Quote from: AudreyMichelle on August 19, 2015, 11:45:12 PM
I don't necessarily disagree. But what about objective truth and God being the ultimate source of love and happiness? Is it a slap in the face to God to say that I need to live life as a woman to be happy?

what i was saying is, who you are, is who you are, and god loves you for who you are and wants you to be happy.

somtims we are born into situations that we are made unhappy by other humans, one such thing is the notion that all men have to conform to a spacific design, and all woman have to do like wise. its these notions that cause us pain. because this is a temporal notion, not a spiritual one.

each and everyone of us IS different, and god knows this. but as unique as we are, so is our ability to be happy and unhappy. to like and not like.

our agency is a gift from god. and it is not acting upon that agency "save it interfrearing with the agancy of another" that is an afront to god.

the temporal idea of fearness is that every body has fruit and eats an apple.
but the spiritual fearness is, everybody eats their favourite food.
eg, temporal fairness is, we all eat the same thing in the same amouts, because divergence from this is unfair.
but spiritual fairness is, we all feel the same about what we eat because that is fair.

so if having long hair would make you happy, on ac->-bleeped-<- that short hair being a social exspectation and not your own choice makes you misserable. then god wants you to have long hair.


so no, you should not be a woman or a man, you should be yourself.


Transition for me is not about, being  a woman or a man, it is about me being me.
I like long hair so i have long hair
I like these clothes so these are what i chose to wear.

And each and every choice i make is with spiritual benifit in mind.
e,g if having a penis didnt cause me as much distress as it does, i wouldnt go for surgery. It is only due to an almost certian self castration that would lead to a slow bleeding spiritual death and vast amounts or sadness amongst my family, As to why this is even somthing I am considering.

Quote from: AudreyMichelle on August 19, 2015, 11:28:24 PM
Hi, everyone. I just recently decided that I need to deal with the fact that I'm trans. I'm also a Christian. I have a real hard time reconciling these two especially when I feel like I'm abandoning who God created me to be. Can any of you share any words of wisdom on what it's like to come to terms with the fact you are trans as a Christian?

Its a tough one .i had the same battle but came to the realization that being trans is who i am as a person. :-)

Quote from: Eva Marie on August 20, 2015, 12:58:38 AM
Audrey-

Being trans and being a follower of Christ are NOT mutually exclusive. There are many Christians in the transgender community.

Being transgender has its roots in our biology - it's who and what we were made of, by the Creator himself. He knows us very well because he made us for His purpose. We had absolutely no "choice" in the matter; its biological - as evidenced by transgender people experiencing a complete mental turnaround when given the hormones that correspond to their perceived gender identity.

To further illustrate my point - consider the eunuch which is as close to transgender as the bible gets - Matthew 19:12 tells us that eunuchs can be born that way, or can be made eunuchs by others (SRS?), and there are those that choose to live like eunuchs. In Isaiah 56 4:5 we are told that eunuchs receive a great reward in heaven when they have been faithful followers of Christ.

If the eunuch is given such obvious approval and high regard by God as evidenced by scripture - why should transgender people be any different?

The people that are condemning you on a biblical basis have a flawed understanding of scripture. There is entirely too much biblical judgment and cherry picking of verses going around and not enough love and compassion as Jesus taught.

I really believe that if Jesus showed up for church services these days a lot of churches would kick him out because he doesn't fit into their theology or culture.

Sent from my ME172V using Tapatalk

My wife does in fact know and we do very much view each other as partners. It makes me think about inviting her in to helping me figure out the answer to my questions rather continue to try to protect her as I usually do.
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I think that is very important. I have come to value the team aspect working with my wife. Additionally, there is a saying that when a person transitions, the family does too(or something similar to that paraphrase). It is not only helpful but unfair to her to leave her out of the decision. Remembering that sometimes decisions or agreements are to not agree...

Good luck. Have a good week end if you can.

With warmth,

Joanna

Thanks, Joanna. Your advice really helps. I guess in the end, my question was less about me and god directly but more about how to deal with some of the most difficult aspects of this (#1 being my marriage) in a way that seems to me to be honoring to god. I think bringing my wife alongside me more is definitely the best way to do that.

I realize I'm late to the party here.

I'm Christian.

I grew up Evangelical Free. Later I was affiliated with the Bible Students.

I was married.

I have a daughter.

I will not for a minute suggest that there are easy or obvious answers for you.

Some of us can live as the sex assigned at birth; some of us can survive that way; some of us cannot continue that way. I cannot say how it is for you.

The first step for me was coming out to my wife. We talked and prayed. Ultimately, we separated, divorced. I transitioned. Your experience may be different.

Since my transition, I met someone and fell in love. We have been together 26 years, and we're married. We joined the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches (MCC) and later the United Church of Christ (UCC). I completed seminary and was approved for ordination pending call in 2013. Again, your experience will probably be different in some ways.

