Often when I thinking at the middle-east, I think at strict rules and no democracy. The first thing that I think is discrimination, old fashioned rules, forced clothes codes etc. After googling in several days, I found out some of these stereotype isn't true.

In Iran, a middle-eastern country accept transgenders. Transgenders can get medical treatment. That's something that made me surprised, because Iran give women lesser rights than men. They has also other fundamentalist values and a strictly religious government with sharia law. There aren't any democracy and the death penalty is strict. Doing homosexual activity are illegal in Iran. Some gays have been hanged or got any form for death penalty because they had gay sex or relationship. Some religious leaders in Iran defend transgenders and says they are born that way. So Iran is accepting the T in the LGBT. A trans man is allowed to marry a woman post-op and a trans woman is allowed to marry a man post-op in Iran. In Saudi Arabia being transgender or doing homosexual activity are illegal. So Iran accept one thing, Saudi none.

Did you know this or did this surprise you? Are there any Middle-east facts that surprised you?
(If you don't believe me, you can check it up at google, wikipedia and YouTube. The Young Turks discussed that topic)

But did you know that families of gay men often force them to transition to women because homosexuality is illegal. They also feel this pressure from the various religious leaders in Iran. There was an interesting Our World documentary about it on the BBC.

Ellis is correct, many gay cis men are forced to undergo transition to female since Iran refuses to recognise homosexuality. I have no idea if they allow transition from female to male.

#%/¤@!!!???  I thought Iran was humane at that place, even it's a dictatorship with a fundamentalist and religious government.  I've heard some gays are forced indirect or direct to change their gender by their relative. (I use the term gender about cispeople doing that) But I though there were a humane way too, where trans women volunteer themselves to get treatment. But doesn't they do female to male, but only male to female? That's not fair if they do only one way. Not enough with that... the politic isn't humane. I doesn't get it why so many are against all kinds of LGBT... There are more than 80 countries in the world that has a inhumane law against LGBT* in difference forms.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on January 12, 2016, 02:55:24 PM
I doesn't get it why so many are against all kinds of LGBT... There are more than 80 countries in the world that has a inhumane law against LGBT* in difference forms.

Well, in 100% of those 80 countries it's because God said so.


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Quote from: Sebby Michelango on January 12, 2016, 02:55:24 PM
#%/¤@!!!???  I thought Iran was humane at that place, even it's a dictatorship with a fundamentalist and religious government.  I've heard some gays are forced indirect or direct to change their gender by their relative. (I use the term gender about cispeople doing that) But I though there were a humane way too, where trans women volunteer themselves to get treatment. But doesn't they do female to male, but only male to female? That's not fair if they do only one way. Not enough with that... the politic isn't humane. I doesn't get it why so many are against all kinds of LGBT... There are more than 80 countries in the world that has a inhumane law against LGBT* in difference forms.

Just wanted to add that in that documentary they didn't mention anything about trans men or forcing lesbian to transition to male. Probably because they still have the old fashioned believe that we don't exist.

It's also the country where, a couple of years ago, police crashed into a family home, drug their 14 year old son out in the street and, in front of his family, put a bullet in the back of his head because he was gay.

I once met somebody who spent five years in an Iranian prison.  The details actually lowered my opinion of the regime. 

Transgender men on the other hand.... try finding a case for those in Iran.

You are right, Iran does accept transgender individuals as regular citizens, and offer them both protection  and treatment. The latter includes the psychological and medical (hrt, etc) aspects.

HOWEVER, non-op are NEVER ACCEPTED OR EVEN TOLERATED. You have to agree to be FULLY reassigned to your identified gender to qualify for the recognition and treatment, and that is a matter of policy.

Yes, it's really not so much proper 'acceptance' of transgender individuals and issues but reassignment for biological born male individuals who if they didn't transition would probably face severe consequences for being effeminate or crossdressing.

As far as I know there is no provision for biologically born females who wish to be men.

Probably because in the Koran there is mention of "what to do with effeminate men" being asked, and being answered to the effect of "well, don't kill them... but do something about them so that we don't have to kill them or be embarrassed by them." And the question is never asked for FTM so basically no provision exists for them.

