Quote from: Ms Grace on December 04, 2015, 03:57:53 PM
Not saying this is you, but my resistance to accepting that I was trans was internalised transphobia.

Yeah, I think I had some of that, too.  (Maybe not necessarily the same way, I don't know.)

I'd always thought that if I transitioned, I'd see a repulsive caricature of a woman in the mirror.  Since I'm already repulsed by how I look, it was kind of discouraging.  Once the light started dawning that I wasn't going to be able to live as a man any more, I started going to trans support groups simply to get to know some trans women and maybe get an idea of what I might look and live like.  As I've gotten to know more trans women as people (though not religious, I often use the phrase "God's children"), not just as pictures, my resistance to the idea of being trans and of transitioning gradually melted away.  There are trans women I know, including ones who don't pass at all, who make me feel I could be well content to be like them.

There's also an aspect of accepting and loving the parts of me that I used to be most ashamed of.  A large part of my growing up was being trained that pretty much all of the most essential parts of me were bad, shameful, and to be eradicated or hidden away as thoroughly and quickly as possible.  A lot of what I've been doing over the past few years has been to rescue those children from their locked cells (cf.: "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas") and accept them and love them and heal them (to the extent it's possible.)

I mostly agree with Sarah that "Sometimes it just plain sucks". However I would leave off the Sometimes. Being trans just plain sucks. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who Wants to be trans. Yet there is magic that takes place when you finally come to own, to accepting that you are.

What sucks even more then being trans? Being trans and spending enormous amounts of effort to push down all those bobbing corks. Having to carry around all that excess emotional baggage. I know I had a lot of internalized transphobia. I still have some. I also know the realities of the world around me. The very real, at best, obstacles a trans person needs to deal with. My wife fears for my safety all the time when I am out presenting as female.

My wife has a somewhat unique perspective. She is far from thrilled about having the T-Bomb dropped. Even less thrilled about "the bumps on my chest". She cannot think of me as a husband.  It is all better then finding me dead, hanging from a rafter in the garage. I tend to agree. Though I have an incredible amount of guilt over the additional pain I am causing in her life and the insecurities of a future together.

Thanks Grace. I start to get really depressed if I try to imagine myself being this girly trans person. I'm not sure if that is brought on by a bunch of internal transphobia. I mean that I don't even have the slightest bit of any feminine physical characteristic. None whatsoever. So if I do identify as a girl, what would that mean. In my mind, the world would see me as some sort of freak guy in a dress. I guess that would be transphobia in me.

I feel happier if I think of myself as they guy I appear to be who dresses occasionally to relieve some of the dysphoria, even if that isn't how I truly identify.

It's so confusing.

J

Asche, I don't think I have any hope of ever passing. I've seen the Before and After thread and there are some amazing results there, but passing is not something I think I'm capable of. Besides my looks, there are my mannerisms, the way I walk, talk, etc. it all says guy. And if it is such a huge effort for me to change those things to be a girl, then maybe I'm not really a girl. This is hurting my head to think about it. I feel like I'm wasting my life away trying to figure out that I'm something I'm not rather than just enjoying life the way I am.

J

You should see a psychologist imo, not a gender therapist.

Joanne, I agree with you. It doesn't sometimes suck. It just sucks, always! It weighs very heavily on my conscious that I am causing my wife pain and insecurity. She should never have to have dealt with her husband thinking he is a girl. I feel like I have done her a wrong that I could never make right. She has been amazingly supportive, which reminds me how much of a better person she is than me. I should be strong enough mentally to contain this mess in my head, but I am not. I know being trans is something that can be controlled as much as being able to control the colour of your eyes, but I still feel guilty that I can't control my transness. It just sucks!!

J

Hi Skylar, my gender therapist is a psychologist.

J

*

J:

Your Susan's post count logs plenty of entries - you've been here at Susan's quite a while:  reading, thinking, posting, exploring.  That you give this topic weight as it applies to you demonstrates you are serious.  That is all positive in your favour whatever you determine for your future.  You have a loving wife who wants to stay with you, another positive.

Of course you can try ERT on a temporary basis (short term or low dose) to determine how you feel and how the medicine makes you feel.  There is a time frame when you have reversible feminising if you should ever revert.  You and your counsellors can determine this opportunity.

