that they've grown accustomed to me.

What did kick it up a notch for me was my hair and my voice. My hair being longer and in a certain pattern with the temples filling in gets me read as female all the time. I couldn't reliably do it with short hair.

But at some point I just don't let it bother me much. I haven't been misgendered by strangers in a few months but if I was, I would simply correct them and move on. When I corrected people before they would apologize and even feel a bit embarrassed.

Let's face it, we all have varying degrees of testosterone damage. Maybe FFS is for you but do the virtual FFS first and see. Then maybe think about some body contouring to address your body issues.  How are your boobs? THat kind of helps, since standing straight I can't see my toes anymore and they definitely scream female.

Good luck!

Quote from: lemons on September 20, 2015, 01:35:01 PM
I've started moving into correcting all these things...still not terribly hopeful which sucks...I don't know.  I really wanna blend into the world as myself.

I understand that, I really do. I care a lot about passing too, because I think that to some extent other people have to really believe that you are female in order to accept you completely as one. I plan to have FFS too when I can afford it, even though I don't necessarily need it, because I want the face other people see to be the way I see myself. But, I have also come to accept that I'm not always going to blend in. I'm 6 feet tall, and my frame is larger than what a cisgendered woman would normally have, I wear a size 12 women's shoe size (sometimes 11 1/2), and I generally do look huge when placed next to most women. On the other hand, my shoe size is 1 - 1/2 size larger than my mom's, I am only a couple of inches taller than her, and she has a larger frame too. Lots of women have issues with their appearance, but it doesn't stop them from finding acceptance from those around them and enjoying their lives. Even if you don't "blend in" as a women, you are not any worse off than all the other women in the world that don't blend in. And if they pass and are accepted as their gender by the world around them, there's no reason you can't be either.

Lemons,

I'm really sorry you are having a tough time. I have had my own struggles recently, with similar themes; I'm convinced I don't totally pass, and that's really important to me. The thing is though, people around me (friends, family) tell me I do pass, and regularly compliment me on my looks, but I don't listen, I don't believe it or take it in. Instead my mind focuses on things that I hate about myself (see my thread about feet for evidence). I spend so much time stressing and being depressed about things that I can't change, convincing myself that I am some kind of impossible case, that it's stopping me from living.

I have on occasion seen pics of you, but they have often disappeared by the time I see your posts, because you delete them so quickly. You, from what I remember, are young and slim and attractive. But I recall your presentation being somewhat androgynous. So saying that you have tried everything isn't completely true. Grow your hair, work on your presentation. There aren't many women I know who could get away with short hair without being occasionally misgendered; the women who tend to look best with short hair are small pixie like ones.

Its hypocritical for me to say this because I struggle to apply the same to my own life, but you need to get out of the spiral of negative thinking. You will just be constantly reinforcing these 'flaws' in your own mind.

The other thing to consider is this; some of the happiest trans women I know don't pass flawlessly. They look good because they know how to present themselves and what works for them, and they come across in a confident way, but they are readable as trans. Does it stop them from doing anything? Not in the slightest. The chances are that most of us who didn't start transitioning as a teenager will have some degree of masculinity in our appearance, and I know how hard this is, but we all have to come to terms with that at some point, and accept ourselves for who we are. Again it's not easy to do this and I know it all too well but just take it one day at a time.

Quote from: Miyuki on September 20, 2015, 01:56:12 PM
I understand that, I really do. I care a lot about passing too, because I think that to some extent other people have to really believe that you are female in order to accept you completely as one. I plan to have FFS too when I can afford it, even though I don't necessarily need it, because I want the face other people see to be the way I see myself. But, I have also come to accept that I'm not always going to blend in. I'm 6 feet tall, and my frame is larger than what a cisgendered woman would normally have, I wear a size 12 women's shoe size (sometimes 11 1/2), and I generally do look huge when placed next to most women. On the other hand, my shoe size is 1 - 1/2 size larger than my mom's, I am only a couple of inches taller than her, and she has a larger frame too. Lots of women have issues with their appearance, but it doesn't stop them from finding acceptance from those around them and enjoying their lives. Even if you don't "blend in" as a women, you are not any worse off than all the other women in the world that don't blend in. And if they pass and are accepted as their gender by the world around them, there's no reason you can't be either.

Yes, but what happens when you don't see any women who are your size?  I don't mean height...height wise I do see women my height....size wise I don't.

I live in a downtown area next to a university you could get a perfect scientific sampling of women's shapes. There are every possible shape , young , old , big ,small. tall, short muscular, thin you name it we got it.

