Even in the south you can get treatment pretty quickly and it's not terribly expensive even without insurance.  I got a psychologist appointment in one week and went from my first appointment to an HRT letter in about 4 weeks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

@rejennyrated, I'd love to have some links, I'm always willing to be happily proven wrong, I'm not a medical researcher by any stretch, but I read everything about trans medicine I can get my hand on, actually I would say that the us has the best health care system.in the world, I would also say that religious fantatics exist everywhere,  United Kingdom protestants vs catholics ring a bell,

The main thing I have seen in my own life, is that it doesn't matter what the science is when it comes to talking about spiritual things, as they are fundamental opposites. 

God loves us all, just as we are, he made us just as we are.  And to the OP, the only way your wife's religious issues will be solved is if she is able to grasp the the concept on God and a relationship with him.

I was hoping some of you could help Kelli.. she is going through a lot.. like so many of us.
I will make a point.. as clearly as I can.. and I am not as smart as most you girls.. but here we go.  I will get to medical evidence at the end.. URRRRR!

So, I was talking to a friend who loves and supports me.. and he was talking to his pasture which was interested in the subject.. My friend said he had a friend that was transgender.  He explained that he did not want to argue right or wrong.. he just said I know Keri and she is a totally different person now and so happy .. He said if she is happy and loving life so much isnt that proof enough.. that she is a she..
The pasture said I had never really thought of it that way.

So, you would think I would be ok with that explanation to the pasture.. but I got a little upset because he said RIGHT OR WRONG.   OMG.. I told him that its not a question of right or wrong.. I am so sick of people equating a medical condition we have as some kind of choice..
It is what it is.. I say it is so its so.. I feel like a woman.. been there all my life so therefore I am a woman.. simple basic answer.. who is someone else not in my head to tell me different..
Well its religious people that equate transgender issues to sex.. Its so wrong..

100% of the dudes in any church at any time have wacked off that week.. I think that is sick but I don't say its wrong.. Also, 95% of all dudes in a church look at porn..
Its a fact. 

Its not a right or wrong question.

So now to the medical evidence.
For me I have some medical proof.. not all trans people do and that does not mean a thing.. its just that some of us have it..
My finger index ratio is way way female.. like 1.04 on one hand and 1.07 one the other... very unusual for both hands to be so much the same..
Carry angle... the angle your arms stick out when held at your side and face palms forward.. the top of the scale for females is 29% and I am right there.
That my friends for me is physical evidence.. so what happened.. I will never know but something did..
What happens could be different for all of us or the same for many of us.

I remember lifting weights with my buddies and I could not use a straight bar..   one reason was my carry angle.. and BTW carry angle has to do with breast feeding.. when I walk my arms curve out like any other woman.. missing my hips..

Now if you do not have these things it means nothing.. you are who you are.. however you got there does not matter, what matters is we are who we are and no one has ever been healed.. not one person.. if they were they may have had a mental illness and be confused.. That is why we have guidelines from the medical community..
And who made the medical community.. well God made them and you and I.. so God put them here to treat and heal the sick.. they are here to help us too..
Sorry girls.. just so simple.. and we have been made political footballs.. It is not a question of right or wrong!!!!

Keri..
now I have to go eat some chocolate.. candy.. yea.. Halloween..

Quote from: Rejennyrated on October 30, 2015, 06:58:12 PM
Actually those who claim there is no smoking gun and no solid scientific evidence are twenty years out of date!!!!

There is - it is well understood, and I had to endure a whole week of lectures on it during my first year at medical school in a module on "gender identity and disorders of sexual development".

Now I know the USA is a little like a backward third world country scientifically which, because of all the hard line religious nutters, often takes quite a long time to catch up with the rest of the world, but seriously? No evidence? Bollocks! Even one of my fellow students, a former biomedical researcher has written papers on this subject and trust me there is now a LOT of SOLID evidence.

Its late here and I cant be bothered to find links and list them - but a quick search on a proper decent medical papers database like pubmed should easily find you 50 authoritative papers on the subject...

It's got absolute NOTHING to do with a spiritual problem - it is pure science and anyone who thinks there is any room for doubt about that is, in my honest view, badly misinformed. (I almost want to say an idiot, but I won't because I realise that would be rather rude, but honestly its really not in any way a supportable or rational position given the weight of evidence that I KNOW with 100% certainty exists!!!)

