Whew. Dinner was relaxed, but I caught an awkward glance a couple of times. Which is not to be unexpected. We were chatting afterwards and he said, "Coming to church might help give you some clarity." And I agreed, "yes, it might. And I'm all for clarity. In fact, I'm thinking more clearly and honestly than I perhaps ever have." He looked..hopeful, like I might "be healed!" Then I continued with words of wisdom from Suzifromm, Dena, Ms Grace, and others. He looked like he wanted to crawl in a hole, not embarrassed but rather...ashamed because he was judging me? Idk. I just know he had a softening to his countenance when I mentioned hard wired this way...
DenaliBe thanks for a great summation of what I wanted to get across. I spake your words almost verbatim and he was sorta quiet.
Gave me and my wife a big hug at the end of the evening as usual. I guess he's not gonna burn me at the stake anytime soon lol.
We will see, I know this journey requires a thick skin, and I guess this is a good way to figure out how to approach the naysayers.
I am grateful to you all. 

Now to get my wife to talk about this big ole elephant in the room!

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on December 19, 2015, 08:05:57 AM
Carlymcx,

You may want to double check on Methodists.  They have a very limited idea (according to the Human Rights Campaign) of GLBT inclusion.  You could add United Church of Christ (UCC-Church I grew up in), Unitarian, 3 of 4 Quaker sects and maybe the 4th., Metropolitan church, and the two largest Jewish sects in USA,(Conservative and Reform). I may very well be leaving other inclusive churches out.  Many of the mainline Protestants are reexamining their positions and this list will almost certainly grow.  I think that this movement for reappraisal is a good sign that there is an underlying groundswell of support.

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/what-is-the-denominations-position-on-homosexuality

http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/opposition-to-homophobia-and-heterosexism

I was suggested the book, "Healing the inner self, Darkness into light," by Dr Stan Fish.
Has anyone heard of or read this book? Just the title sounds a little...reparative. From the brief search I did, it sounds as if he works on ridding people from other energies/spirits? Hmmm...

OMG! If this was possible my prayers would have done it long ago. It really is still amazing to me how many of us are out there that have a strong faith that conflicts with our need to be a different gender. I too struggled with this same issue until i was introduced to a scripture passage in Matthew. I am convinced that if God cared about our gender he would have said so. However he does mention in Matthew the following.

11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

The one who can accept this should accept it."

These verses were shared by a good christian trans-woman and they spoke to me. That first line that says "Not everyone can accept these word" - Not everyone is going to understand what i am saying... This is Jesus saying that Only those that I am speaking to will understand. You could be born this way. You could be made by men or you can make yourself into this.  If this is you... than accept it.

I don't know about you, but when i read this scripture and understood the context of it, it made so much sense to me. It was like the still, small voice was saying... "I understand you and i am good with it." For so long i thought it was nothing more than the devil attacking me. Making me feel like i was a terrible christian because of what i thought at the time were vices. He just was constantly tempting me and i was failing each time.

Not everyone is going to understand us. It's important to realize that a true christian will love us despite what their personal convictions are. Too many christian focus on their version of Christianity and not God's.

John 13:34-35(KJV)

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Quote from: WaterGirl on December 19, 2015, 10:28:58 PM
Whew. Dinner was relaxed, but I caught an awkward glance a couple of times. Which is not to be unexpected. We were chatting afterwards and he said, "Coming to church might help give you some clarity." And I agreed, "yes, it might. And I'm all for clarity. In fact, I'm thinking more clearly and honestly than I perhaps ever have." He looked..hopeful, like I might "be healed!" Then I continued with words of wisdom from Suzifromm, Dena, Ms Grace, and others. He looked like he wanted to crawl in a hole, not embarrassed but rather...ashamed because he was judging me? Idk. I just know he had a softening to his countenance when I mentioned hard wired this way...
DenaliBe thanks for a great summation of what I wanted to get across. I spake your words almost verbatim and he was sorta quiet.
Gave me and my wife a big hug at the end of the evening as usual. I guess he's not gonna burn me at the stake anytime soon lol.
We will see, I know this journey requires a thick skin, and I guess this is a good way to figure out how to approach the naysayers.
I am grateful to you all. 

Now to get my wife to talk about this big ole elephant in the room!

Watergirl - your post made my day!! I am sooo happy that things went well and I could offer just a little bit of help for you to figure out what to say. I think many of us in the LGBT realm are turned off from Christianity by all of the hypocrisy of Christians (believe me I understand why!) and can't look past this to the wonderful message of love and grace from our Lord.  I truly hope and pray your friend will be able to understand you more over time and reflect that unconditional love modeled for us by Jesus in His life.

Love,
Denali

Denali
It was a start. Mind you I was presenting as my usual m self, I reckon if and when I come out and present f to him it might be a goodly bit more awkward.


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I'm glad it went well.  One thing I would like any Christian to explain to me is why they think you can pray it away when many of us have already tried that to no avail.  I prayed for a cure for 40 years.  No answer.  It finally led me to dump that whole belief system.  Either their God is a powerless myth or he hates me so further prayer and supplication is a big waste of time.

