Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

Medical Evidence

Started by kellizgirl, October 30, 2015, 03:32:16 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kellizgirl

To make a long story short I am in process of transitioning and my wife and I have hit an impasse. She contends this is a spiritual disorder I counter that this is a medical condition not a spiritual problem. Our counselor wants us botht o bring in evidence to support our claims and we will look at them at our next session. So I am asking you my sisters for help either send me (at kellizgirl@gmail.com) any medical evidence you may have or point me in the direction to find it. Please help me, thank you.
  •  

stephaniec

seems to me this debate will lead nowhere.  There will be no resolution and I question why a therapist would do this. Just my own opinion and mean no harm. Science against religion , does God exist.
  •  

Deborah

I'll post a website where there are a lot of studies that support the medical condition position if I can locate it again.

The problem you will likely face from one who is arguing a spiritual problem position is that while the scientific evidence lends credence to a medical condition position it does not provide any definitive proof..  Additionally, I am not sure there will ever be definitive proof to the level that the other side demands.  The reason is that the medical position would have to be verified by large scale reproducible experiments to satisfy their standard.  That would mean taking a large group of pregnant women and then medically altering their hormone levels to see what effects that would have on a baby.  That is not ethical and will never be done.

So what we are left with are general studies with fairly small sample sizes and inferences from animal studies.  A reasonable person will conclude that this is most likely a medical condition from this evidence, but it is not enough to convince an opponent who is ideologically entrenched on the other side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
  •  

Cindy

Download the standard of care 7 from www.wpath.org

It is all there
  •  

Deborah

You can also get that as an app if you have an iPhone.  It's a good reference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
  •  

Deborah

Take a look at these.  Lots of links here to the actual studies.  You might be up all night reading,  ;D.

Results of transsexual brain studies
http://openmindedhealth.com/2012/01/results-of-transsexual-brain-studies/

References 5.a: Causes – Hormone exposure – Human studies
http://www.cakeworld.info/transsexualism/what-causes/hormone-exposure-humans

References 5.b: Causes – Hormone exposure – Animal studies
http://www.cakeworld.info/transsexualism/what-causes/hormone-exposure-animals

References 6.a: Causes – Genetic factors – Human studies
http://www.cakeworld.info/transsexualism/what-causes/genetic-factors-humans

References 6.b: Causes – Genetic factors – Animal studies
http://www.cakeworld.info/transsexualism/what-causes/genetic-factors-animals

Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
  •  

Kathleenmarie

There is no smoking gun proof.  You are who you are.  No research while point to xyz to prove to your spouse that this is why you are the way you are, as to spiritual things, I would assume Christianity, and the thing is, the Bible does condemn homosexuality, which is a broad sweeping term for anything out of the ordinary.   My suggestion, what me and my wife did, is get to the bottom of wether or not the love we shard for each other was as strong as we believed it to be, it was, after that it was simply a matter of deciding how best to achieve what I wanted, while at the same time giving my wife consideration with things that made her uncomfortable.  I don't know if that helped at all, I really have not had the typical experience.
  •  

Laura_7

There has to be a biological connection.

Transgender people have been around in all cultures, so its not a social thing.

There are chemicals known to result in a much higher rate of transgender offspring.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,196827.msg1761814.html#msg1761814

There are differences in brains of men and women.
Transgender brains correspond to the gender they identify with, regardless if they have been on hrt.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,92027.msg668983.html#msg668983
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,186458.msg1664590.html#msg1664590

And this might help end the debate:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,195129.msg1740788.html#msg1740788

Its an emotional letter by an accepting parent...
summing up a few restraints people might have...
  •  

Joi

Hi!  Here's a link to an American Medical Assn. podcast that is very convincing.  It's long, but very convincing.  In a nutshell - these things were decided before we took our 1st breath.
Hope this helps!
Hugz,
Joi

AMA Podcast 2011


http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html


  •  

Kathleenmarie

All of the evidence is circumstantial though, I think people that are determined not to believe or accept will only be persuaded if you can point to this one little thing and say, see, if they have this, then there gonna be trans, I know that's simple, but most people are simple.
  •  

Ms Grace

I guess it depends on how one defines "spiritual" in this context... but can't it be both? My point being that if there was a spiritual impetus/root for anything then it is going to manifest in the physical/medical anyway. Everything is connected!

I have to wonder at your wife's motives here... if being trans is spiritually founded is she contending that it is an "abnormality" that can be "cured" with meditation and/or prayer?