White Matter Microstructure correlates more to either gender
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/....full.pdf+html

GD flaring up when voices mixmatch.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0111672-g003

Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity
http://journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA

Neuroscience Proves What We've Known All Along: Gender Exists on a Spectrum
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../378068a0.html
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-ma...oy-girl-247122
Brain mapping gender identity.
Luders E, Sánchez F, Tosun D, et al. Increased Cortical Thickness in Male-to-Female Transsexualism. Journal of Behavioral and Brain Science. 2012.

In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex characteristics, may be understood to be "much less a matter of choice and much more a matter of biology" (Coolidge et al., 2000).
The scientific evidence supports the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000).
It is clear that the condition cannot necessarily be overcome by "consistent psychological socialisation as male or female (tried and tested, behavioral therapy does not help)

from very early childhood" ... It is understood that during the fetal period the brain is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al., 2000; 2001; 2002; 2003).
In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004).
The etiological pathways leading to this inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no single route is likely to be identified.
Different genetic, hormonal and environmental factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female.
Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly, 2003)

intersex conditions, maternal stress levels, deficient enzymes and whether the mother was exposed during the pregnancy to endocrine disrupting chemicals are also things to take account for.
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

In most gender dysphoric children, gender dysphoria will cease when they reach puberty, whereas adolescents with a GID will likely pursue their wish for sex reassignment into adulthood (Cohen-Kettenis and Pfäfflin 2003; Wallien and Cohen-Kettenis 2008; Zucker and Bradley 1995). Likewise, in children under age 12 with co-occurring ASD the gender dysphoria alleviated and in adolescents between age 12 and 18 their GID persisted.

http://www.healthcanal.com/mental-he...-identity.html
Lets hope this grant will bring more light.

In any case, I do see there's no point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<- somehow.
But only discerning psychological causes has been overruled.
& i'm not even going to comment on spiritualism.

This is awesome.. wow!
I knew you all could help...
Keri

Quote from: Swayallday on October 30, 2015, 09:17:42 PM
White Matter Microstructure correlates more to either gender
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/....full.pdf+html

GD flaring up when voices mixmatch.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0111672-g003

Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity
http://journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA

Neuroscience Proves What We've Known All Along: Gender Exists on a Spectrum
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../378068a0.html
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-ma...oy-girl-247122
Brain mapping gender identity.
Luders E, Sánchez F, Tosun D, et al. Increased Cortical Thickness in Male-to-Female Transsexualism. Journal of Behavioral and Brain Science. 2012.

In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex characteristics, may be understood to be "much less a matter of choice and much more a matter of biology" (Coolidge et al., 2000).
The scientific evidence supports the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000).
It is clear that the condition cannot necessarily be overcome by "consistent psychological socialisation as male or female (tried and tested, behavioral therapy does not help)

from very early childhood" ... It is understood that during the fetal period the brain is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al., 2000; 2001; 2002; 2003).
In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004).
The etiological pathways leading to this inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no single route is likely to be identified.
Different genetic, hormonal and environmental factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female.
Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly, 2003)

intersex conditions, maternal stress levels, deficient enzymes and whether the mother was exposed during the pregnancy to endocrine disrupting chemicals are also things to take account for.
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

In most gender dysphoric children, gender dysphoria will cease when they reach puberty, whereas adolescents with a GID will likely pursue their wish for sex reassignment into adulthood (Cohen-Kettenis and Pfäfflin 2003; Wallien and Cohen-Kettenis 2008; Zucker and Bradley 1995). Likewise, in children under age 12 with co-occurring ASD the gender dysphoria alleviated and in adolescents between age 12 and 18 their GID persisted.

http://www.healthcanal.com/mental-he...-identity.html
Lets hope this grant will bring more light.

In any case, I do see there's no point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<- somehow.
But only discerning psychological causes has been overruled.
& i'm not even going to comment on spiritualism.

Quote from: Kathleenmarie on October 30, 2015, 08:14:15 PM
@rejennyrated, I'd love to have some links, I'm always willing to be happily proven wrong, I'm not a medical researcher by any stretch, but I read everything about trans medicine I can get my hand on, actually I would say that the us has the best health care system.in the world

Yes the comment you mention was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek but perhaps Scottish sarcasm doesnt translate that well in which case my apologies. Like I said it was late, I was at the end of a ong week, and I couldnt be bothered to run the pubmed search last night.