Regarding who you feel you are inside, and your relationship with God, I suggest this exercise:

Take your innermost self, your most honest self, to God in prayer. With complete vulnerability and honesty, approach the Creator and see how that feels. I suspect you will find a loving presence who has always known you, who knows you better than you know yourself, who is ready to embrace your truest expression of self.

Whether that will lead to transition or not, only you and God will know.

Blessings on your journey, wherever it leads you.

Quote from: cindik on August 22, 2015, 09:09:27 AM
Take your innermost self, your most honest self, to God in prayer. With complete vulnerability and honesty, approach the Creator and see how that feels. I suspect you will find a loving presence who has always known you, who knows you better than you know yourself, who is ready to embrace your truest expression of self.

Thanks, cindik! I think this is wonderful advice that I need to practice more often even outside of my gender issues.

The way I as a devout Christian was able to come to terms with being Trans was the fact that I believe that God puts on this planet for a specific reason, and while we have full and complete free will, he still gives us challenges to hurdle through in our road to getting ultimate happiness in the mortal world and eventual happiness in the afterlife with him and Jesus; as happiness is something I believe that God guides us to work to earn. For someone like me, the challenge he gave me was creating me spiritually and mentally as a woman but sticking me in a male body, I believe God did this to test me, to test my strength and resolve, whether I could overcome the depression and hatred to work to gain the happiness I need and want through becoming my true self - by becoming the woman I am mentally and spiritually.

This is how I came to terms with it, and God's love and grace and my faith as a whole as helped me come to terms with it all and guides me through life as a whole.

Quote from: Eva Marie on August 20, 2015, 12:58:38 AM
Audrey-

Being trans and being a follower of Christ are NOT mutually exclusive. There are many Christians in the transgender community.

Being transgender has its roots in our biology - it's who and what we were made of, by the Creator himself. He knows us very well because he made us for His purpose. We had absolutely no "choice" in the matter; its biological - as evidenced by transgender people experiencing a complete mental turnaround when given the hormones that correspond to their perceived gender identity.

To further illustrate my point - consider the eunuch which is as close to transgender as the bible gets - Matthew 19:12 tells us that eunuchs can be born that way, or can be made eunuchs by others (SRS?), and there are those that choose to live like eunuchs. In Isaiah 56 4:5 we are told that eunuchs receive a great reward in heaven when they have been faithful followers of Christ.

If the eunuch is given such obvious approval and high regard by God as evidenced by scripture - why should transgender people be any different?

The people that are condemning you on a biblical basis have a flawed understanding of scripture. There is entirely too much biblical judgment and cherry picking of verses going around and not enough love and compassion as Jesus taught.

I really believe that if Jesus showed up for church services these days a lot of churches would kick him out because he doesn't fit into their theology or culture.

So wonderfully put  This put a smile on my face 

So, for those who are Christian, do you feel that in the bible context, to be Eunuch exclusively means to be Trans?  Or would Eunuch mean a cis-man chooses to loose his testicles to serve God totally without the libido interfering? Its a sharp contrast to the OT where Deuteronomy 23:1 states that "No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may participate in the assembly of the LORD"

I however have faith and would love to be 100% clear that In all literalness, Christ even satisfied this, to a level of detail that allows for us girls to live happily with the Lord. I know that Christ's sacrifice of His sinless life was a propitiation for our sins, so do you feel that EVERYTHING in the OT is satisfied? I've been taught that still the 10 Commandments still hold shape. I know I sound legalistic... but I'm so afraid. I should know better... how much I know of the Faith... but sometimes I just loose confidence.

Then there is the topic of sexuality... I only prefer the company of women, so as someone born XY, am I covered if I lie with a woman as a woman? Or to avoid abhorrent homosexual sin as the bible says, should we all remain abstinent like the Eunuch?

A good article on this topic:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mercynotsacrifice/2012/05/21/why-does-god-make-eunuchs-matthew-1912/

I'm caveating this to say I am no longer Christian.  However, I used to be a very well versed one and studied in a seminary for a while.

I think the eunuch verse has nothing to do with being trans.  In the early church there were those that castrated themselves but that was solely to remove sexual feelings and avoid temptation.

There were trans people in that era and if the Bible writers had wished to put them in a positive context they could have done that. 


Sapere Aude

Quote from: Deborah on January 23, 2016, 01:34:44 PM
I'm caveating this to say I am no longer Christian.  However, I used to be a very well versed one and studied in a seminary for a while.
Sapere Aude

Thanks for your comments I'm sure that you know if you have accepted Christ in your life, God won't let you go. Unless you make multiple attempts to grieve the Holy Spirit. I'm sure you also know that grieving the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin.

May I ask what makes you feel no longer Christian? I feel bad to hear you say that.

Well,  I have written why before but the short version is that after 40 years of praying for either a mind or body cure for being trans and receiving no reply other than stone cold silence I gave up.   And it doesn't matter to the Christians how hard I studied or prayed.  To them I am a hell bound reprobate.  So it just didn't seem worth my time and effort  to maintain a charade any longer.