Better than nothing if you're MTF... but not exactly what I'd call a country "accepting" of transgender people. It is trying to find a solution to homosexuality or effeminate men by making them women. Not by accepting the condition.

Thanks for all the replies. I've done more research now and you're rights. They doesn't accept transgenders fully, they just tolerate some kinds. They are very homophobic and some transphobic too. Some countries are stuck in the medieval time. Dictatorship and the discrimination is ridiculous.

QuoteAs far as I know there is no provision for biologically born females who wish to be men.

Are you calling trans men females?  I'm not a biologically female. My brain has a difference structure, it's more manly formed. Even guys who have feminine sides have still a difference brain than women. There are male and female brain. My brain is biologically male and it's not like we wish to be something when we are it. I'm a guy with XX set chromosomes and I don't like to be called a woman. I prefer you using "assigned at birth", if you want to refer to the chromosomes and what the doctors guessed. If we're talking biology, we're talking biology. That means biologically I have XX chromosomes, but my brain doesn't match what I got assigned . My brain is biologically a male and even I have feminine sides, doesn't it change the fact what I am. Brain is biology too. Hope this explains well.

Of course you are biollgically a man in the sense that in your part of the brain that determines gender (the hypothalamus) is a male one. Plus, you identify as a male so no doubt about that. I don't think; howerver, that the OP meant it in a bad way.

Rita

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on January 13, 2016, 10:09:20 AM

Are you calling trans men females? 

Obviously not. I am a biologically born female, but as far as I am concerned I am a man. It would be confusing if I said men who were born women are not allowed to be men than if I just stated the scientific fact - biologically born females who feel they are men - i.e. transmen. Men who were born with female bodies - i.e. born biologically female in the strict scientific definition. I guess my academic background in biology means I tend to define strictly and not for the sake of not bothering or offending somebody. Even the term transmen means "crossing over to" (male), not born biologically male.

In this case I'm talking about how the Iranian authorities are dealing with trans people - on account of the biological characteristics they were born with. They don't even acknowledge transmen exist.

QuoteI'm not a biologically female. My brain has a difference structure, it's more manly formed. Even guys who have feminine sides have still a difference brain than women. There are male and female brain. My brain is biologically male and it's not like we wish to be something when we are it. I'm a guy with XX set chromosomes and I don't like to be called a woman. I prefer you using "assigned at birth", if you want to refer to the chromosomes and what the doctors guessed. If we're talking biology, we're talking biology. That means biologically I have XX chromosomes, but my brain doesn't match what I got assigned . My brain is biologically a male and even I have feminine sides, doesn't it change the fact what I am. Brain is biology too. Hope this explains well.

I am talking biology and doctors, biologists and scientists would refer to you as biologically born female, or something similar when looking at your medical records, because no matter what your gender reads as on forms or how you feel inside or what terms our community has for what we are this is what science and the medical profession will label you as when dealing with you. Because if you have XX set of chromosomes and are not intersex I am assuming you have female organs. Whether you consider yourself male or no, you still have those female organs and were born "biologically female" as far as science defines female. 

If you go into a hospital do you think it would be helpful if they believed you were biologically born male even if you happen to have a problem that might stem from or affect your female organs? What if you happened to develop ovarian cancer? I hope you do not of course, but if you did, hypothetically, denying and ignoring the fact you have/had female biology might lead to death. Which is why they always keep the records of what you were born with biologically.

I'm a dude, but I have female organs, at least for now. I deal with it.

I am sure I once saw a documentary on transgendered people in Iran. That portayed a ftm going through the process of transition. Hang on.. here it is: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azyt9aF_0Gk&sns=sms

Rita

It's an interesting disconnect in their thinking.  Some people in Iran, just like some people in every society, are gay or lesbian.  Evidently the repulsion and hostility about homosexuality in Iranian society is so profound that they have come up with a medical model of it: all homosexuals are transgendered.  And therefore, all homosexuals must either be severely punished or at least compelled to submit to mandatory sex reassignment to bring them into alignment with expected gender norms.