Happily however I see Swayallday now has (or at least something quite like it.) There is a lot more too - but thats a good start certainly. So I rest my case - there is indeed plenty of evidence.

Quote from: Swayallday on October 30, 2015, 09:17:42 PM
White Matter Microstructure correlates more to either gender
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/....full.pdf+html

GD flaring up when voices mixmatch.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0111672-g003

Evidence Supporting the Biologic Nature of Gender Identity
http://journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA

Neuroscience Proves What We've Known All Along: Gender Exists on a Spectrum
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ravishly/neuroscience-proves-what-_b_6494820.html

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../378068a0.html
A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-ma...oy-girl-247122
Brain mapping gender identity.
Luders E, Sánchez F, Tosun D, et al. Increased Cortical Thickness in Male-to-Female Transsexualism. Journal of Behavioral and Brain Science. 2012.

In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex characteristics, may be understood to be "much less a matter of choice and much more a matter of biology" (Coolidge et al., 2000).
The scientific evidence supports the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000).
It is clear that the condition cannot necessarily be overcome by "consistent psychological socialisation as male or female (tried and tested, behavioral therapy does not help)

from very early childhood" ... It is understood that during the fetal period the brain is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al., 2000; 2001; 2002; 2003).
In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004).
The etiological pathways leading to this inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no single route is likely to be identified.
Different genetic, hormonal and environmental factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female.
Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly, 2003)

intersex conditions, maternal stress levels, deficient enzymes and whether the mother was exposed during the pregnancy to endocrine disrupting chemicals are also things to take account for.
http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

In most gender dysphoric children, gender dysphoria will cease when they reach puberty, whereas adolescents with a GID will likely pursue their wish for sex reassignment into adulthood (Cohen-Kettenis and Pfäfflin 2003; Wallien and Cohen-Kettenis 2008; Zucker and Bradley 1995). Likewise, in children under age 12 with co-occurring ASD the gender dysphoria alleviated and in adolescents between age 12 and 18 their GID persisted.

http://www.healthcanal.com/mental-he...-identity.html
Lets hope this grant will bring more light.

In any case, I do see there's no point in referencing biological markers insofar as proving and therefore validating ->-bleeped-<- somehow.
But only discerning psychological causes has been overruled.
& i'm not even going to comment on spiritualism.

Quote from: iKate on October 30, 2015, 07:41:17 PM
If she's using religion as a defense you're wasting your time. Religion "disproves" science by saying, "god said so," or "it's in the bible" or my personal favorite - "God does not make mistakes."

I have to agree with this. Close minded is close minded.

Require from them what they are requiring for you - ask them to provide hard scientific evidence for the basis of their assertion.

I just feel this is bound to cause more strife than understanding. I'm really having a hard time understanding why a therapist would pit one persons core belief system against the spouses medical need.  I would think a more careful give and take and learning to understand would be a far more rationale approach than trying to dismantle one or the others belief system. Just my opinion, not meant to cause harm, plus I've never had to deal with this sort of situation.

One more observation...

Let's say, you cannot convince, as proving beyond ANY doubt, that you definitively TG. Then what?

Try as I did. For nearly 50 years diligently adhering to the "accepted" treatment plan of suppression and denial. Work hard at being a "Successful" male, and actually achieving it. Only to slowly rot away on the inside turning into a lifeless soulless thing with no hopes wishes or dreams bar one you gave up on long long ago?

Quote from: JoanneB on October 31, 2015, 12:57:42 PM
Work hard at being a "Successful" male, and actually achieving it.

Hey, that is my story too.
On the top of that mountain, I felt so empty and scripted being like others expected me to be. Like yet another joke has been played on me. "What did I do this? Why do I have to keep doing it?"

Then I just moved on where it is warm for me, and am much happier to be like this. Colors returned to my life. But it is great struggle and wait to get to any medical treatment. No private healthcare here, so no money can speed it up inside the country.

Quote from: kellizgirl on October 30, 2015, 03:32:16 PM
To make a long story short I am in process of transitioning and my wife and I have hit an impasse. She contends this is a spiritual disorder I counter that this is a medical condition not a spiritual problem. Our counselor wants us botht o bring in evidence to support our claims and we will look at them at our next session. So I am asking you my sisters for help either send me (at kellizgirl@gmail.com) any medical evidence you may have or point me in the direction to find it. Please help me, thank you.

