Quote from: FtMitch on December 01, 2015, 11:30:44 AM
And the funny thing is, the older I get the less the idea of "conforming" bothers me, because I care less and less what people think and whether or not my life fits into their political or sociological ideals.  When I hear trans guys get knocked down for perpetuating stereotypes by doing things like bodybuilding, it just makes me roll my eyes.  Heck, maybe they just LIKE bodybuilding.  Just because a lot of people do it doesn't make it wrong to do. 

Exactly.

When I ask myself what it is about various male behaviors or looks that I gravitate to, I remind myself I'm not emulating them - they come natural and always have done. What hasn't come natural was the trying to be an acceptable female to society, which was awkward, uncomfortable and inhibiting for someone who is basically male.

There is some element in there of trying to improve myself and head toward a goal, but I like having a fair bit of muscle; when I look at my biceps and so on if they're looking good it's not vanity so much as it feels healthy and normal for me to have a bit of something there. Even before I realized what my beef was, I was weight training as a teen. Just because it felt healthy and right. I mean sure, there's a point when weight training becomes unhealthy, and that's kinda recognizable a mile off. It's also a self-protective measure. If you look like you have the physique to defend yourself, you're less likely to be picked on. Any schoolkid knows that too.

When people start picking on trans people because they're perpetuating stereotypes, I find they're often the sort of people who think that gender isn't real - that there's no such thing, "it's a social construct", "it doesn't matter,"; but they're also often completely blind to just how much it does matter and make a difference in everyday aspects of life, and the very fact we exist is kind of an affront to their beliefs. I used to think before I realized I was trans that men and women were much the same, and I think that stemmed from a desire to believe I had no reason to be unhappy with my body, or to feel stymied by it. But in the end, there is no denying that gender matters, it does make a difference. It doesn't have to make a huge, earth-shattering difference but it's ok to do what comes natural to a particular gender or to yourself. And if people don't like that some women like to make themselves up, some men like to bodybuild, some women like to take a backseat role, some men like to take a front seat... well, I don't even need to tell them where to stick it, because people will be people and they will act the way that makes them feel most comfortable in most situations it seems. This odd move toward telling women they cannot be weak, men shouldn't be strong, or that we all have to start subverting expectations else we'll get hit with whatever the latest buzzword label is will probably not stand the test of time and human nature.

 

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 01, 2015, 05:31:49 PM
When people start picking on trans people because they're perpetuating stereotypes, I find they're often the sort of people who think that gender isn't real - that there's no such thing, "it's a social construct", "it doesn't matter,"; but they're also often completely blind to just how much it does matter and make a difference in everyday aspects of life, and the very fact we exist is kind of an affront to their beliefs.

In a way, I do kinda think that gender is a social construct. But this is my opinion. I am not stating this as a fact. The only reason I say that is because of society's expectations that can subconsciously drive some individuals into gender roles they don't even agree with just for the sake of controlling them.

However, I absolutely know that gender does matter and certainly makes a difference in everyday aspects of life, as you put it. Indeed, that is so. But unfortunately, gender just happens to be one of those things society uses against people kinda like with food. Food can either be our greatest ally when eating healthy, or it can be our greatest foe when eating poorly. Society has a twisted way of taking something that should be beneficial to us and turn it against us. In a way, gender is so beneficial because it helps us identify ourselves as we mature.

But with society's conforming expectations, gender is not very beneficial at times because it can do the complete opposite of helping us see our true selves. The concept of gender has become so corrupted by society's hand, that humanity, I think, would be much better off without it and just allow people to be who they are instead of a man or a woman and nothing else.

*Some* aspects of gender is socially constructed, but others are apparently innate. There have been cases where boys were raised from very young ages as girls due to botched circumcision operations or disease operations in which their penis was lost and then removed. These kids weren't told they had once been boys. They were socialized as girls, raised as girls and yet they knew something was up. Many of the cases report eventual realization of the issue by the subject, a refusal to conform to the social construct given to them when there was no apparent reason to reject it - except that gender was innate in their biology and the role they had been forced to adopt was not compatible with it. Their biology knew they were boys, and it manifested itself no matter what.

