What is it that causes so many of us to be so very critical of each other. I get it, that we all have our own unique journeys but it's not the only story that's valid. I look at Caitlyn Jenner and her bravery and courage to come out so publicly has been a blessing to our community. If nothing else, we have to admit, she has greatly raised the awareness of our situation.  Yet, sadly I see the vicious attacks by so many of us, what a sad example of how to behave. How can we ask for acceptance and tolerance when we cannot even accept one of our own???

I guess the issue with Jenner is that she brings a lot of other stuff to the table that people find extremely unpalatable - the whole Kardashian thing, her conservative political views, being very rich, you name it. Those kind of issues really muddy up the water. I guess most trans people don't care one way or the other about her being trans, it's what she represents to them that they don't like.

As a person who studiously avoids the Kardashian circus I'd never even heard of Jenner until the rumours about transition started up, so I felt ambivalent about her then and I still do. Good on her, good luck to her, etc. But you're rarely going to get a rational discussion about her because people won't separate her trans identity from her celebrity identity and whatever part of it is that makes them go all rage bananas.

That said...


Anyone who starts bashing on Jenner or other celebs or whoever in this thread can expect to get shut down ASAP. Thanks.

I like Cait. It took something to be herself in the media circus. She's got every right to have her own views  that's democracy . I wish I had some of her money , but I don't and just can't waste my life worrying about it. I do wish  I had that black lace dress of hers.

I wish the Transgender community could create a perfect harmony of working together and achieving goals , but we are part of society and society for some reason refuses to fulfill the human potential for greatness.

Quote from: warlockmaker on January 04, 2016, 10:47:05 PM
What is it that causes so many of us to be so very critical of each other.

Really good question, warlockmaker. I wonder if the fact that so many of us have had to fight hard to be who we are, the combativeness reflex tends to get triggered easily.

Quote from: warlockmaker on January 04, 2016, 10:47:05 PM
What is it that causes so many of us to be so very critical of each other.

Its human nature. There's an illusion of community, but the only thing we all have in common is being transgender. That's not a lot. I find there's a surprising lack of tolerance in our "community"; surprising because we're so often victims of intolerance ourselves.

Personally I know almost nothing of Caitlyn Jenner, actually nothing of whatever Kardashian is, and no interest at all. I might be interested in certain people, but I've no interest in celebrity. We're all different.

Warlockmaker, I have to agree with everything you say. Unfortunately it speaks to the "human condition",not just the transgender community. Take a look at the world in general, the ability of the human species to hate one another is really mind boggling. Without getting wordy or pseudoscientific I suppose it's a flaw buried in the brain of all humans. A remnant of our dark past that only is overcome by huge effort on an individuals part. Sadly a lot of humans don't seem to want to continue to evolve to a better form.

I have no problem with Caitlyn Jenner, but I find it a bit worrying that she is considered "transgender people's spokesperson". I don't know if any one person is qualified to be that, especially considering her experience is not going to be the average transgender person's experience (money, media exposure, protection, etc.) and it could be that she only gets the attention she does because of fame.

The distaste for Jenner I see among some cis and trans people seems to stem from two things from what I see - an annoyance with celebrities and having the issue shoved in their faces by the media, and a worry that the level of sudden exposure caused by her in the media has caused many trans people to feel uncomfortable as suddenly everyone around them started discussing trans matters around them or in front of them.

Personally I feel as though trans issues shouldn't be pushed into the general public's faces or sensationalized - I think they are more likely to accept us if they don't feel like it's a celebrity story, which automatically translates as trivial/faddish/freakish to some people. Some in the trans community would like even more visibility of trans people but I think a balance of tentative visibility and low profile works better for most of us in practice.

I asked a question in another place a while back about whether or not trans people feel more safe or less safe these days, and I found a split between people who think things are improving, and people who don't - primarily because the visibility of trans people now means more people are aware of how to "spot" us, or what our "tells" might be. Some even directly mentioned Jenner's story lately as the main reason their life was becoming more difficult. In the long run I know visibility is really the only way to foster understanding and therefore acceptance, but a softly softly approach does it best I think rather than in-your-face type broadcasting.

But who knows, maybe it was a large step forward in acclimating the rest of the world to something that is just not that terrifying or strange. With more and more of it it will become part of normality - it just takes time. 

I think if one is in a position to be stealth one day then all the attention and focus might be undesired.  For someone who cannot be stealth due to personal history or any other reason all this attention can be nothing but helpful in the long run.  Information is getting out there that is slowly erasing the stigma.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We're told by society constantly that we have no right to even exist. We fight those demons in our heads every day.

So when someone does something that threatens our credibility, reinforces stereotypes that we're constantly trying to escape, makes us feel like we ourselves lose credibility because of what someone else has done, things can get snippy and defensive.