You are correct to some extent when you see those before and after pictures.  Do the subjects disclose they had FFS, BA, and other procedures?  Do they admit they are under make-up?  Are they changed when they are young?  Those questions all make a difference on anyone's prospective results.  All I had was GCS; my pictures are without make-up except one and I identified it as such.

Also know that, yes, 'your mileage may vary'. Just as males develop along a spectrum and you currently perceive yourself male, so do females.   Not all are hot bods and not all are that 'guy in a dress' type.  This is about you finding your self and your identity wherever they may be.  Likewise your fears.  I was filled with fear and apprehension despite all my years and all my discoveries; I prefer to conclude that I came out okay at the end.

Allow me to repeat that if your wedding vows included the 'for better or for worse' tradition, then this is your 'for better' coming out.  Your wife seems a keeper enjoying your shopping date together. Maybe she will enjoy the Jayne part of you as her new best girl friend while the John of you remains her husband.  That makes both of you winners.

*

Hi Sharon,

Thanks again for your support. I assume ERT is the same as HRT. I don't think I'm at a point where I want to do that. I'm going to try dressing at home from time to time. Apart from not wanting to be trans even a little bit, something that causes me so much confusion and distress is that I can be happy in guy mode, just not always. It changes between boy-girl-boy-girl-etc. I don't know if boy mode works when I distract myself with work/hobbies, or if it just the way I am. Maybe I'm both male and female. It would be a lot easier if I identified at either end of the spectrum rather than in the middle. The middle causes a lot of uneasiness, confusion, distress and just generally makes me feel totally loopy!

I am getting a lot better at managing the confusion. I don't like the feeling at all and I'm tired of this gender crap consuming my mind 24/7. I'm going to try and ignore it and hopefully dressing at home will make it a bit easier.

J

Quote from: Jayne01 on December 05, 2015, 12:44:34 PM
Joanne, I agree with you. It doesn't sometimes suck. It just sucks, always! It weighs very heavily on my conscious that I am causing my wife pain and insecurity. She should never have to have dealt with her husband thinking he is a girl. I feel like I have done her a wrong that I could never make right. She has been amazingly supportive, which reminds me how much of a better person she is than me. I should be strong enough mentally to contain this mess in my head, but I am not. I know being trans is something that can be controlled as much as being able to control the colour of your eyes, but I still feel guilty that I can't control my transness. It just sucks!!

If you were a horrible person would she be supportive?  Or simply file for divorce?

But you are right about not being able to control your transness any more then any other malady. However, you do have the ability to change how you manage it, or mis-manage it.

Mis-Manging is easy. Sheer force of Will. The 3D's of Diversions, Distractions, and Denial. Substance abuse. All routes I and many others have tried. In my case it slowly turned me into a lifeless, soulless thing with no hopes, wishes, or dreams bar one given up on long ago.

To change all that, and stand a chance of keeping my world intact, I knew I needed to figure out how to get these two great aspects of myself to peacefully coexist. It took a lot of work and gallons of tears. It is still in work in process though I am mostly there.

Over time and effort, how you see yourself as a woman may change. It did for me. Back in my early 20's during both of my "experiments" with transition all I saw and felt I was was "Some Guy in a Dress". Which of course the world easily picked up on. I spent a good portion of my life till then being a big target, I wasn't about to sign up for a lifetime of it.

Some 20 some odd years later not much has changed. OK I lost an inch and am only 5'11" now, still big hands, big feet, barrel chest, super-sized super orbital ridges, deeper then average voice, the list goes on. However my internal Wizard gave me Attitude. Like they say 99% of passing is attitude. I achieved my lifelong dream of being seen as and accepted as a woman.

Even better, thanks to Attitude and all that work on myself, is finally being able to recognize me as a person who has done some pretty great stuff and lots of cool things to be proud of. By accepting myself as who and what I am I finally saw what so many others have seen about me. Being happy being you is amazing.