Contrary to popular belief, the sex you develop as doesn't depend on whether you have a Y chromosome or not, but on what hormones are present during the time your prenatal development is taking place. There's a considerable amount of scientific evidence showing that gender identity is not learned, but is something that's built into the structure of your brain during the time your prenatal development is taking place. As with other aspects of sexual development, whether you get the male or female version depends on what hormones you're exposed to during your prenatal development.

In other words, being trans is a form of intersex, except one in which the main effects have been on the brain rather than the genitals. It's possible to have the brain develop as a different sex from the genitals, because genital development takes place during the first trimester of your prenatal development, whereas the important stuff as far as sex differences between male and female brains appears to take place during the second and third trimester.

This paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/?tool=pubmed

provides a good overview of the history behind the discovery that there are sex differences between male and female brains, that arise as a result of what hormones are present during the prenatal period when brain development is taking place. In some of the experiments discussed in that paper, they produced what were effectively FTM transgender monkeys (genetically female and with female genitals, but with a male brain), just by injecting the mother with androgenic hormones (testosterone or DHT) during the second half of the pregnancy. I've found some other papers in which similar experiments were performed on sheep, and (as the above paper mentions), the same thing has been demonstrated in several other animal species too.

Aside from that research, other things pointing to trans being a kind of intersex are that there's quite a bit of overlap between intersex and trans. A lot of us older MTF and transfeminine people seem to have a type of body structure known as "eunuchoid habitus", which results from chronic below normal male testosterone production, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions.

I've been using this montage of photos of me when I was aged 12 to show this in myself. You can see how I developed long, slender arms and legs, feminine looking facial features and a generally feminine appearance. In the second photo, you can see I have a female digit ratio (index finger as long or longer than ring finger). In the third one, you can see how my brother has a totally different build than me (much heavier bones and musculature), and, although we're almost exactly the same height overall, his legs and upper body are roughly equal in length whereas my legs are considerably longer and my upper body considerably shorter than his (female leg to trunk ratio). I still have those skeletal differences even now, although decades of testosterone exposure (even at below normal male levels) has masculinized me to the point where I don't stand out from ordinary males nearly as much as I used to.

From chatting to other MTF and nonbinary people, we seem to have this kind of body structure way more commonly than the cis male population, although I don't know offhand of any studies where they've systematically measured people's bodily proportions to confirm it. There is this one though, which found thinner, lighter bones and reduced musculature on average in their MTF group:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23369987

The situation is clearer with FTMs, since it's well known that they have a much higher incidence than the cis female population of the endocrine disorders PCOS and hyperandrogenism, e.g.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9279941
http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0029/ea0029p957.htm

The fact that there are often subtle physical and endocrinological differences between trans people and cis people of their birth sex, means that it can't just be a psychological condition and there must be some physical basis to it.

I suspect that the main reasons that this doesn't get talked about very much are that, firstly, it's a direct threat to psychiatrists' and gender therapists' role as gatekeepers for trans people gaining access to treatment; and secondly, a lot of us (perhaps even the majority) are only trans in the first place because of the reckless use of pharmaceutical hormones (such as DES) in pregnant women.

I must admit I'm deeply concerned about your counselors proposal. What happens when you  come in with 50 pages of scientific theory and or data  and she comes in with a page or two of her personal core belief system which is just as valid. ( please no harm meant , I'm just trying to understand the validity of your counselors approach). Personally if someone tried to redefine my belief in God's word by their own interpretation there will definitely be a problem. Of course it could just be trying to find compromise or one of the two participants is going to be thrown under the bus. (Again just my opinion and not meant for harm)

It could go either way and it's impossible for us to predict since we don't know her wife at all.  Perhaps, and most likely, she just doesn't know and just is repeating what she read on a Christian blog somewhere.  In that case seeing the evidence might go very well.