This, I believe is where pretty much ALL of the intra-fighting in the trans community comes from. It's all about that defensive state of mind where we're constantly under pressure to prove our "realness" and our right to be who we know we are.

We all want what we don't have.  Let's get back to the community thing.  We are grouped together because we are all transgender.  However, we have a number of differences.

I'm a 53 year old MTF who spent around 13 years in college and got a good job pretransition. I have insurance and money for surgery, clothes, electrolysis, you name it.  I have paid time off.  I have a wife with me, I have some family with me.  It all "looks" great. 

Take another MTF, but they are 21, in college, working and they have no money, no time and their family is not supportive.  It "looks" bad for them.

Compare the two.  The younger is jelous of me because of money.  I'm jelous of them because of youth.  I would relive my life very differently.  Therefore, we argue.

In reality, we both have problems, many of which are the same, many of which are different.  It is up to us to help each other or to carry bags of bitterness around.

Too many seem to like to bags. 

In reality, I work around 70 hours a week in a job I mostly hate. I have few friends because I have no time.  I have to save money for retirement so that I don't starve in a few years.  My wife gets bored and picks fights and the loving family really wants their brother back.  And I'm only going to live my life as me for a few years.

In reality, the younger will have a long transition.  But the friends are great.  The work isn't bad.  And the parents were jerks before.  This only gave them another reason to be critical.  There is promise of a better future if they live through this time.

One is worse than a quick look and the other is marginally  better.  But neither has been in the others shoes.  Its different living a life than observing a life.

In the end, it's about selfishness vs. selflessness. 

Jennifer

for me it has been Jenner warped the opinions of what trans should be to family. they couldn't understand why I just wanted to fit in after coming out, repeatedly telling me things like I should be out and proud shouting it from the roof tops, some of them couldn't understand this so much that they took it upon themselves to do it for me only days after telling my closest people. even other family chimed in and told them this isn't your story to tell.

Quote from: Mavis on January 05, 2016, 12:09:06 PM
for me it has been Jenner warped the opinions of what trans should be to family. they couldn't understand why I just wanted to fit in after coming out, repeatedly telling me things like I should be out and proud shouting it from the roof tops, some of them couldn't understand this so much that they took it upon themselves to do it for me only days after telling my closest people. even other family chimed in and told them this isn't your story to tell.

To be fair, I've had people expect this of me long before KJ. Gay people are either "out" or "not out", so people assume it's the same for us. They don't realize that for us, our gender history and plans are something private that we share when we wish.

Quote from: warlockmaker on January 04, 2016, 10:47:05 PM
What is it that causes so many of us to be so very critical of each other...

How can we ask for acceptance and tolerance when we cannot even accept one of our own???

warlockmaker, I'm generally a half-glass full kind of gal, so I'd like to first say there's a lot of love and support on this forum so it's certainly not like we are all chronically locked in critical mode. But I get your point, even within our own group we can have trouble understanding our differences and that can manifest itself in unfair criticism of one another. Dysphoria can manifest itself in many ways among individuals and our gender identity doesn't always fit completely into the male or female box. For example, it seems unfair to me to say that someone's gd isn't worthy of the opportunity to transition because the gd isn't so bad that they are suicidal and absolutely feeling they can no longer live as the gender they were born in. For some people the right path is not as clear as it is for others, but it doesn't mean that the gd isn't significantly affecting their quality of life. Let's be careful we aren't subconsciously saying others have to fit into our own image of what a trans person should be like in the same way that cis people instinctively do to us. Everyone of us is a unique and special person, let's help each other to realize our full potential, allowing each other to follow our own path to a happy and fulfilled life.

i read Stephen King once where he said "as a species we are constantly looking for the mutant," presumably so we can all band together against the "other" and say 'let's go get em'." so we can feel less alone? idk.
it's pretty toxic and medieval but there it is.

Eh... harmony is boring and unproductive. A little discord is good for any group, because it acts as a deterrent to groupthink. Toxicity is just as boring and unproductive. What every group should strive for is the proper balance of discord and civility. As long as group members can disagree, offer each other constructive criticism, and get along during and afterwards... they can't stagnate or explode. The trans community is no different. When people criticize Caitlyn Jenner for her classism and internalized transphobia, that's a good thing. It's when the attacks leave the realm of the constructive and become personal that things become a problem.

<_< And, in any case, it's a bit of a lark to say the trans community is our own worst enemy. We have much worse enemies out there.

Tamika, I do agree with the "our own worst enemy". I can shrug off (doesn't matter) calling me with female pronouns by my cis friends, even if they know I feel different, but when a trans person questions my identity or mixes it up, I'm annoyed as hell. Or might even feel hurt. When supposedly the people who should understand you/go through similar things as you not only don't offer support but try to fit you where THEY would like to see you, isn't it the worst?

