Oh, honesty is one thing, Amy.  But being a tactless brat about it is another.

I don't lie to myself.  You think you're telling me something I'm not already acutely aware of?  Like I don't look in the mirror and go "blech"?  This is the problem with your "honesty", it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.  It just reminds me of a wound I'm twenty grand short of healing.  I come here looking for tips on coping in the meantime, not getting salt rubbed into it. 

I try to cling to and emphasize the few feminine qualities I have in my face, which are actually quite lovely.  It sounds to me like you're just speaking from experience.

And I appreciate that.  Suffice to say, however, I seem to be taking this much better than you.  Normally I wouldn't have given a crap, but after losing my dad only a couple months prior, I was in a bit of a vulnerable state.

Seriously, all this talk of trends is making me want to vomit.  It's pretty shallow.  I think I'm just going to delete the thread if it continues.

~ BB

Quote from: Keira on December 12, 2007, 08:57:38 AM
If after 6 months minimum most people still sir
you, then FFS could be a possibility.
I waited 5 months. I already passed at least 90%

I don't think you can generalize this. The effective period could be anywhere from months to years. In my case, it took 18 months of HRT (and several laser sessions) before I stopped hearing sir. If I'd thought I had to have satisfactory results within only 6 months, I'd have become suicidal when it didn't happen. Many people definitely need to hold out for longer than that!

hi blair, julie here. you don't know me as i'm new to the site
first, i'd like to say that i know what it is to go thru the holidays when you've lost someone you loved so much.
It poisons everything.
And i know what it feels like when the mirror can't show you the face you have and see inside yourself. it's not really about passing.
To the brutally honest among us, i just want to say that brutal honesty isn't being honest. It's just being brutal.
this group is great, by the way  : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ffs-support/ . I belong to it, and i think you can get some of the most up-to-date info there. the girls there, by the way, are beginning to become a bit perturbed at the prices that are being charged lately.
Also,this site has been getting some attention lately : http://www.genderways.com/en/index.htm
their prices look great, and definitely within your budget, but i would investigate them further (i'm going to check 'em out on the web, try to find some of their clients, see what they say)
But must of all, i want to say that i'm proud of you.
I'm proud that you have the courage to whine when you need to, cry when you need to, and to hollar out when despair takes over.
I'm proud that you have the strength to be the woman you are.
I'm happy for you that you are young, and you have every right to want to be the woman you were meant to be as soon as humanly possible.

We are ALL WOMEN here. We are WOMEN with the most horrible woman problem imaginable. Remember, it kills A LOT OF US.
Don't let it kill you, honey.
And let us all remember that the world is a hard enough place for us. lets not kill our own.
Blair, you can cry on my shoulder any time you want. and i hope that i can cry on your's too.
I'm saying this to all of you now. if you need someone to whine to, and don't want to be attacked for it, whine to me. I won't try to fix you.
But i promise to listen to you, and maybe cry along with you.
in the mean time, blair, move yourself out of your head, and down into your heart.
when you're ready, get up, dance, spin around until you're dizzy. shake your ass.
And let your love embrace the girl child that you are.
God bless, be save.
Julie

Blair, you heard from peeps from both sides of the argument, and really, who are you going to believe?
Nero and Kristi, who both said you have good looks,
or _______, who just might be PMSing this week?

one thing i found out is that i like myself much more now that i've come out, and that drastically changes your facial expression. i look dreadful when i'm all gloomy, but kinda cute when i'm being friendly to myself.

-ell 

Quote from: Blair on December 12, 2007, 10:44:48 AM
Oh, honesty is one thing, Amy.  But being a tactless brat about it is another.

I don't lie to myself.  You think you're telling me something I'm not already acutely aware of?  Like I don't look in the mirror and go "blech"?  This is the problem with your "honesty", it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.  It just reminds me of a wound I'm twenty grand short of healing.  I come here looking for tips on coping in the meantime, not getting salt rubbed into it. 

I try to cling to and emphasize the few feminine qualities I have in my face, which are actually quite lovely.  It sounds to me like you're just speaking from experience.

And I appreciate that.  Suffice to say, however, I seem to be taking this much better than you.  Normally I wouldn't have given a crap, but after losing my dad only a couple months prior, I was in a bit of a vulnerable state.

Seriously, all this talk of trends is making me want to vomit.  It's pretty shallow.  I think I'm just going to delete the thread if it continues.

~ BB

girls can be so cruel to each other. Blair, my dear, you are already lovely. I understand about your need to change some aspects of your appearance. There are very few TS who are completely satisifed with the looks they were born with.
You were blessed with the strong, distinctive features similar to those of Brooke Shields, Kathy Ireland, Denise Richards, and Sharon Stone.
It would be a tragedy if you changed much.
Some cats here have green eyes, I'm afraid.

Hi Nero and all, I agree with you Nero, Blair is a good looking girl and sometimes we can be our own worst critic and thus we already know what need fixin or not. But we also all need some positive support and give out positive suggestions when asked for. I do pray that all will turn out well for Blair.