Quote from: lemons on September 20, 2015, 04:34:23 PM
Yes, but what happens when you don't see any women who are your size?  I don't mean height...height wise I do see women my height....size wise I don't.

You could always start hanging out with me I guess. But I've seen your pictures, and really, there are women out there who are as big as you, if not bigger. Maybe you just spend a lot of time around more petite women, and that makes you feel big by comparison, but in reality there are some pretty large women out there if you look hard enough. Look, worst case scenario, you could always go with my all purpose transition contingency plan and get yourself some extra large breast implants. Then people will be too focused on staring at your chest to even notice that the rest of your body is a bit on the large side.

I'm thinking for myself that large breasts would be cool.

First, I think non-passing trans women can be really beautiful anyway. Also there's a vulnerability to being this way that a cis woman wouldn't have. With a bit of confidence, it's really kind of charming. So, even if I can't ever pass, I'll be happy to get to that point.

Second, I think I  just echo what Miyuki inititially said. I've seen a few of your threads, which have been interesting because you're a very similar height/build to me. You rock an andro look and it really suits you. But, it's the kind of look a girl would do if she wanted to look boyish. So, you're trying to pull of a look as if you're a cis female who is trying to look like a male. I think most trans-women wouldn't be able to pass doing that. It still works for you though. I mean you're really just fine as you are.

I seem to be almost passable with long hair (hairpiece), makeup and a skirt. I just know I wouldn't even be close to that if I tried to do an andro look that would leave many cis women looking unpassable. I think I likely won't ever be able to wear all the things a perfect 5'4" cis-female can wear and still expect to pass/blend. But, at the same time, I feel like it's ok for me not to pass blend, despite the disadvantages.

Hi Lemons,

I've been following your posts and I truly empathize with you. However, one thing that really helped me in the past until now is to be at peace that I am biologically born male and my body has been damaged by years of being on T. So the whole comparing our body structure to a cis gendered female will ultimately defeat us in more ways than one. However, I have learned how to dress and accentuate my body that gets noticed positively. By the way, I have been on HRT for more than a year and I've only been misgendered a few times and that's been awhile (like 9 months ago).

I think the best possible solution with your dilemma is to be at peace of who you are and be a better version of yourself everyday. I know it sounds cliche but it has helped me in my transition. Do baby steps and keep going at it.

Keep that chin up and stay beautiful as always. By the way I rarely give my opinion/s on passability, but you pass in my books 

Hugs,

April

Quote from: Miyuki on September 20, 2015, 04:53:42 PM
You could always start hanging out with me I guess. But I've seen your pictures, and really, there are women out there who are as big as you, if not bigger. Maybe you just spend a lot of time around more petite women, and that makes you feel big by comparison, but in reality there are some pretty large women out there if you look hard enough. Look, worst case scenario, you could always go with my all purpose transition contingency plan and get yourself some extra large breast implants. Then people will be too focused on staring at your chest to even notice that the rest of your body is a bit on the large side.

A male frame with large boobs wouldn't work. I really don't think you guys get what I mean when I say I'm large framed.  I am large framed, all over.  Big hands, big feet, big muscley legs, big waist, big big head.  Just big all over.  Outside cis female norms, even the big ones.  Big.  Here.  This was me pre transition.  Notice how I'm built thin yet I'm still bigger than everyone else.  This is what I mean:

(far right with the flower in mouth)



I have never seen a photo of me past puberty where I was next to a woman who was relatively the same size as me.  Never, ever.  Still don't.

And getting at what saraht said...I am actually quite feminine internally.  Here's the issue: I look absurd in these clothes.  Which is why I sway away from it  It's less a "that's not me" and more a "I'm super self conscious and don't want to look like a clown/drag queen."  The few times I've gone out all gussied up I got NOTHING but hard confused slightly worried stares, everywhere.  And these were all recent too. (within this year)

Quote from: carmenkate on September 20, 2015, 06:09:27 PM
Hi Lemons,

I've been following your posts and I truly empathize with you. However, one thing that really helped me in the past until now is to be at peace that I am biologically born male and my body has been damaged by years of being on T. So the whole comparing our body structure to a cis gendered female will ultimately defeat us in more ways than one. However, I have learned how to dress and accentuate my body that gets noticed positively. By the way, I have been on HRT for more than a year and I've only been misgendered a few times and that's been awhile (like 9 months ago).