Not being happy by not being you totally sucks.  (I think I just argued for being trans dies not totally suck. Once again Not Handling being trans is the real reason  )

Quote from: Jayne01 on December 05, 2015, 04:40:13 PM
.... I don't know if boy mode works when I distract myself with work/hobbies, or if it just the way I am....
J

Do you really feel happy in guy mode or is this a learnt behaviour?, because being in guy mode is more "acceptable and easier" Being in guy mode is what you know...being in girl mode brings its own set of doubts and fears of the unknown.

I don't know, Just putting it out there for your consideration.

Sarah T

Joanne, I appreciate you sharing. I'm sure coming out the other end of this current difficult time I'm having will make me a better person. When your head is clouded with doubts, fears, confusion and all the other stuff associated with discovering you're trans, it can be difficult to see things clearly. Thank you for helping to clear things for me. I can be a very slow learner with some things.

J

Sarah, I don't really know. I think I feel happy. I don't have anything to compare it to. I have never lived as a girl so I don't know if what I believe is happy is true or not. I'm pretty sure it's real. If you do something for long enough, it can be difficult to be objective. I don't feel unhappy, so I must be happy, right?
Now I'm confused. You asked a simple question and somehow I have complicated it. Gives me something to think about anyway.

Jayne

Sarah's question makes a lot more sense once you start the roller-coaster ride 

I was and still am into a lot of "Guy" things. Some related to power and control, something the baby of the family never has and especially a person who is trans. Others are related to building and creating. In Fraggle Rock terms, I am a Dooser. Those traits eventually led to me becoming the uber engineer that I am today.

I also know absolutely that those aspects make up a MAJOR portion of who I am. Hence the importance of my career. Being the hero engineer is who I am. If I can't fix it, it was never broken to begin with. But I'll gladly take credit for noting the plug was out. As well as being the sometimes salesman, intrepid global traveler, glad hander at trade shows. It is part of my core essence. Working for several years in the military industrial complex nearly killed me. I felt like I was back in the third grade having to raise my hand to do anything. It took weeks or months of meetings where half the attendees were either watching cat videos on YouTube or doing other work, for "The Team" to come to the obvious (to me) conclusions. ( On the plus side it also was THE major factor leading to me taking on the trans beast for real. I had wayyyyyy too much free time to think  )

Typical "Girl" stuff? I love doing girlie-girl. At my support group I joke how Joanne does not do casual. Too many years of dress pants, shirts and ties. You'll hardly see me not in a skirt. I enjoy eating good food so I enjoy cooking. And of course, my bear friends and other assorted plushies. Add in my basic caring, nurturing, always wanting to help, always looking for ways to ease another persons hurt, ease their pain somehow. These days feeling free to express emotions other then anger. Pointing out beauty and wonder in the world that others seem not to see.

Aside from a somewhat controlled part time life as female, I haven't a clue about what actually living as a woman is like. (Full Disclosure, I also had no clue about what actually being a guy is like) You aren't alone there. None of us are, until actually doing it. And it will still be YOU doing it. You are the sum total of all your life experiences. Short of a Men in Black brain eraser there is no changing that. You'll still have the same likes and dislikes. Hopefully you'll grow and learn. In time those likes and dislikes may change. Like your love of broccoli compared to it at age 7. (I was always in love with eating trees)

Two little asides, not too much off topic.

My wife once asked me during the runup on some Super Mega Bucks lottery; "If we won would you want to get the surgery and go full-time?" Since she threw in "The op" the answer came easily. "I have absolutely no idea what it is really like to live as a woman. Even if I had plenty of FU money I wouldn't want surgery until I had some time in the drivers seat"

Both of my therapist had asked me during one of my many WTF periods, "What would be different if Joanne showed up for work tomorrow?" My answer 3 years later to the gender therapist was the same as the first therapist and the same as today's. "There would be no difference... well once people pick their jaws off the floor " After several years of battling the trans beast I can say I feel 80% to 90% the genuine or authentic me. It took a lot of work sorting that bit out, learning who the REAL me is! Presenting as her would bring that close to 100%. If the risk of gaining that 10%-20% can cost a good 60% of the me? Is it worth it? Thankfully I don't need to find out that answer. Least, not today

I had a feeling the answer would be a bit harder than it first appears. I know it was for me...Is Happiness the the direct result on not being un-happy? I am not sure I agree with that so if you are not un-happy, you must therefore by default be happy? Hmmmmm??