They assume up front that we are trans because we reject their God.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  They need to wake up and expand their vision to include the real world of real people.


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Deborah, I really understand where you are coming from. I still am a Christian but I'm very frustrated that it is so hard for so many that call themselves Christians can't see pass their preconceptions (and if they really followed the example of Jesus they would not have such biased and condemning spirits).

Quote from: Deborah on December 20, 2015, 12:33:26 PM
I'm glad it went well.  One thing I would like any Christian to explain to me is why they think you can pray it away when many of us have already tried that to no avail.  I prayed for a cure for 40 years.  No answer.  It finally led me to dump that whole belief system.  Either their God is a powerless myth or he hates me so further prayer and supplication is a big waste of time.

They assume up front that we are trans because we reject their God.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  They need to wake up and expand their vision to include the real world of real people.


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I tried to pray it away for about 50 years before leaving that alone. I haven't lost the faith though since I've been outed by my church around 1977. I still believe in Jesus.

Joelene

Quote from: Joelene9 on December 20, 2015, 03:48:40 PM
  I still believe in Jesus.

I still do too although my beliefs would be called heretical.  But I refuse to be called Christian.  They own that appellation and all that goes with it.


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Well... He came over again this afternoon to watch the Broncos...definitely reserved and overly polite.
Avoided any mention of "it," but that's ok. I know it's a big deal for me and my wife, but I'm cool with it not being THE topic. As I know so often happens once the news is out
Methinks I overthink things sometimes, perhaps?
Thanks again, I'm interested to see how this plays out!


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Hi WaterGirl,

I was brought up a devout Christian and have struggled with this question.

For me it comes down to this. If you spend all your life trying to bring good into the world, and walk in the same steps as Christ, and you're also transgender - will you be accepted into heaven? If you share half of what you have with a stranger in need and help others though there's nothing in it for you, and you're also transgender, what will come at judgement day?

The answer is, in Christian terms, that is entirely up to the Creator. Not you're friend, and there are also passages about casting the first stone. Has he looked in all the corners of his own house? I think the truth is every person has some vice, none of us are perfect, and your friend would be better serving Christ if he were to love you and not judge you, and instead worry about himself.

There is a lot of talk about transgender from several people in the Bible, however whenever Jesus speaks - especially in John as above - it's about not judging others; and accepting yourself and others as we are.

The other thing that I would like to add is that - unfortunately for your friend - it is not your job to fix his point of view. It is your job to know your own self and find and follow your own path, having faith it will all work out somehow.

Often for me this has meant spending less time with people who suck my energy, and more time with those who amplify it. At least while I'm trying to understand "who I am".

At least that's what I think.

xox
Samantha


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Quote from: SamKelley on December 21, 2015, 04:23:04 AM
Hi WaterGirl,

I was brought up a devout Christian and have struggled with this question.

For me it comes down to this. If you spend all your life trying to bring good into the world, and walk in the same steps as Christ, and you're also transgender - will you be accepted into heaven? If you share half of what you have with a stranger in need and help others though there's nothing in it for you, and you're also transgender, what will come at judgement day?

The answer is, in Christian terms, that is entirely up to the Creator. Not you're friend, and there are also passages about casting the first stone. Has he looked in all the corners of his own house? I think the truth is every person has some vice, none of us are perfect, and your friend would be better serving Christ if he were to love you and not judge you, and instead worry about himself.

There is a lot of talk about transgender from several people in the Bible, however whenever Jesus speaks - especially in John as above - it's about not judging others; and accepting yourself and others as we are.

The other thing that I would like to add is that - unfortunately for your friend - it is not your job to fix his point of view. It is your job to know your own self and find and follow your own path, having faith it will all work out somehow.

Often for me this has meant spending less time with people who suck my energy, and more time with those who amplify it. At least while I'm trying to understand "who I am".

At least that's what I think.

xox
Samantha


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Samantha,
Thank you for the advice. I am repeatedly gratified by the wonderful support here.
I've always been aware of the hypocrisy of many "religious" people, and since I came out (to myself, too, if that makes any sense) it has become even more apparent.  I wish more people would remember the fundamental message is love, not judgement. 

I need to remember your words about my job being to know myself, not fix my friend's view.

Hugs,
Katie

Quote from: AmandaDanielle on December 20, 2015, 11:04:44 AM
OMG! If this was possible my prayers would have done it long ago. It really is still amazing to me how many of us are out there that have a strong faith that conflicts with our need to be a different gender. I too struggled with this same issue until i was introduced to a scripture passage in Matthew. I am convinced that if God cared about our gender he would have said so. However he does mention in Matthew the following.

11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

The one who can accept this should accept it."

These verses were shared by a good christian trans-woman and they spoke to me. That first line that says "Not everyone can accept these word" - Not everyone is going to understand what i am saying... This is Jesus saying that Only those that I am speaking to will understand. You could be born this way. You could be made by men or you can make yourself into this.  If this is you... than accept it.

