Ah Melissa,

Don't be shy - "I just am" - Yep I would agree 100% but why are you "just am"

Steph

Ok...I'll have a go at this.

I just am a woman because I am feminine and I feel that way.  I am much happier being recognized as a woman and hate being recognized as a male.  I relate to other females much more than I relate to males.  I have a need to be pretty.  I am an emotional being and need to feel.  I just am.

Melissa

My SO asked me the other evening why, since I've never "been a woman," how can I think/feel that I am one?  It was a question that required either silence or volumes and I chose the former.  But it gave me some motivation for thought.

I realize that I could have asked her how she knew she was a woman since the definition is impossible to nail down but it's all about biology for her.  What's between your legs (".  . . how God made you."), is what you are as far as she's concerned.  Right now, I think that I'm more feminine than masculine because I feel more attuned to those things that our society defines as feminie.  As Melissa said,

Quote from: melissa_girl on February 01, 2006, 07:22:37 PM
relate to other females much more than I relate to males.  I have a need to be pretty. I am an emotional being and need to feel.

All of those things, of course, are severely discouraged, even punished, if a male of any age shows them in our culture.  I'm expressing myself more and more honestly these days and I feel like I'm getting my butt kicked.  So, do I want to be feminine because as a man I am not allowed to live this way?  Or is it that I just am?  I think it might be both but, as I've paraphrased before, feminine is as feminine feels.  Objectifying it by trying to define it doesn't work.

helen

I hate to throw a spanner in the works but at one stage we were entirely the same neither man or female. Genitals do not completely distinguish a female from male it happens in the brain before we are thrown into this world of illusion. I have just been told I have a different set of chromosones than the normal male or the normal female (somewhere closest to a female though as there are xx and something else in there) and I dont actually understand it but the test prooved to me that I was different. If you think you are female then you are, if you think you are a duck then quak like a duck.

Someone posted the comment "woman have had a lifetime to be the woman that they are and we have to cram everything in to a short period of our life". Take estrogen away from the GG and give them T and you will still find they will look like a male but are very much a female in their brain.

Sara.

Non-trans GG that is. Just to clarify that comment about giving a GG T. Those of us who've felt male all our lives, just get our bodies to look like we feel.

Dennis

Quote from: Sara on February 02, 2006, 12:34:02 AM
I have just been told I have a different set of chromosones than the normal male or the normal female (somewhere closest to a female though as there are xx and something else in there) and I dont actually understand it but the test prooved to me that I was different.

https://www.susans.org/wiki/Klinefelter%27s_syndrome

Melissa

As my mother always put it "Sugar, spice and everything nice?"

Quote from: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 12:45:36 PM
As my mother always put it "Sugar, spice and everything nice?"

If that's the case, what is a transsexual made of?  >

Melissa

I dont know I never thought of that?

Sugar, spice and everything nice, but dipped in the mud and left out in the cold.

LOL Thats a good one Kim. 

Quote from: Kimberly on February 13, 2006, 04:06:33 PM
Sugar, spice and everything nice, but dipped in the mud and left out in the cold.

That explains it.

Melissa

Quote from: melissa_girl on February 13, 2006, 01:10:52 PM
If that's the case, what is a transsexual made of?  >

This is one I just can't resist.

Darn sure are not made with nuts and bolts.

Quote from: Erica78 on February 13, 2006, 12:45:36 PM
As my mother always put it "Sugar, spice and everything nice?"

What!  No hot motor oil and tequila?  I know a few ladies that might disagree.

And knowing them, I might have to also!  >

helen

Some disjointed musings on the subject;
Female is the default state of humanity, we all start out as female, men are highly modified or specialised versions, depending on a cascade of hormonally induced changes of such complexity one wonders if there are any normal men?  So different but essentially the same.

That Japanese theatre where women's parts are played by men - reason being that only a man has the sensitivity to properly play a woman - (they said that not me, just has to make you wonder?  )

Watching a TV documentary (and also reading in Scientific magazines) that there is no such thing as race, that the obvious differences are just artifacts - I find great difficulty in believing this, thinking this must be PC pseudoscience.  However, this seems to be the accepted view by learned people who should know. 
Now if this is the case with race, why not with the sexes.  I mean there is no characteristic of men or women that there is no examples of in the other sex.   I can think of insensitive women I know, of empathetic men.  I bet everyone here can call to mind any characteristic of either men or women that also can appear in the opposite sex - and that is not explained away by effeminate men or masculine women.