Even arguing this from a biblical and spiritual standpoint is flimsy at best.  The Bible really doesn't say anything about it at all and the only way you can make an anti-trans spiritual argument is by filtering it through some other individual's theology.  And theology at its core is just some men's philosophical musings on what someone else wrote before.  Perhaps, with luck, she will realize this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just for a balanced approach on validity of positions

"There is no official policy regarding transgender individuals in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, though doctrinal teachings clearly equate birth anatomy with gender. The Vatican's Extraordinary Synod, convened in October 2014, debated several issues related to LGBT inclusion but did not address questions regarding transgender church members. However, the experience of transgender Catholics varies depending on their communities, (Tia Pesando, a transgender woman, recently made news when she was accepted to a Carmelite Sisters' novitiate in Canada.)" From the Human Rights Campagn   "Stances of Faiths on LGBT Issues: Roman Catholic Church"

Yes.  That's all true.  But Ms. Pesandro, if I remember correctly, was also physically intersex.  Intersex is treated differently by the Catholic Church than transgender.
Right now transgender mtf and ftm are prohibited from entering holy orders restricted to the opposite of their birth sex.  They are also prohibited from marriage to someone of their birth sex. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know this is a bit off topic!  Please absolve.
I was raised Roman Catholic (although no longer practicing). Deborah, based upon your comment, upon the completion of my GCS, and as I identify as lesbian, I could legally marry another lesbian and this would be sanctioned by the church.  This confuses me a little.  I can't imagine two females obviously based upon their presentation, but one a natal female and the other a trans woman standing before a priest and receiving the sacrament of marriage.

I am Catholic too but have more or less fallen away and adopted some unorthodox theology to be able to relate to God at all anymore.

However, my understanding is that if one is transgender they would be prohibited from marrying anyone.  That is due to the Church's belief that marriage is solely for the purpose of procreation.

I might be wrong on that and it's always possible you might find a priest willing to bend the rules.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Joi on November 01, 2015, 12:55:21 PM
I know this is a bit off topic!  Please absolve.
I was raised Roman Catholic (although no longer practicing). Deborah, based upon your comment, upon the completion of my GCS, and as I identify as lesbian, I could legally marry another lesbian and this would be sanctioned by the church.  This confuses me a little.  I can't imagine two females obviously based upon their presentation, but one a natal female and the other a trans woman standing before a priest and receiving the sacrament of marriage.

By the letter of the canon law it would seem that this would be OK. But that is only because the church recognizes you as a male.

Also if you've sterilized yourself with hormones and/or GRS/orchi you've committed a sin anyway.

Quote from: HughE on November 01, 2015, 06:42:29 AM
Contrary to popular belief, the sex you develop as doesn't depend on whether you have a Y chromosome or not, but on what hormones are present during the time your prenatal development is taking place. There's a considerable amount of scientific evidence showing that gender identity is not learned, but is something that's built into the structure of your brain during the time your prenatal development is taking place. As with other aspects of sexual development, whether you get the male or female version depends on what hormones you're exposed to during your prenatal development.

In other words, being trans is a form of intersex, except one in which the main effects have been on the brain rather than the genitals. It's possible to have the brain develop as a different sex from the genitals, because genital development takes place during the first trimester of your prenatal development, whereas the important stuff as far as sex differences between male and female brains appears to take place during the second and third trimester.

This paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/?tool=pubmed

provides a good overview of the history behind the discovery that there are sex differences between male and female brains, that arise as a result of what hormones are present during the prenatal period when brain development is taking place. In some of the experiments discussed in that paper, they produced what were effectively FTM transgender monkeys (genetically female and with female genitals, but with a male brain), just by injecting the mother with androgenic hormones (testosterone or DHT) during the second half of the pregnancy. I've found some other papers in which similar experiments were performed on sheep, and (as the above paper mentions), the same thing has been demonstrated in several other animal species too.

Aside from that research, other things pointing to trans being a kind of intersex are that there's quite a bit of overlap between intersex and trans. A lot of us older MTF and transfeminine people seem to have a type of body structure known as "eunuchoid habitus", which results from chronic below normal male testosterone production, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions.

I've been using this montage of photos of me when I was aged 12 to show this in myself. You can see how I developed long, slender arms and legs, feminine looking facial features and a generally feminine appearance. In the second photo, you can see I have a female digit ratio (index finger as long or longer than ring finger). In the third one, you can see how my brother has a totally different build than me (much heavier bones and musculature), and, although we're almost exactly the same height overall, his legs and upper body are roughly equal in length whereas my legs are considerably longer and my upper body considerably shorter than his (female leg to trunk ratio). I still have those skeletal differences even now, although decades of testosterone exposure (even at below normal male levels) has masculinized me to the point where I don't stand out from ordinary males nearly as much as I used to.