I don't know about you, but when i read this scripture and understood the context of it, it made so much sense to me. It was like the still, small voice was saying... "I understand you and i am good with it." For so long i thought it was nothing more than the devil attacking me. Making me feel like i was a terrible christian because of what i thought at the time were vices. He just was constantly tempting me and i was failing each time.

Not everyone is going to understand us. It's important to realize that a true christian will love us despite what their personal convictions are. Too many christian focus on their version of Christianity and not God's.

John 13:34-35(KJV)

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

I love this.  Thank you for sharing!  I really needed to hear that, because I too am a Christian and have a hard time meshing it all together.

A good friend I came out to accepts me, and says that God made me as He did... so of course He accepts me.

Quote from: Deborah on December 20, 2015, 12:33:26 PM
I'm glad it went well.  One thing I would like any Christian to explain to me is why they think you can pray it away when many of us have already tried that to no avail.  I prayed for a cure for 40 years.  No answer.  It finally led me to dump that whole belief system.  Either their God is a powerless myth or he hates me so further prayer and supplication is a big waste of time.

They assume up front that we are trans because we reject their God.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  They need to wake up and expand their vision to include the real world of real people.


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Deborah, I can relate!  I too have prayed to be "normal" to no avail.  I wonder if our prayers are not answered to fix us, because there is nothing "wrong" with us.  I suspect we take on the self-loathing because of man, not because of God. 

Quote from: Tommi on December 21, 2015, 01:51:10 PMDeborah, I can relate!  I too have prayed to be "normal" to no avail.  I wonder if our prayers are not answered to fix us, because there is nothing "wrong" with us.  I suspect we take on the self-loathing because of man, not because of God.

I'm pretty sure it is man.  I have to believe God is more concerned with our hearts and how we treat each other than the other stuff.  I did say I dumped Christianity, which is true, but my belief in God remains.  (Despite my best efforts to get rid of that too.  LOL)


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Quote from: Deborah on December 20, 2015, 12:33:26 PM
One thing I would like any Christian to explain to me is why they think you can pray it away when many of us have already tried that to no avail.  I prayed for a cure for 40 years.  No answer.  It finally led me to dump that whole belief system.  Either their God is a powerless myth or he hates me so further prayer and supplication is a big waste of time.

The Christians typically put the blame on the transgender person - they claim that the transgender person doesn't have enough faith or that they aren't praying hard enough or that they need to attend church more or that they need to seek God more - and then, ironically, they throw us out of the church. It's always a failure on the transgender person's part.

They can't accept that maybe they are the ones with the skewed view of scripture and that being transgender is not a sin, and that their faith system doesn't operate on how hard people try.

The lack of empathy and understanding and the judging of people is the real problem. It's no wonder that people are walking away from the church after getting that kind of help.

Quote from: Joelene9 on December 20, 2015, 03:48:40 PM
  I tried to pray it away for about 50 years before leaving that alone. I haven't lost the faith though since I've been outed by my church around 1977. I still believe in Jesus.

Joelene

Joelene I agree with both you and Deborah. The God I see in the Bible is not reflected in the way you have been treated by church members. God is agape love*.  The church has lost some great people when they lost the both of you. The God I know will not think the less of people that don't fit into an arbitrary mode that others make for you,

* Love so deep and limitless that it leaves you in a state of wonder or amazement, as with the mouth wide open. ... Love as revealed in Jesus, seen as spiritual and selfless and a model for humanity. 

Christianity to me is beautiful. Its traditions (mainly), its story and the lesson of Christ awesome. I profess the faith and attend a liberal church. Christians on the other hand, they are a very mixed bag as the famous Gandhi quote goes.

There are zero incompatibilities with anyone's transition and the faith. Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply exercising their faith as sport, and incorrectly at that. It is easy to say look, i'm going to take this book and say it is 100% literally accurate and everything we need to know about anything " and " i also attend this group i call a church with lots of people who believe this just like me " and now i want you to be just like us. That isn't faith it is a cult.

How strange that all sounds when you look at it like this.

Though im not religious or a believer myself im pretty sure there is no passage in the bible that is even about being transgender. If there is s god of some kind im pretty sure he wouldnt condem someone for simply being themselves. In fact i would say that this god would simply want people to be kind, good and accepting of people for who they are.

Quote from: Shannon morgan on December 21, 2015, 06:35:57 PM
Though im not religious or a believer myself im pretty sure there is no passage in the bible that is even about being transgender.

No, but there are Eunuchs mention in both the Hebrew and Christian bibles. They didn't have GRS in those days, nor did they have the language to describe a transgender woman, but eunuchs were as close to trans women as they came. They were males assigned at birth who had given up their masculinity.

From Isaiah 56:4-5,

QuoteFor thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

"...name better than of sons and daughters..." Could be interpreted as a biblical justification for choosing a new name that matches our gender, no?

From Matthew 19:12, reported to be the words of Jesus:

QuoteFor there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

Sounds like Jesus didn't have a problem with us either.