I am not religious but I have a deeply spiritual outlook on mundane/physical life. For myself I feel/believe that being trans is a manifestation of my soul in my physical body and expressed through my psychology. It's all me and it's all part of why I am trans. Had my body been genetically female then I would have been cis not trans (I presume). Or were my soul/spirit/mind more aligned to the masculine then I would be OK with being genetically/cis male. I could argue either way that what goes on in my head is just a medical/physical/psychological thing or it's a spiritual thing but, to me anyway, it is not exclusively one or the other. And I am comfortable with that!

Back in the early 1990s when I first investigated transitioning I desperately wanted there to be some medical proof for me - like I was XXY or something. I wasn't. I struggled with the spiritual side too - "I was born physically male so there must be lessons I need to learn as a 'man'". In fact I ended up with that spiritual albatross around my neck for the next twenty years. Then it occurred to me that I I was only boxing myself in. If I accepted that there was a spiritual aspect to life and that being in a physical body was not the be all and end all of my life, that my life lessons were possibly not about accepting myself as a genetic male but as a transgender woman, accepting who I was at my core and expressing that in the physical world... well that was something altogether different. My life changed rapidly after that realisation. Within five months I was on HRT, and eight months after that I was living full time as Grace and the happiest I've ever been.

I didn't mean to get all philosophical on you. This has just been my own experience but I believe it is fairly easy to counter the spiritual argument as long as you are working outside of religious strictures.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
  •  

kaitylynn

I have a couple of cis friends who have asked if there is any "medical proof" and we all started researching independently.  They are completely accepting, so it was just to satisfy a collective curiosity.  Kathleen is right, just about everything we found was interesting, but lacked anything that we could conclude to be "concrete".

I personally believe that there is a biological imperative.  It all started at far too early an age for there to be any other explanation.

Spiritual arguments are circular and rarely will any sort of consensus be reached.  They devolve into academic arguments or ideological fights.
Katherine Lynn M.

You've got a light that always guides you.
You speak of hope and change as something good.
Live your truth and know you're not alone.

The restart - 20-Oct-2015
Legal name and gender change affirmed - 27-Sep-2016
Breast Augmentation (Dr. Gupta) - 27-Aug-2018
  •  

JoanneB

I look at the search for any reason to explain my GID this way; What difference does it make?

Medically speaking I am in the right age group to be a DES baby. It might also be Kliefelter's Syndrome. It might be because my mom was a smoker. Perhaps other enviromental reasons growing up where I did. It can be from any one of a number of unknown reason yet to be discovered

Emotionally/spiritually, Who knows. Whatever it might be it had to have happened at a very young age. I wanted to be a girl since like age four.

The "Fix", or treatment plan, is still the same. Feel your way through the darkness untill I find a place where living is more comfortable
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
  •  

Jill F

^^^THIS^^^

It's irrelevant at this point as to why I am transgender.  It's not like knowing "why" would or could change anything.  I'm trans, I've always been trans, and I will always be trans.  And you know what?  There's nothing wrong with that.  I dealt with it by taking HRT and transitioning, which is pretty much everything in my power that I could do about it.

If this is as good as it gets, then so be it, but I'm hoping that my surgery next year will be the final nail in the GD coffin.
  •  

Deborah

Well, for the OP it's not about convincing or justifying herself but rather to show her wife what the casual evidence might be.  If her wife is arguing the spiritual argument from a Christian perspective then an alternative explanation is necessary to reconcile the idea in her mind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
  •  

Rejennyrated

Actually those who claim there is no smoking gun and no solid scientific evidence are twenty years out of date!!!!

There is - it is well understood, and I had to endure a whole week of lectures on it during my first year at medical school in a module on "gender identity and disorders of sexual development".

Now I know the USA is a little like a backward third world country scientifically which, because of all the hard line religious nutters, often takes quite a long time to catch up with the rest of the world, but seriously? No evidence? Bollocks! Even one of my fellow students, a former biomedical researcher has written papers on this subject and trust me there is now a LOT of SOLID evidence.

Its late here and I cant be bothered to find links and list them - but a quick search on a proper decent medical papers database like pubmed should easily find you 50 authoritative papers on the subject...

It's got absolute NOTHING to do with a spiritual problem - it is pure science and anyone who thinks there is any room for doubt about that is, in my honest view, badly misinformed. (I almost want to say an idiot, but I won't because I realise that would be rather rude, but honestly its really not in any way a supportable or rational position given the weight of evidence that I KNOW with 100% certainty exists!!!)
  •  

Laura_7

Quote from: kaitylynn on October 30, 2015, 06:10:38 PM
I have a couple of cis friends who have asked if there is any "medical proof" and we all started researching independently.  They are completely accepting, so it was just to satisfy a collective curiosity.  Kathleen is right, just about everything we found was interesting, but lacked anything that we could conclude to be "concrete".