I'm bisexual, mostly my existence is ignored by LGBT people and supporters. Or those anty. It's usually LGT. To the point of "if there would be only homo, we would die as a species" type of arguments (hey but bi exist!). I'm speaking of my experiences in my own country (and Indonesia LGBT forum too).

I have friends who accept me the way I am and don't deny my identification. That's my shelter.

Who could be worse enemy than supposed ally who should know (understand) better (than regular people) what were you going through?

As for C. Jenner, I don't care. Spokesperson? I can understand a spokesperson for a certain organisation but for a community of various people? Can't understand it.

Quote from: warlockmaker on January 04, 2016, 10:47:05 PM
What is it that causes so many of us to be so very critical of each other. I get it, that we all have our own unique journeys but it's not the only story that's valid. I look at Caitlyn Jenner and her bravery and courage to come out so publicly has been a blessing to our community. If nothing else, we have to admit, she has greatly raised the awareness of our situation.  Yet, sadly I see the vicious attacks by so many of us, what a sad example of how to behave. How can we ask for acceptance and tolerance when we cannot even accept one of our own???

Dear WLM:

When I transitioned in the early 2000 things were different and yet today much the same. This is the perspective I comment from.  In addition, I'm somewhat center-right politically and fiscally, pretty low key socially, deeply committed to capitalism and the free marketplace, and believe all forms of extremism and fundamentalism are hateful and recessive.  (You have been warned . . .      LOL)

Consider for a moment that if we were to change the medical/behavioral nature of the conversation from GID to say obesity, then I think we might view the social discourse and its impact somewhat differently, including what the question means.  (BTW: I'm not an expert in obesity and picked it only for reasons of how society seems to respond to that condition and the potential similarities to transgender, aka GID).  I see many parallels between to the two conditions, their afflicted membership, stereotyping, and the associated attractors and detractors.  YMMV here, but for the sake of the conversation let's continue if you can.

At my time of transition, I thought there would be a general sense of common purpose and togetherness in the LGBT community and even more so in the trans-community.  I was shocked during my first year at how unaligned, competitive and dismissive the four major sun-communities were with regard to each other, and to this day that still exists more or less, though the ilk's of HRC for example decry this being pointed out.   Sure, there were and are a few exceptions such as Susan's Place, Lambda . . . but they do not constitute a viable unifying voice community wide; HRC tries and perhaps in time they'll make a real dent in this matter.   

As a counter example to the LGBT community, consider the NRA (and forget whatever you may think of them), and consider how tightly their membership (public, private and corporate) are wired together.  Again, put aside all your personal notions about the NRA, except for their sense of a single voice, efforts to mobilize the community when needed, exercise political power and the ability to raise money!  Believe me, for 3-4 million people (and I'm not a member), they have their act together.  And yes, there is carping from the peanut gallery but that never gets in way of their mission.   

And therein is gist of the matter.  The trans-community does not have an articulated mission that is broadly and deeply bought into.  When someone tries to do so, they typically find themselves in skirmish after skirmish with some faction or another that has an axe to grind rather being willing to play a bigger game at the potential sacrifice of their or some one's personal agenda.  (Jenner is a good example and I'm not defending her, but the community can't seem to wait to make her wrong; what a waste!)  In my experience, the trans-community (I am one and love us to death) would rather quibble over lesser matters of someone's perceived correctness and lack of acceptance versus creating a big enough tent for most TGs to gather under and pursue a broader agenda that may not be optimum for anyone but better for all.     

If this sounds like the political landscape in the US today, it should.  Until we can get over being special in order to collectively be great, don't expect to see much cohesion and unification that makes much difference in our society.  To put it another way, we are where the gay community was 30-50 years ago depending upon geography, social status and income - the drivers of just about all human behavior.  We have a ton of work to do that demands we agree to disagree on lesser details but are jointly undefeatable on the larger issues of pursuit of happiness, fairness, and equal opportunity.   

Well, there you have it: The Good, The Bad and Ugly.  But please keep in mind this is only my voice, and be advised if you begin to believe and behave as if this were true you are going be dropped from several people's socially desirable's list.  I'm in my 70s and could give a flip!   


Rachel

Great posts and most thought provoking. Some response to points raised:

I think certain  people can be jealous when someone has wealth to do as they want. I remember a Hong Kong that respected those who worked to achieve their success and I'm told that was also true in the USA.

I understand that those who have battled their whole lives to be who they are, have this battling mentality ingrained into their persona. Today, our transition is so much easier and we tend to forget that. And it will get even better as more people choose to understand us. I'm a great believer in 'if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

Anyone who says they represent the transgender community is under immediate attack. ...we are like the Republican candidates ready to tear at each other. But someone, one day needs to represent us.

Just some thoughts.....

Warlockmaker, bow about several someones being a representative of a community? Several various someones, with different passing, situation, views etc.

Mtf, with children won't be really representing me ftm without children (my plan for life). Different needs.