From chatting to other MTF and nonbinary people, we seem to have this kind of body structure way more commonly than the cis male population, although I don't know offhand of any studies where they've systematically measured people's bodily proportions to confirm it. There is this one though, which found thinner, lighter bones and reduced musculature on average in their MTF group:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23369987

The situation is clearer with FTMs, since it's well known that they have a much higher incidence than the cis female population of the endocrine disorders PCOS and hyperandrogenism, e.g.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9279941
http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0029/ea0029p957.htm

The fact that there are often subtle physical and endocrinological differences between trans people and cis people of their birth sex, means that it can't just be a psychological condition and there must be some physical basis to it.

I suspect that the main reasons that this doesn't get talked about very much are that, firstly, it's a direct threat to psychiatrists' and gender therapists' role as gatekeepers for trans people gaining access to treatment; and secondly, a lot of us (perhaps even the majority) are only trans in the first place because of the reckless use of pharmaceutical hormones (such as DES) in pregnant women.

I agree with pretty much all of this. I have several of those markers including carry angle and less brow bossing than my brother. He also has much more body hair than I did and developed muscles much easier than I did. Low testosterone also plagued me for a long while. I am a possible DES child as well.

Quote from: HughE on November 01, 2015, 06:42:29 AM
Contrary to popular belief, the sex you develop as doesn't depend on whether you have a Y chromosome or not, but on what hormones are present during the time your prenatal development is taking place. There's a considerable amount of scientific evidence showing that gender identity is not learned, but is something that's built into the structure of your brain during the time your prenatal development is taking place. As with other aspects of sexual development, whether you get the male or female version depends on what hormones you're exposed to during your prenatal development.

In other words, being trans is a form of intersex, except one in which the main effects have been on the brain rather than the genitals. It's possible to have the brain develop as a different sex from the genitals, because genital development takes place during the first trimester of your prenatal development, whereas the important stuff as far as sex differences between male and female brains appears to take place during the second and third trimester.

This paper:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146061/?tool=pubmed

provides a good overview of the history behind the discovery that there are sex differences between male and female brains, that arise as a result of what hormones are present during the prenatal period when brain development is taking place. In some of the experiments discussed in that paper, they produced what were effectively FTM transgender monkeys (genetically female and with female genitals, but with a male brain), just by injecting the mother with androgenic hormones (testosterone or DHT) during the second half of the pregnancy. I've found some other papers in which similar experiments were performed on sheep, and (as the above paper mentions), the same thing has been demonstrated in several other animal species too.

Aside from that research, other things pointing to trans being a kind of intersex are that there's quite a bit of overlap between intersex and trans. A lot of us older MTF and transfeminine people seem to have a type of body structure known as "eunuchoid habitus", which results from chronic below normal male testosterone production, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions.

I've been using this montage of photos of me when I was aged 12 to show this in myself. You can see how I developed long, slender arms and legs, feminine looking facial features and a generally feminine appearance. In the second photo, you can see I have a female digit ratio (index finger as long or longer than ring finger). In the third one, you can see how my brother has a totally different build than me (much heavier bones and musculature), and, although we're almost exactly the same height overall, his legs and upper body are roughly equal in length whereas my legs are considerably longer and my upper body considerably shorter than his (female leg to trunk ratio). I still have those skeletal differences even now, although decades of testosterone exposure (even at below normal male levels) has masculinized me to the point where I don't stand out from ordinary males nearly as much as I used to.

From chatting to other MTF and nonbinary people, we seem to have this kind of body structure way more commonly than the cis male population, although I don't know offhand of any studies where they've systematically measured people's bodily proportions to confirm it. There is this one though, which found thinner, lighter bones and reduced musculature on average in their MTF group:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23369987

The situation is clearer with FTMs, since it's well known that they have a much higher incidence than the cis female population of the endocrine disorders PCOS and hyperandrogenism, e.g.:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9279941
http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0029/ea0029p957.htm

The fact that there are often subtle physical and endocrinological differences between trans people and cis people of their birth sex, means that it can't just be a psychological condition and there must be some physical basis to it.

I suspect that the main reasons that this doesn't get talked about very much are that, firstly, it's a direct threat to psychiatrists' and gender therapists' role as gatekeepers for trans people gaining access to treatment; and secondly, a lot of us (perhaps even the majority) are only trans in the first place because of the reckless use of pharmaceutical hormones (such as DES) in pregnant women.

I agree with pretty much all of this. I have several of those markers including carry angle and less brow bossing than my brother. He also has much more body hair than I did and developed muscles much easier than I did. Low testosterone also plagued me for a long while. I am a possible DES child as well.