I would have thought that there might be a number of other behaviours you do that you may not have picked up as to why or what they are about...for me I could never stand to blade shave long and always resorted to an Electric razor. I preferred the blade shave, didn't really take any longer, cost about the same as batteries for the razor. So why would I use an electric razor when I know I don't like the shave. The answer while simple goes to a far deeper issue...the reason is if I shave with an elctric razor I don't have to look at myself in the mirror which can and does trigger Dysphoria. I have been doing this kind of stuff for years and I can give  a number of different things that I have been doing most of my life to avoid triggeriung Dysphoria..I don't even know I am doing them half the time as they are second nature and just part of me.

Joanne, what a great post. I've read it and re-read 3 or 4 times. Since you present as Joanne part time, I'm guessing no HRT and you already mentioned no surgeries? Does that arrangement work well for you? Part time being Jayne to me seems like the better solution for me. I too am an engineer, and I am very good at it. That has to do with who I am rather than whether I am male or female, but I have no doubt that to get to my current position as a female would have been a much more difficult road. I'm in a male dominated industry and it is rare to see females succeeding as well as males. So like you, the male me does make a very large part of who I am. I doubt that as a female I would have the same level of respect in my work as I do as a male. And being a trans female would be even more challenging.

The truth is, I do enjoy my work and the freedom I have to speak my mind and tell others how things work, because I'm usually right and they are wrong (just joking....or am I) and I am perfectly OK being male me. Also if I am out on my mountain bike or motorbike, I am also fine being male me. Except for a few times on the motorbike where I have been quite dysphoric for reasons I do not know.

How do you deal with the feelings of guilt for the pain and hurt your wife may feel as a result of you being trans? My wife accepts me, loves me and supports me, but she still feels hurt and pain due to me being trans. We both realise it is something. Have no control over. Is it something that gets better or goes away with time? Or is it the new normal now?

Sarah, not being unhappy doesn't automatically mean you are happy. That's not what I was trying to say. I suppose if I'm not unhappy, then I must be somewhere between happy and .... "neutral" I guess? If happy is at one end of a scale and unhappy at the opposite end, then what I wanted to say is that when I am not unhappy, that includes the whole unhappy half of the scale. So I sit somewhere on the happy half. Does that make sense? It makes sense in my head

I haven't noticed any other behaviours that I might do to avoid triggering dysphoria. I may have some habits that I haven't picked up on. I'll try and take notice. I know I don't particularly like looking in mirrors. It doesn't exactly trigger dysphoria, but my reflection is at odds with the self image of myself as I imagine others see me. I couldn't describe how I "think that I look to others, but it definitely not what a mirror shows me. So looking in a mirror is purely a a functional exercise....to shave, brush my hair, etc.

Jayne

Quote from: Jayne01 on December 05, 2015, 08:50:48 PM
Sarah, not being unhappy doesn't automatically mean you are happy. That's not what I was trying to say. I suppose if I'm not unhappy, then I must be somewhere between happy and .... "neutral" I guess? If happy is at one end of a scale and unhappy at the opposite end, then what I wanted to say is that when I am not unhappy, that includes the whole unhappy half of the scale. So I sit somewhere on the happy half. Does that make sense? It makes sense in my head


Jayne

makes sense to me...I understand what you are trying to say. 

Quote from: Jayne01 on December 05, 2015, 08:37:39 PM
Joanne, what a great post. I've read it and re-read 3 or 4 times. Since you present as Joanne part time, I'm guessing no HRT and you already mentioned no surgeries? Does that arrangement work well for you? Part time being Jayne to me seems like the better solution for me....

Thank you.

I was able to do part time when I was working in the seventh circle of hell. Yet another great (trans) irony of my life is I was in rural West Virginia, AKA hillbillie (Deliverance) country. A major culture shock for this gal born, raised and living about all her live within 5 miles of New York City. My wife was still holding down the fort barking at strangers walking past the house the years I was down there. Eventually our prayers were answered and an old boss called asking me if I'm interested in having the most fun and exciting job I ever had again. Now back in my lovely "Village" within 3 miles of ground zero, Times Square of the megalopolis known as NYC I fear for the safety of my person and property. My wife even more so. Part-time is limited to within the walls of the house or well outside.

