Let me preface this post by saying that I certainly understand why many trans individuals focus very heavily on passing and that I'm aware that being passable can certainly make it less likely, although not impossible, that you will be harassed in your daily life. However, I can to the realization recently that I simply don't care about being passable. Given where I am in my life and my financial situation I can't afford to get many of the procedures and such done which I would like, and for quite some time this left me feeling extremely depressed. I knew in my heart that I am a woman, but despite that every day I would look in the mirror and see this male face looking back at me and even after I came out as a trans woman I thought to myself that there was no way I could ever wear women's clothes or anything in public until I had gotten considerable hair removal and been on hormones for some time at the very least. But then I began reading a lot of philosophy and researching quantum physics and wrapping my brain around concepts which are almost too complex for the human mind to understand and I realized that in the grand scheme of things nothing that myself or anyone else does really matters. This is an idea that can really zap a person motivation, but for me it was a liberating realization because it made me see that the only things I should worry about in life are being kind to others and pursuing the things that make me happy regardless of what other people say or think or even do about it. I'm 22 years old and I spent almost that entire time trying to be something I'm not because I was born with a penis between my legs and I'm just done with that. I may not be able to afford  a bunch of procedures and hormones and stuff right now, but if I'm thrifty with my money I can invest in a high quality wig, I'm balding sadly, and start building up a larger collection of the fun feminine clothes that I love to wear and which make me feel like myself. I've already been practicing doing my make-up and have gotten pretty proficient with that and it's been months since I last left the house without my nails painted or my jewelry on and I just want to take the next step even if that means people are going to call me names or possibly even attack me. Those are worries that will never go away no matter how passable I am, so I'd rather start presenting myself outwardly the way I have always been on the inside now rather than wait what could be 10 or more years for when I have the money to afford things like hair removal and surgeries. I'm not ashamed of who I am, and if other people can't accept me then that is their problem and not mine. I have wonderful supportive friends and with their help I know I can endure just about anything the world may throw at me. I just felt like sharing this because I haven't posted here in a while and I thought maybe sharing my thoughts and resolve might help someone else feel empowered to be who they truly are. I've already wasted a quarter of my life being something I'm not because I was afraid and I won't let fear rule me anymore.

I think the obsession with passing is  pretty entertaining. I present as a mix of male and female.
Do I pass? I most certainly do. Flawlessly...as someone presenting as a mix of male and female! 

Be yourself, not someone else's expectations.

Hugs, Devlyn

"Passing "   the great conundrum of the 21st and possibly the 22nd century hopefully by the 23 rd century as far as pertaining too anything transgender will have vanished into oblivion.

That was a tough read. Paragraphs would have been helpful.

I kind of understand what you mean but understand that many people don't need surgery, (I assume FFS) to pass. It certainly makes it easier but it is by no means a deal breaker.

Hormones and a doctor aren't that expensive if you are in certain areas of the US and have access to low cost clinics. Big box stores sell the pills for $4 or $10 a scrip. Some of the low cost clinics have subsidized pharmacies for low income patients as well. I don't even know what country you're in but I am relating what we have in the USA. Some countries have national healthcare which basically means low or no cost but could mean extra gatekeeping and waiting lists (I'm looking at you, UK NHS.)

But if "passing" doesn't matter to you for reasons other than you can't afford it, that's fine too. For me and many others it is important, as it is a safety issue since I would need to go to places where LGBT anything means assault or murder.

Everyone has their own path and preference. What works for you works for you only and may not for me.

Take care.

I think it is important to be yourself and to be proud of yourself. There is certainly no shame and no reason for transgender people not to be accepted as normal men and women in society.

Certainly as Kate points out, some places are unsafe for transgender people and people who are gender diverse need to blend in order to be safe.

In my case I live in a society that is extremely accepting of gender diverse people and to be honest I don't care in the slightest if I 'pass' or not. It is certainly less pressure that way.

What I have learned over a life that has been difficult is to live every day as it is my last, to respect others and to help others no matter who they are.

I treat people as I expect to be treated myself, and it has worked.

One day everyone will follow the same creed, at least I hope so.

I'm not sure my poor little human mind could ever understand quantum thingys  I think I tried to pay attention for, like, one physics lesson then spent the rest of the time talking and passing notes 

But what you've said is fine, I mean, it's a perfectly valid viewpoint in my opinion but what it doesn't do is get over the fact that passing is nice. It doesn't happen for me all the time; but I can walk around in public, go out and socialise and shop and whatever whilst just blending in. And, sorry if this sounds selfish, but I really want the full experience if that makes sense? 

I am, inside, a late twenty-something single girl; slightly dreamy, slightly dippy and not overly ambitious but trying to be  a nice person. Which I can do, and I can use make-up and clothes and hair to fool society into thinking that's all I am. But it doesn't do anything for me when I come home at night and take it all off again. Then I'm back to where I started. 