Cindy

Women like you are the reason I come to this site.  Thank you! 

~ BB

I said she had the chin-jaw that looks a lot like Paris Hilton or Micha Barton (I think she's closer to Micha). But, who want to say they look like Paris Hilton even if I consider her beautiful.

I just came across this picture of Jemima Khan on the Daily Mail site, in the '90s she was one of Britain's glamour girls, well as this pic shows she has a bigger jaw than half the men in the world--and is nevertheless considered a glamorous woman. Something to think about!

Actually she doesn't have a bigger jaw because her
jaw is not vertically high. That makes a big difference
in how massive the jaw looks.

The gender marker is
not jaw width, but jaw height. Blair's chin is
not high, so there's no problem there at all.

Sorry, I don't get what you mean about height. Could you explain? All I can see is, Jemima has a very masculine looking jaw... and it doesn't get in the way of her image.

Her vertical height of her chin and the nose to lip distance is within female range. In males, both are larger. In most males, its significantly larger and that's what really indicates the size of of the jaw.

Look at these examples, Strong jaws yes, but imagine how bigger the jaw would be if the chin to bottom of nose distance was 25% longer like in most males!





Keira Knightley


Keira Knightley's jawline is almost exactly line mine, it not a coincidence I
took that name :-). She's slightly wider while my cheekbones are slightly more
prominent and high.

Guess who this is, very well known model, of 3 top models of the 90's.



As you see, and I said, it doesn't matter how wide the jaw is if the the bottom of nose to chin length is same as bottom of nose to glabella (line between eyebrows). This is a well known esthetics standard. The forehead should be 1/3, the lower jaw 1/3, and the mid face 1/3.

Hi Keira, do you have any North American Native background in the family? Just curious, I have some Iroquois back ground and I do have prominent cheek bones.

Cindy

Quote from: Kate on December 03, 2007, 02:55:44 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on December 03, 2007, 08:08:18 AM
I still don't get it when people with obviously male features claim they "pass" so well. Perhaps, in whatever locale they live in, people haven't learned how to play "Spot the ->-bleeped-<-."

Wow, we live in very, very different worlds Melissa. I'm beginning to see why we disagree so much on certain things. I don't think I'd be able to survive out there. I know you think I'm delusional, and maybe out there I WOULD be, but here... how I am, and how I approach all this makes sense and fits me into my world around me here. But I guess it might not work at all in your context.

I can't imagine living in a world where TSism, trans-rights, progressive-issues, gender-bending.... all that stuff is on the forefront of everyone's minds. It's just not like that where I live. No one even THINKS about it. No one is looking for transsexuals. The category doesn't even exist. There's no contest or focus on passing other than being congruent enough to not raise a fuss and get on with life.

The irony (and I DO so love ironies!) is that you're showing me that it's actually BETTER to live in a restrictive, regressive, binary, male-or-female environment. People here don't WANT me to be "transsexual" - they need me to be either male of female to fit into their tidy little binary world, and once you cross a certain threshold, they seem to be willing to ignore your biological history and slot you into your target sex.

Funny how curses keep turning into blessings...

~Kate~

Seriously kate that was perfectly put.  I can totally identify with that as I live in "Montucky" and that is definately most peoples frame of mind.  Cows and horses included.    Oh PS I still need to do a formal introduction which ill get to tomorrow.

Oh, By the way blair without going to in depth into previous posts.  May I ask how long you've been on hormones and are you on the right dosage etc.

Quote from: Hypatia on December 12, 2007, 09:06:55 PM
I just came across this picture of Jemima Khan on the Daily Mail site, in the '90s she was one of Britain's glamour girls, well as this pic shows she has a bigger jaw than half the men in the world--and is nevertheless considered a glamorous woman. Something to think about!

IMO this woman looks like a man. She would probably be assumed to be a ->-bleeped-<- where I live. At one time, I was very pretty but with male features. I used to get hit on all the time. I think a lot of men (and Lesbian) like masculine pretty faces. Although I didn't get "sir" before my facial work, I know I pass a lot better as there are a lot of subtle things that happen that didn't happen before (for instance, strangers telling me that I was pretty, what they were saying is "You are really pretty FOR A MAN!) that tell me people are accepting me as a natal female rather than a ->-bleeped-<- with a good presentation.

I think that Blair is very attractive a lot like the pre-me, but she will have hard time ever passing unless she lives in one of these places where people are too backwards to know what a transexual looks like.

Quote from: ell on December 12, 2007, 09:12:25 AM

Quote from: Mawd on December 12, 2007, 08:19:16 AM
Give 'mones a few months, pluck your eyebrows work on your voice, style your hair nicely and most people can pass ok even if they won't be winning any beauty contests, some women have brow ridges some have large chins, some natal women even fail to pass consistently, the easiest way to pass is to just let go and get on with it.

i'm out and about after four months on HRT, breasts are starting to grow, and some people are really nice to me. other people are looking at me like i'm a mental patient. i wanted to wait a little longer before coming out to the general public, but i can't stand men's clothes, especially the shoes.