I've been on HRT for around 7 years now and developed a B cup. It is a bit of a problem but my wife is 'adjusting'. It's not a full B and the girls are a bit wall-eyed. Since I never wear anything other then baggy in male mode (former fatty with body issues) they are virtually undetectable under clothing.

QuoteI doubt that as a female I would have the same level of respect in my work as I do as a male. And being a trans female would be even more challenging.

THE biggest reason why I am thankful I am not at the point of needing to go full time. I work in the electronics industry. Off-hand I'd say a 75% of the employees at all levels where I am are female. Except of course in the Engineering depart where it's only the admin. (Though if you go by a quick show of hands at many TG groups the techies are waaaaay over-represented. aka finding control or order to a live perhaps?) I have earned an enormous amount of respect of my abilities where I work by everyone from the maintenance staff, production workers, sales, and corner office. That is extremely important to me. I am damn good at what I do, just mostly near zero self esteem (baggage)

QuoteHow do you deal with the feelings of guilt for the pain and hurt your wife may feel as a result of you being trans? ... but she still feels hurt and pain due to me being trans...

Drink and/or eat heavily   

TBH-At this point in my development I feel that guilt over this is about the only justified guilt about being who and what I am. My wife was told practically on day 1 of our relationship of my gender issues, transition 'experiments', dabbling with HRT, assorted "Am I a REALLY a TS tests, with the result being "I'm just a CD". The real result really being settling on being a CD since there was no way in hell I can see me going down the transition road of life between my physicality and internalized transphobia with all it's associated baggage. She is justified in her feelings of betrayal, That deep down wish from age 4 was still there. One of her favorite questions to ask people is "What are your hopes, wishes and dreams?". I was asked that several times in our early years not really having an answer. THe slide into lifeless well underway with no hopes, wishes or dreams, bar one given up long ago.

My wife has been living with oft times debilitating chronic pain for about 15 years now. The result of falling 40ft from a tree as a teen. I mostly see this even greater pain I inflicted upon her. On her hope for any future worth living. Taken away one of the very few reason to keep up the fight making the constant rounds to doctors who are actually competent and feel we can trust beyond the "Don't worry little girl I can make it all better" platitude that completely crumbles when asked the first hard questions. (My wife was a nurse and I worked as a medical device designer for many years. We are both well versed in what idiots most doctors are)

She is justifiably concerned about "The Us", if any, in the future. While I less often hear "I did not marry a woman" then after the dropping of the T-Bomb, I believe our love for eachother is stronger then ever thanks to all the personal growth I've undergone. Besides being my reality therapist for nearly 40 years, she has also tried being my spirituality mentor. It took breaking down part of the fortified wall I built around me to finally "Get it", to which she has well earned that credit. If things keep going as they are, if we are finally able to move away from this "Village" to a place where I once again have the freedom to present part time, perhaps even if the time comes I Need to be full-time, she can see her being there with me. I have never, nor can I ever ask her to be. I did completely turn over the table and unilaterally redefined the marriage.

What she does fear most is the unknown with me. Neither of us want to stand in the way of the happiness of the other. I can say every day "I love you" or "I can never leave you, you mean so much to me" which means nothing. I am growing, I am changing, I am figuring out what really is to be me. To be and allowing my self to feel like the woman I always wished to be. Plus, as she loves to say, I am now running on another hormone system  With the very real chance of a man in my future. (She hasn't said much of her earlier and well justified fear of about every member of my TG group being an out trans, one a beautiful electrical engineer and me with a 'History' of dating trans-women) If you go by the script of some of my dreams of late, she may be well justified. With me being the hopeless romantic sentimental mush that I am our pre-nup 'open relationship' clause is not in my DNA to exercise.

QuoteMy wife accepts me, loves me and supports me, but she still feels hurt and pain due to me being trans. We both realise it is something. Have no control over. Is it something that gets better or goes away with time? Or is it the new normal now?

YMMV?