That's why I believe gender, and even gender roles, aren't just social construct. The reason they became social construct in the first place is because there's a grain of biological truth in them. There is a biological reason why men tend to be more competitive and women more responsive to emotion and social for example, and why that has led to the social construct of "strong" men and "social" women. It doesn't apply to everybody, but on average yeah, you can see across the board that men dominate competitive careers and are less able to articulate their emotions on the whole. The social constructs and roles grew out of some basic natural tendencies of the sexes, but are of course massive generalizations and always will be. Social constructs are just ideas people have built upon until they become something people organize their lives around. But we know when it comes to the sexes there's reasons that, say, men protect women, and women protect children - real, logical and biological reasons. And ->-bleeped-<- proves, with little doubt, that there's something inside of people that prevents them adopting a social construct easily if their internal gender 'instinct' doesn't match the construct. I use the word instinct because for most of us, we don't even need ideas or words to feel there's a problem. There's some very real obstruction within that makes gender far more important than an external idea or lifestyle.

And then there's people like me who can ignore the roles and the constructs for the most part which should make me happier, if gender is just some idea made up by society. I should be able to ignore it, if so. But I can't because my own body rejects itself, regardless of what people say or think or what role I'm in. It literally has rejected itself biologically and chosen not to reproduce because of the condition it's in. It has a sickness, a debilitating condition that is curtailing its life - maybe not as visibly as a major physical ailment, but it has done its work all the same. I definitely think there's a lot more to it than just being a social construct. 

I´m the type who frequently jokes or makes sarcastic comments, and then laughs about their own joke or sarcastic comment. I also frequently laugh at my own mistakes and mistakes made by other people.

It´s in my nature. But the laugh always comes out really high pitched, even though naturally I have quite a deep voice. It´s weird 

My dad once said: "men don´t giggle". He was in a very authoritarian, "head of the household" kind of phase back then. This is total BS though. I know plenty of men who giggle.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on December 01, 2015, 05:31:49 PMI used to think before I realized I was trans that men and women were much the same, and I think that stemmed from a desire to believe I had no reason to be unhappy with my body, or to feel stymied by it. But in the end, there is no denying that gender matters, it does make a difference. It doesn't have to make a huge, earth-shattering difference but it's ok to do what comes natural to a particular gender or to yourself.

Reading this is like traveling back in time. Before I started exploring my gender identity I used to be mad that people would try to separate me from men, because I wanted to be the same and thus I said "there are no differences". It was only when I started to accept that there are differences, that I could start to realize that I had a suspicious amount of attributes that would commonly be male. Not always, but a lot of times.

Gosh this is a great thread to read as the cues listed as those to avoid are the ones we MTF should focus on.  Sorry I can't help but just wanted to share this thought.  😊

Quote from: VickyMI on December 04, 2015, 07:25:11 AM
Gosh this is a great thread to read as the cues listed as those to avoid are the ones we MTF should focus on.  Sorry I can't help but just wanted to share this thought.  😊

Hahahaha! That actually does make a whole lot of sense to me. What you said made me recall an old saying that goes, "One's trash is another's treasure."

This is a weird question for me, because I feel like I've become more feminine after realising I'm actually trans and coming out. I don't feel like I'm a very "manly" person to begin with, and the whole concept of gender is still a great mystery to me and I'm willing to admit it, but it doesn't really stress me out at all to be honest. I just go with what feels good. Basically I only avoid feminine things that might highlight the female shape of my body, but things like speech style and body language I originally picked from guys, I think, so I've always been rather masculine in those aspects. Sometimes even to the point where it didn't feel good, but I couldn't really do anything else because then I'd have been seen as feminine, which I absolutely tried to avoid. So now that I've given myself a bit more space to breathe with the way I present myself, I find myself picking up the more "feminine" (most of them are actually quite gender-neutral, just not overly masculine) things I avoided in the past. Fortunately I also come from a strangely gender-neutral culture, or maybe I'm just still blind to the differences.