So with that in mind, rather than having to create my identity using clever costumes, I'd rather make it part of myself. I'll get the surgeries, have myself cut to bits and emerge re-born as someone very ordinary. Just the ordinary someone I've always wanted to be, rather than something I'm not. 

And also I'm not an activist or a pioneer or something. I just want a life, I don't always want to be defined by a particular label? For me it's not about being the visible face of a minority, it's more about gritting my teeth and going in for the long haul. It's a hard journey, but I've managed to pick up the pace quite considerably. I was wading through treacle, now I'm in a carriage pulled by a lame donkey. One day I'll be flying through it First Class. But it's nothing more than a process with an end point.

And finally there's this whole sex and gender disconnect thing.  Personally it is a thing; and this is what I think about it. As something of a not very well-read difference feminist, these are just my ideas.

Firstly sex is who we are. It is represented, but not defined by, arrangements of sexual characteristics. My own view is that woman (as separate from female) means having or wanting a vagina, having or wanting feminine features, having or wanting breasts, the list goes on. I know this is old fashioned  And also in some cases may sound a little politically incorrect or unaccepting or socially intrusive? I don't know - as a standard narrative transsexual I do sometimes feel like I'm a tacky relic from the past. One that isn't in tune, fully, and perhaps not that nice. Like, if gender queer people are electric Toyota's then I'll be a smoke coughing vintage Cadillac. But I was born this way!! Soz 

With that in mind, my mental sex doesn't match my physical sex and I want it changed as soon as possible. Yesterday would have been nice but there's always tomorrow lol!!!

That said, for me, gender is little more than a set of social constructs by which we act out our sex roles. Female is something that has, in the past, been defined by the patriarchy in order to keep us in the submissive position as nurturers and carers and sex objects and gentle things.  There's nothing wrong with fitting in to that, except I believe there's no reason to ascribe a lower status to what we call female. And also that it doesn't matter the sex of the person doing it?

I think the two things can exist happily alongside each other, but there is a difference between sex and gender. I'm transgender, in effect, now in that I'm playing a female role in society which causes me to be recognised as a woman. I feel like one, but I am not one yet. You might argue that I am? But I am not there enough yet to satisfy me  And that's the important part.

Also, almost forgot to mention, passing is good for your friends  It's important for me that they don't get any rubbish by association, and passing does really help to stop that. And it can only get better with time!!

Thanks for reading if you made it to the end 

Missy xx

I don't care very much about passing.

What does bother me is how looking "ambiguous" will impact things like my ability to get jobs, daily interactions and how tedious they can be if you constantly have to answer questions about your gender, other people projecting their expectations of your transition onto you, and so on. Unwanted and unpleasant attention, etc.

Most of these can effectively be avoided just by 'looking the part'. So while I don't care how others feel about my appearance or gender, it would be nice if I just didn't have to deal with all the fallout from not passing. For that reason I'll make some kind of effort to pass. But I sure won't be losing sleep if I don't.

I love your post. It is very deep, inspirational and denotes a great strength of character. You go go girl!!

Quote from: SimplyThea on January 23, 2016, 10:10:03 PM
But then I began reading a lot of philosophy and researching quantum physics and wrapping my brain around concepts which are almost too complex for the human mind to understand and I realized that in the grand scheme of things nothing that myself or anyone else does really matters.

It is not like a quantum jump. At first, you may slightly change your appearance to a 'metrosexual' looking. This does require so much money or effort. Just wearing simple fashion accessories will make significant changes. If you can enjoy it as your life style, then move to the next step like 'androgynous' and 'queer' looking. You can not look like a woman within a day.

Yes. Hairstyle is the most critical. Take care of your hair health, although the genetics plays a role, too.

It is a long journey.

barbie~~

Passing isn't the most important thing to me but have always been able to dress well (mom taught me). I know what looks good on me. I do experiment at times to add some variety. I've been clocked by people and have been complimented. Been hit on a few times also. Just being out and living life is my biggest thrill.

In my view (which of course is correct because it's mine! ), there's passing and there's passing.

The minimum is for your presentation to get people (strangers at least) to realize you want to be treated as your transitioned-to gender.  I call that "first-degree passing."

The next is to pass well enough that most people accept you at your transitioned-to-gender, even though they can tell you're trans.  I call that "second-degree" passing.

The next is to pass well enough that people can't tell you're trans unless someone tells them.  I'd call that "third-degree" passing.

Anyway, my hope is to reach "second-degree."  I don't mind people knowing I'm trans, as long as they don't treat me as a "man in a dress."  Besides, since I'm not planning to go witness-protection style stealth, people are going to know no matter what I look like.