I think the best possible solution with your dilemma is to be at peace of who you are and be a better version of yourself everyday. I know it sounds cliche but it has helped me in my transition. Do baby steps and keep going at it.

Keep that chin up and stay beautiful as always. By the way I rarely give my opinion/s on passability, but you pass in my books 

Hugs,

April

Passing in controlled photos is different than in person.  I can pass fine in photos.  I rarely do in person.

I am 6ft tall, have giant tree frog hands, according to ScubaPro I have "Super Extra Large" feet, a barrel chest, deep then deep male radio announcer voice and balding since 14. I've been on HRT for 6 years now, it hasn't changed a thing beyond how I feel about myself and being trans.

99% of passing is attitude. Plus, I also go out of my way to have as much of an unambiguous female presentation as possible. Be it in my preferred girlie-girl mode or a lot more casual jeans and a nice top. Sure its a pain, hair, makeup etc.. Well, welcome to womanhood.

When I was in my 20's, totally unsure of myself, zero to negative self-confidence I was always in the fog of "Some Guy in a Dress". I exuded it. I have no doubt today other's picked up on it. Any wonder I stopped?, Twice?

I admire, don't understand, even envious of those that can take a "F the world" attitude and present however they want and don't give a rat's ass what other's think. I'm definitely NOT one of them. However I do know I can never be unreadable. So far I haven't had rocks thrown at me or worse. I haven't even expected that much after my last two attempts at transitioning.

Quote from: lemons on September 20, 2015, 09:44:19 PM
A male frame with large boobs wouldn't work. I really don't think you guys get what I mean when I say I'm large framed.  I am large framed, all over.  Big hands, big feet, big muscley legs, big waist, big big head.  Just big all over.  Outside cis female norms, even the big ones.  Big.  Here.  This was me pre transition.  Notice how I'm built thin yet I'm still bigger than everyone else.  This is what I mean:

(far right with the flower in mouth)



I have never seen a photo of me past puberty where I was next to a woman who was relatively the same size as me.  Never, ever.  Still don't.

And getting at what saraht said...I am actually quite feminine internally.  Here's the issue: I look absurd in these clothes.  Which is why I sway away from it  It's less a "that's not me" and more a "I'm super self conscious and don't want to look like a clown/drag queen."  The few times I've gone out all gussied up I got NOTHING but hard confused slightly worried stares, everywhere.  And these were all recent too. (within this year)

Passing in controlled photos is different than in person.  I can pass fine in photos.  I rarely do in person.

Well, what I can say, is that based on the recent pictures you have posted of yourself, I can't find a reason why you couldn't be considered passable in most situations. Honestly, I know controlled pictures don't tell the whole story, and I could probably give you much better advice if I could see you in person, but I'm not sure it would help. I don't think you look bad at all. In fact I think is several ways you look better than I do, and I pass most of the time, and in theory we are about the same physical size. What I've been trying to say though, is that you need to stop focusing on things like your size. It just doesn't go anywhere, because things like a large frame or large hands/feet are things that there is currently no way to fix. So if these things are really bad problems for you, I am sorry for that, but you are going to have to find a way to live with them, because there's not really anything else you can do. If you want to improve your ability to pass though, I'm sure you would succeed if you listened to the advice others have given here.

I was blessed with broad shoulders and absolutely no hips. I had some surgery done (6 times) on my rear end which also reduced the muscle mass considerably there. It was not elective surgery. Fortunately, I have a fat head. Seriously. That lessens the effect of having broad shoulders. I also use a slightly lighter shade of powdered foundation than my skin and then a very light blush on top of that. I always wear colored lip gloss. And I have a very feminine hair cut and I spend time every morning working with it to look nice.

The biggest thing for me was to get my weight down from a normal 175 to 140 which is still 10 pounds above the "normal" line for my height. Well actually, at the first of the year, I was down to 105 but I had some marital problems that I'm working through and I've gained back enough to stay stable. My calorie intake is incredibly small but as long as my weight is stable, I'm good with that.

More than anything, it's all about attitude. After you can do the things that you must do, you must have confidence in yourself. That was the biggest game changer for me.

I believe that this is my first time seeing a picture of you. I'm not seeing any of what you're describing. Your feet are cut off in the pic, your hands are hidden, and with your arms crossed I can't really get an accurate idea of your body shape. From what I can tell, your legs are not overly muscular at all, your shoulders aren't that broad or big in any way, your waist looks fine, the weight I'm seeing is in your hips and that's not a bad thing.