"Support", as you may have seen on Susan's by now, often erodes over time as 'IT' becomes all too real. 'The 'Hurt' may not be one-sided. People are good at lying to themselves. SO's hope it's 'Just a phase'. Especially if you drop the bomb and then...... nuttin. Too real especially when you drop the bomb and too much way too fast. And then there is "Love does not conquer all". Just as you cannot change who/what you really are inside, neither can she.

One day I stopped by for a chat with my support group moderator. Of course a little gossip came up. Silly me with a history of dating trans women said "I can't understand how such a good looking woman like ____ doesn't have a b/f?. She is post-op, smart, kick ass body, great hair, it makes no sense?" Her sage response was "It takes a special person to love a trans woman"

The New Normal for me is taking each day a it comes. A far cry different from needing to have a clear, unfogged, vision of what is around me and the path ahead. Too many unknowns. Almost total lack of control. Almost too much for this closeted control freak who has gotten the "Who made you Goddess of the Universe" speech a few times from her wife and therapists.

You try to focus on the positives and not on the pain. Pain is usually from past events. The deep hurt soon forgotten, like that of a child who fell down. The positives are what is happening now. Who you are today. Who you working on being tomorrow. Learn from history but don't live in the past. Same for an uncontrollable future. Live in the present.

Po: Maybe I should just quit and go back to ...

Oogway: Quit, don't quit...  You are too concerned about what was and what will be. There is a saying: yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the present.

Quote from: Jayne01 on December 05, 2015, 08:37:39 PM
How do you deal with the feelings of guilt for the pain and hurt your wife may feel as a result of you being trans? My wife accepts me, loves me and supports me, but she still feels hurt and pain due to me being trans.

I wanted to add my feelings even though this wasn't directed at me.

I personally do not accept any of the blame even though I knew I was trans, albeit with limited understanding, before I was married and didn't tell my wife about it.  Here is why.

My parents pretty much told me I was crazy and through their words and actions I came to believe it was something that would pass and that I would beat.  This was reinforced in an all male private high school where I was successful beyond my expectations at the time including being co-captain of the football team and valedictorian.  Following that I went to a pretty exclusive college and did very well there too.  Most of all that just due to sheer force of will rather than innate talents.

I know that me saying I knew I was trans and that I thought it would go away infers a belief that it was not an intrinsic part of myself.  These are contradictory statements.  Nevertheless, due to the limited information available at the time and parental influence I really did believe both these ideas at the same time.

So, when I got married I didn't tell my wife because I really did believe it was something I would just put away and beat it through sheer force of will, like everything else.

Sadly, I soon found out I was wrong and so began the long process of self realization, education, and decline to rock bottom.

So who do I blame.  For a while I actually blamed my wife, theorizing that if she was a better wife I would be cured.  That was really stupid of me and I am long past that.  When I finally did find the courage to tell my wife I was at rock bottom and in my mind at the time the choices were suicide or telling.  So I told and she was understanding.  Had she been condemning I likely would be dead by now.  So I credit her with saving my life and in my mind have elevated her to near goddess status.  I cannot begin to express the esteem and love I now feel, it is beyond human words.  When I stop to contemplate it I am in awe.

So, who do I blame since I refuse to accept any blame myself?  Primarily I blame the churches for their adherence to Bronze Age mythologies at the expense of modern science.  These preachers of virtue and their influence on culture are directly responsible for most of the idiotic ideas and mental walls we build as we develop on the path to self actualization.  Their god [lowercase intended] and his writings are responsible for our early self deception and false beliefs, our subsequent misery, all the discrimination, persecution, and condemnation, and the many suicides among us.  His false teachings on this matter are the ones responsible as they implanted in me a totally false self understanding and impossible expectations.  So, that is who I blame.

I may have wandered here a bit into rant mode but I feel so very strongly about this that I cannot say anything else.  I have put away any "guilt" because I think I did the best I could with the facts of my existence and upbringing.  I did not lie.  I was completely honest in coming to false conclusions based on things I had been taught were immutable.  However, these things are in fact not immutable and simply cloud the intellect, leading one down dead end paths all the while believing in it all.  I expect there are many others, especially of my generation, who might come to the same conclusion if they quietly and dispassionately sat down and examined their whole life up to the present.


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