Quote from: Asche on January 24, 2016, 04:29:46 PM
The minimum is for your presentation to get people (strangers at least) to realize you want to be treated as your transitioned-to gender.  I call that "first-degree passing."

The next is to pass well enough that most people accept you at your transitioned-to-gender, even though they can tell you're trans.  I call that "second-degree" passing.

The next is to pass well enough that people can't tell you're trans unless someone tells them.  I'd call that "third-degree" passing.

I really like reading others thoughts on this because the word "passing" is so ubiquitous, yet it has different meanings to different people.  Ex: Tom Brady is the best passer in the world, stat-wise.  Seriously tho, I suppose we agree to disagree about your particular degrees of passing (1&2 are still being read which = no pass), but it's fun to hear others opinions of what constitutes "passing" !

Quote from: Asche on January 24, 2016, 04:29:46 PM
In my view (which of course is correct because it's mine! ), there's passing and there's passing.

The minimum is for your presentation to get people (strangers at least) to realize you want to be treated as your transitioned-to gender.  I call that "first-degree passing."

The next is to pass well enough that most people accept you at your transitioned-to-gender, even though they can tell you're trans.  I call that "second-degree" passing.

The next is to pass well enough that people can't tell you're trans unless someone tells them.  I'd call that "third-degree" passing.

Anyway, my hope is to reach "second-degree."  I don't mind people knowing I'm trans, as long as they don't treat me as a "man in a dress."  Besides, since I'm not planning to go witness-protection style stealth, people are going to know no matter what I look like.

I really like this way of thinking about it. I'm someone who cares a lot about passing, but this has been helpful to really help me spell out why I do. I think I'd be okay with passing 2 as you describe it (though would still prefer passing 3 ideally). But I think passing 2 would satisfy me because it would seem to eliminate the dysphoria coming from socially being perceived as male.

Quote from: Asche on January 24, 2016, 04:29:46 PM
In my view (which of course is correct because it's mine! ), there's passing and there's passing.

The minimum is for your presentation to get people (strangers at least) to realize you want to be treated as your transitioned-to gender.  I call that "first-degree passing."

The next is to pass well enough that most people accept you at your transitioned-to-gender, even though they can tell you're trans.  I call that "second-degree" passing.

The next is to pass well enough that people can't tell you're trans unless someone tells them.  I'd call that "third-degree" passing.

Anyway, my hope is to reach "second-degree."  I don't mind people knowing I'm trans, as long as they don't treat me as a "man in a dress."  Besides, since I'm not planning to go witness-protection style stealth, people are going to know no matter what I look like.

Asche I will be happy with this

"The next is to pass well enough that most people accept you at your transitioned-to-gender, even though they can tell you're trans.  I call that "second-degree" passing."

Passing for me in the first instance is when I can stand in a mirror and genuinely like what I see...if I feel good then I am more confident and relaxed. If much further down the track people didn't recognize me as Trans then that could be considered "Passing" but at my age(then) it would more likely be politeness

Elizabeth K

"Passing" means people don't suspect you're trans.

The rest of stuff is fine, but passing means a specific thing.

If you are happy with people knowing you're trans, then that is all that matters.

 I am at stage 2 on the "Asche scale" at work, elsewhere I think I am at 1.5 . The women where I work treat me like just one of the girls, some of the guys as well. I transitioned openly at work and have known some of these people for years.

Pre-T and pre surgery if i "pass" i.e. someone gets confused as to why i'm in the ladies' room or calls me 'dude' it's pretty affirming. it makes me think my transition will actually work, in that i'll be able to be the person i want to be for me.

also you can't ignore the safety elements of passing. it's not always safe to not pass. the focus on the issue should be addressing the violence of society towards NGC people and not our own vanity or w/e

Well, if having friends matter to you at all, then you got more than me. My number of friends are 0. But I'm glad that some trans people really are not alone. Yes, I am not the only one who is trans but I am the only trans person I know of personally which means I am alone in that regard.

Anyways, Thea, I think you are so on the right track by expressing yourself. You don't need all those procedures done to do that. Just hang around me for 2 minutes and you'd know that for a fact!

You go girl, for making this realization after 22 years of hard living. You deserve this!

Quote from: Peep on January 25, 2016, 07:07:51 AM
also you can't ignore the safety elements of passing. it's not always safe to not pass. the focus on the issue should be addressing the violence of society towards NGC people and not our own vanity or w/e

I will admit that the safety element does concern me sometimes, but I also feel like I can't live in fear of what other people might do. I know I could be putting myself at a higher risk by not passing, but at the same time that risk seems justified when it clears away so much depression and sadness which pervaded my life before. I do agree though that there needs to be a focus on addressing the violence in society towards trans people and other minority groups. I live in Pennsylvania and there is currently no state law here that includes LGBT individuals in the list of people who can be targets of hate crimes which is troubling, but I'm not going to wait on social change to make myself a happier person.