We know from our own experience here that the outcome of gender transition is not always foreseeable from the start of the process.  Some m to f folks who start the process anticipating that they will relate to men at the end finish the transition either bisexual or lesbian in their orientation.  It makes you wonder what the Iranians would make of a transwoman who turns out lesbian in sexual orientation.  I guess, applying their own cultural rules, they would take this transwoman and force her to transition back to male?

While this view of gender nonconformity as a medical issue may benefit a few trans folks in Iran by offering at least a pathway to transition, it isn't progressive.  In fact, it's just the opposite.  Imagine being gay or lesbian in Iran, but not transgendered.  The prospect of choosing between severe punishment (imprisonment or even death) and mandatory involuntary sexual reassignment is barbaric.  Our focus in our community is how to make transition possible for those who desperately want or need it.  Imagine how awful it would be to force gender transition on those who neither need or want it.

Several years ago, the then Iranian President Ahmadinejad (thank god he's GONE!) startled and amused the world by assuring the General Assembly of the United Nations that the Islamic Republic had NO homosexuals.  I guess in his view, anyone who seems like a homosexual was just a criminal awaiting punishment or an incipient medical problem pending appropriate treatment.  Sad, so sad.

As awful as this is, we needn't feel too superior.  Despite recent progress, the United States is still not very evolved on gender issues.  And there's plenty of room for regression.  Imagine where we might be in couple of years with a President Cruz or Huckabee . . .

This docu is news to me. I looked for information on FTM in Iran a few years ago and found nothing. Not even information from religious advisors on websites regarding FTM back then, even though there was info for MTF transition. Perhaps it's a new development.

As in the link there a man states Muslims ask "is being transgender a sin?" and he states that unless something is specifically written in the Koran that it is a sin, then it is permissable. Sex change operations were not around when the Koran was written and so cannot be a sin, although whether one should cut one's body [surgically] if it is not for the purpose of saving one's life is moot which is why some Muslims argue sex changes are haram. Homosexuality is explicitly mentioned as a sin in the Koran however. It seems to me that the transgender issue here is being confused with sexuality more than it is with innate identity and being used as a means to prevent people "sinning", at least in a a certain number of cases. Not ideal at all, although I suppose perhaps more preferable than a violent death or a lifetime of celibacy and not being able to have your own family.

Looks like at least some of the patients there are concerned with their sexuality rather than their identity and they need to have these trans operations in Iranian society to be allowed to have relations with other people. It's quite tragic if that is the case and they are not actually transsexual, but simply homosexual.

You mean that if I was in Iran I could have transitioned earlier and  I would have been expected to do it! Woo Hoo! That would be great if they could get rid of the hate in religion.

Years ago a friend of mine from a neighbouring country to Iran (a very homophobic and transphobic one) was desperately trying to get Iranian citizenship so she could have her transition covered and have all the protection that comes with it. Not sure how she got on in the end. 

Quote
If you go into a hospital do you think it would be helpful if they believed you were biologically born male even if you happen to have a problem that might stem from or affect your female organs? What if you happened to develop ovarian cancer? I hope you do not of course, but if you did, hypothetically, denying and ignoring the fact you have/had female biology might lead to death. Which is why they always keep the records of what you were born with biologically.

If I was at a hospital I wouldn't denying it. Because that is another situation. But in a debate I can show people I can deny it. The brain is biological too, not only the sex organs or my chromosomes. So it's not 100% correct saying I'm (only) biological female. What I understand, the brain count too. So therefor I think it's not exactly right. Many speak "baby language", so people would easier understand, but the terms aren't fully right. I understand the scientist and the doctors uses the term "Biological female" because their topics are so difficult to understand. Many people hasn't so much knowledge about the topic and therefor the pro' have to talk baby language. The brain and the body is very difficult to understand, even for the scientist. In fact a trans man is assumed female/assigned female at birth. The biology is split in two if you're going to be more exactly. The brain is biological male. But now I think we can quit this discussion and rather talk about the other topic in this thread.

Thanks for giving me replies. Have a nice day.