It has been said earlier in this thread, and this is my contention - that despite all the obvious differences that appear to hit you in the eye, essentially there is no real difference between men & women

In my opinion, there is no difference between men and women not related to reproduction, the associated hormones and their effects on mood and the statistical differences in physical size and strength.

Everything else is a product of society. The deep social difference between men and women is that men are afraid that women will laugh at them while women are afraid men will rape and/or kill them. All the outward signs and symbols of femininity grow out of that characteristic of society.

After many discussions with my two boys and four girls and my four plus years living among women, that's what I think. I could be wrong. 

Karen

I have 2 children.  A boy and a girl.  What's amazing is the difference between whet they were naturally inclined to like without us as parents leading them one way or the other.  My little girl is heavily into stuffed bears, princesses, flowers, dolls, making herself look "pretty" and many other girly things.  My boy was naturally drawn towards gadgets, cars, sports and many other boy things.  They do have some stuff in common, like they both like drawing, although my girl (who is only 4) seems to have a natural talent in that area, they both like pets, and they both like watching movies.

My point is, there are differences with male and female brains which is more than just societal.  I completely agree that society does play a big role in defining what makes a male and what makes a female, but it really is a combination of nature and nurture.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on February 15, 2006, 11:01:03 AM
I have 2 children.  A boy and a girl.  What's amazing is the difference between whet they were naturally inclined to like without us as parents leading them one way or the other.  My little girl is heavily into stuffed bears, princesses, flowers, dolls, making herself look "pretty" and many other girly things.  My boy was naturally drawn towards gadgets, cars, sports and many other boy things.  They do have some stuff in common, like they both like drawing, although my girl (who is only 4) seems to have a natural talent in that area, they both like pets, and they both like watching movies.

My point is, there are differences with male and female brains which is more than just societal.  I completely agree that society does play a big role in defining what makes a male and what makes a female, but it really is a combination of nature and nurture.

Melissa

I played with barbies when I was younger but then again I also lived out the first few years as a femme. I dont know I guess Im weird. It transitioned to strapping M80s to kens legs and lighting the fuse so I dont know.

Quote from: Melissa on February 15, 2006, 11:01:03 AMMy little girl is heavily into stuffed bears, princesses, flowers, dolls, making herself look "pretty" and many other girly things.

IDENTITY:
Although women *tend* to be feminine on average, those traits don't seem to make one female. Janet Reno, for example, is very much a woman. But I can't imagine her having played with dolls, flowers, and trying to be "pretty."

The catch is, while genetic women can pretty much do and act any way they darn well please and STILL be considered female (if they identify thusly), transsexual women are not afforded that same luxury - not even by themselves, which is interesting. You see it all over the forums... many of us find ourselves searching for feminine traits (emotional and physical) to "prove" that we're really female. And while that's understandable - since we don't have the physical evidence to support our internal feelings - it's also a bit hypocritical. Chasing a ghost of self-doubt.

No, whatever IT is - this elusive identity thing - it seems to exist independent, unjustifiable, and sometimes downright rebellious of stereotype.

PHYSICAL SEX:
Hormones. For me anyway, hormones define when I'd consider myself "female" physically. I could have facial surgery, breast implants, and SRS... but without hormones I think I'd still feel the dysphoria with my body. Conversely, with nothing BUT hormones I *think* I would finally start to feel female, though I might remain unhappy with my appearance. There's satisfaction in knowing my *body* thinks it's female, which is what HRT would provide. A bit tricky though, since post-menopausal women are still female, regardless of hormone levels. But still, for me, HRT seems to be the foundation for finally feeling female physically.

LEGALLY:
SRS or perhaps 2 years on HRT. I think the legal perspective is to keep functioning penises out of places they don't belong, such as women's rooms, etc. It's not an ethical or identity issue, it's just a practical concern for women's safety and privacy.

Here's what makes a woman or man that seems to transcend all different cases:

It's what you define yourself to be.  If you define yourself as a woman, then you are one.  If you define yourself as a man, then you are one.  Even if other people see differently, this doesn't negate the fact that you are who you are.  Also, keep in mind that calling yourself something and defining yourself as something are 2 different things.

Melissa