I personally believe that there is a biological imperative.  It all started at far too early an age for there to be any other explanation.

Spiritual arguments are circular and rarely will any sort of consensus be reached.  They devolve into academic arguments or ideological fights.

If there are any chemical substances which change the likelyhood of being tg then there are biological connections.
There are, the substances can be looked up.

The same is true for being gay by the way.
There was a product resulting in a far higher rate of lesbian offspring.
The product is off the market for quite some time.

This can all be told in a quiet and non emotional way...

Its simply that people have picked up something and stick to it in an emotional way.
  •  

iKate

If she's using religion as a defense you're wasting your time. Religion "disproves" science by saying, "god said so," or "it's in the bible" or my personal favorite - "God does not make mistakes."

But if she's more open minded, as Cindy said, WPATH SoC will explain it.
  •  

cindianna_jones

If I were to add anything (especially to the AMA video which is truly exceptional) it would be this:

We are. We are here. We exist. There are a number of us from every walk of life, every background, every age. If someone chose to do it, we could be counted.

No one doubts the existence of bees, if they've been stung. They exist too. They too can be counted.

Some of us have known since early childhood, some experience the need later in their life. It doesn't matter. We are here. We could be counted. We've always been here. That is a significant scientific data point in the manner of rational thought. The proposition is supported by this data and it is now a working theory. No matter how many times you drop a ball, it will fall. That was a data point that sparked the "just a theory" of gravity.

This could have been resolved years ago had we the impetus to look into it as a society. But frankly, our society just doesn't care about the minority. Pick any minority and until they can be supported by another group, the impetus for change, for research, for anything, it never happens. Just look at what the gays and lesbians have done for US!

I'm hopeful that one day we will know for a fact what causes this. But we do know that it happens. This is established. We know it is not a learned behavior. This too is established. We know that nearly everyone who self identifies with something other than who they appear to be, would rather be "just normal." This can be observed. And in terms of scientific evidence. This is it.

Now all you have to do is help someone understand the difference between rational thought and irrational thought. You'll also have to define the term proposition, which is just a guess or belief, and theory based on evidence, so it's pretty much a fact. You know, like gravity.

Now with all that said. It is impossible to argue with someone's belief system. I certainly don't won't argue beliefs with anyone. Not only is it counterproductive but we all have our personal beliefs of some sort or another. I don't like to go there. I too am of the opinion that the therapist is about to shame a belief system to some degree because it has no evidence either. It might work. It may backfire. There is certainly more "evidence" for our trans existence than is supported from the scripture side for all of humanity's existence. I'm talking scientific methodology here and I'm not bashing nor do I wish to minimize anyone's personal beliefs.

And if you do decide to pull a scriptural verse, check out the eunuch references in the King James or older translations of the Bible. Subsequent editions have changed the words to lose the whole eunuch thing to make it more... I don't know what, actually. I think that current day Bible writers don't like the fact that people used to self emasculate themselves or that WE continue that proud tradition. One of the verses actually says that self inflicted eunuchs are closer to God and shall be rewarded... or something to that effect. And technically by that simple definition we are self inflicted eunuchs, am I right? But I really don't like that definition. I prefer woman, she, her, you know the drill.

"Just the facts, ma'am."

Cindi
  •  

iKate

Quote from: Rejennyrated on October 30, 2015, 06:58:12 PM
Now I know the USA is a little like a backward third world country scientifically which, because of all the hard line religious nutters, often takes quite a long time to catch up with the rest of the world, but seriously? No evidence? Bollocks! Even one of my fellow students, a former biomedical researcher has written papers on this subject and trust me there is now a LOT of SOLID evidence.

LOL, what? In SF or NYC or pretty much any major city you will hardly find "religious nutters."

Also, I'm afraid to disappoint you but someone here with good insurance in a place like NYC will fare much better than under the NHS. Things like not  having to prove RLE before starting hormones, for example. You just walk in to an informed consent clinic, get counseled, tested, and walk out with a scrip. Sometimes even in one visit. Maybe one or two months but there are a good number of them. Even if your GP cooperates you can be prescribed too.

The USA gets a bad rap for our bad examples and bigotry, especially in the South, but actually in many respects we have been leading the way. It's just that the USA is so big and diverse that you'll see the nutters as well as those of us who live in reality.
  •