It'll change in time, it took me a fair while to work out what worked for me.

Quote from: Blair on December 12, 2007, 10:44:48 AM
Oh, honesty is one thing, Amy.  But being a tactless brat about it is another.

I don't lie to myself.  You think you're telling me something I'm not already acutely aware of?  Like I don't look in the mirror and go "blech"?  This is the problem with your "honesty", it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know.  It just reminds me of a wound I'm twenty grand short of healing.  I come here looking for tips on coping in the meantime, not getting salt rubbed into it. 

I try to cling to and emphasize the few feminine qualities I have in my face, which are actually quite lovely.  It sounds to me like you're just speaking from experience.

And I appreciate that.  Suffice to say, however, I seem to be taking this much better than you.  Normally I wouldn't have given a crap, but after losing my dad only a couple months prior, I was in a bit of a vulnerable state.

Seriously, all this talk of trends is making me want to vomit.  It's pretty shallow.  I think I'm just going to delete the thread if it continues.

~ BB

Seriously, going from your profile pic I'm certain you could pass decently well on a day to day basis, Amy is basically talking rubbish.

I know a ton of trannies who have prominent brow ridges deep voices massive chins and all kinds of masculine features but they pass because they just get on with it and be themselves and that shows, you get read by being self obsessive and most of all acting ->-bleeped-<-ish.

No one passes to start, if they do then they've spent a silly amount of money on surgery and voice training, it just comes in time from day to day experience, took me a couple of months, takes most people between that and a year.

"they need me to be either male of female to fit into their tidy little binary world, and once you cross a certain threshold, they seem to be willing to ignore your biological history and slot you into your target sex."

The great truth in the world is that people see what they want to see, they have ordered their world view, nothing is going to change that, and they have less than zero attention to detail.  So they see what they have always seen - what they have sorted out, cataloged - in short, the stuff they have figured out (at least to their satisfaction).  That's what they know, and they don't want to mess with what they know.

That's why its so easy to fool people, with magic, or with technology, or tricks - you are counting on them to see what they are counting on to see.

Let me use a pretty famous example.  When you enter Disneyland (or world, or whatever) you come on Main Street U.S.A.  You walk down that street, and you feel 'at home.'  You feel its much more your scale - your pace of life, than that modern city or suburb you come from.  It feels 'homey' as well as 'old-timey."  The second is more a matter of style and fashion, but the first is very real.  It comes from a theatre trick, Main Street USA is built at 3/4 scale on the first level, then 5/8 scale on up. 

You see it as a full street, you don't even notice the trick.  You know 'buildings' are such and so high and wide.  You assume that those buildings are a standard size, and on a standard block.  But you feel - and this is all about changing emotions - more 'at home' because it is, in fact, smaller.

So, if you are out and about, most people will - being all self absorbed and all - just take it all at face value.  They are not interested in the broader questions, the philosophy of transexualism, the issues of gender in society or any of that.  They say "male" or "female" and let it go at that.

I don't agree that people wilth massive brow ridge and jaw
pass if they just live their lives.
If you listen how people talk in their back, and I am in a position to do so,
(and Tink also), they get no respect, and life is very hard for them.

While many TS think they will never pass and its part of their Body image dysmorphism,
there are a good percentage that truly CANNOT pass no matter how much hormones they
take. Dismissing their existence doesn't make them not exist!!

That's not the case of Blair, though she's more a run of the milll TS who's afraid
to not pass when indeed she most likely will.

I freely admit I have only read a small fraction of this thread.

FFS is a highly personal decision.  What I, Nero, Keira or anyone else thinks doesn't matter.  It only matters what Blair thinks.  Trying to convince somebody that they need or don't need FFS is incredibly counterproductive.  I know this first hand.  I knew that I had always disliked my image, but when I read about FFS and the incredible buzz about it on-line it only created havoc in my mind.  It took me a while to sort out what I wanted because the idea that I would be doing it for others bothered me.  In the end, when I took a big step back, it became an easy decision.  I didn't do it for others, I did it for me.  I'm happy to report that I now look like I should have and it was a huge confidence booster.



Blair: I would urge you to not come back to this thread.  Further I would urge you not to talk about this with anyone period.  The only conversation you should have about this is with yourself. Also I apologize if I'm repeating someone else, but have you checked out Dr Spiegel in Boston?  His work is about on par with Dr O these days and he's about one third less cost-wise.  Just so you know that I'm not biased, I'm a Dr O grad.  The one big difference between the two is post-op care.  Dr O has the Cocoon House, while Dr Spiegel has you check into a hotel.

Just one cautionary note Blair: It is quite common for the first month after surgery to be very stressfull.  It takes that long for you to process your new image and to stop looking for "him".  So be ready for that and be patient.  Good luck!

BTW, I know what FFS is since I've done it (not the works, but 5-6 hours under is long enough!)

I think Blair is old enough to make up her own mind after collecting all the info from here and
elsewhere and probing her inner feelings.