I still believe in God but not in the Christian version.  I have even found a way to include Christ but it's an entirely heretical way.


Sapere Aude

Well rest assured that people who judge you have already judged themselves. I pity them to be honest. They know not what they do. And if they do, they have evil in their hearts.

Some people who say they are Christian may take a dogmatic or even legalistic approach. I feel bad for them for if they are legalistic to others here on earth, they should expect the same when they meet their maker. Its a pity really. I wish they'd change their tune.

I believe that all people of earth are inherently fallen and depraved. We by default err to sin. Its easy and sometimes pleasurable to do. But its not part of God's will for us. Jesus payed for it all. I will always sin until my body expires. Until that I will try to live, glorifying God through Christ. Its so hard in this world though I know.

Bishop Gene Robinson, the first gay Episcopal Bishop wrote a well reasoned, theologically sound 47 page paper on why transgender people should be accepted into all communities of faith.  You can find it online but I have it downloaded and if anyone would like a copy, I'll send it to you.

I found it online here https://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/15125721/TransFaith-report.pdf

I'm going to read it.


Sapere Aude

Quote from: AudreyMichelle on August 19, 2015, 11:28:24 PM
Hi, everyone. I just recently decided that I need to deal with the fact that I'm trans. I'm also a Christian. I have a real hard time reconciling these two especially when I feel like I'm abandoning who God created me to be. Can any of you share any words of wisdom on what it's like to come to terms with the fact you are trans as a Christian?

I have the same feelings. I find comfort in constantly seeking acceptance from Christ by praying "Forgive me if I've sinned Heavenly Father, but I want to be your baby boy, not your baby daughter. Then I feel indecisive and feel like God will guide me down the right path and leave it up to him whether I become a man on the outside. I sometimes feel like he's given me a challenge or test in life and rely on him for comfort and direction."

So I fantasize about being a man often, and pray for answers to whether I should alter my body in the future or not. I feel inferior as a woman and have been told I'm sexist against other women and myself. I resent the female roles in the bible and can't feel like they apply to me because when I try to do traditional woman things I feel out of place and awkward. I have much empathy for women after living as one I think their lives are harder and they gain strength from starting out weaker. I have never been good at submitting to anyone.

If I have SRS and become male I will also be a homosexual. I personally suspect that many holy men throughout time have been homosexual whether celebate or not. I am certain I will never feel any emotional connection through sex unless its AS a man with a man I'm close to. I have loved men, but then it died because they wanted to treat me like a normal girlfriend or wife and it upsets me that they aren't treating me like respected male comrade or a lover.

The sad thing is my family have said, "but God made you such a delicate pretty girl". That makes me feel guilt.

Regardless I know that everyone alive on Earth is a sinner by some means, and I believe all who ask for forgiveness and cherish Jesus Christ's love, pray, and give all they can to others will forever be like a child safe in his arms.

Quote from: Eva Marie on August 20, 2015, 12:58:38 AM
Audrey-

Being trans and being a follower of Christ are NOT mutually exclusive. There are many Christians in the transgender community.

Being transgender has its roots in our biology - it's who and what we were made of, by the Creator himself. He knows us very well because he made us for His purpose. We had absolutely no "choice" in the matter; its biological - as evidenced by transgender people experiencing a complete mental turnaround when given the hormones that correspond to their perceived gender identity.

To further illustrate my point - consider the eunuch which is as close to transgender as the bible gets - Matthew 19:12 tells us that eunuchs can be born that way, or can be made eunuchs by others (SRS?), and there are those that choose to live like eunuchs. In Isaiah 56 4:5 we are told that eunuchs receive a great reward in heaven when they have been faithful followers of Christ.

If the eunuch is given such obvious approval and high regard by God as evidenced by scripture - why should transgender people be any different?

The people that are condemning you on a biblical basis have a flawed understanding of scripture. There is entirely too much biblical judgment and cherry picking of verses going around and not enough love and compassion as Jesus taught.

I really believe that if Jesus showed up for church services these days a lot of churches would kick him out because he doesn't fit into their theology or culture.

This is a wonderful post. God bless you!

Quote from: Joanna50 on August 20, 2015, 09:30:27 AM
Stepping outside the vacuum is hard though. Is transition selfish and unloving to my wife? Would God rather me sacrifice myself for her sake when I know that my decision to physically become a woman would be devastating to her? The same goes for my family. Or, is the end game of devastation inevitable and would it be more loving to just do it now?

Ah, yes. I know this one. Not the answer mind you but the question. I of course cannot answer for you. I am not sure that I have an answer for me yet but if you don't mind a few bits of sharing experience and maybe an additional thought:

I have asked myself if I shouldn't sacrifice for my wife and children.  I think one additional question I don't remember is if your wife knows. If so, how much do you see your marriage as a partnership. If so, what does she think? I am going to do a little bio to clarify why I asked that. Anyone who has read my posts may find some of this redundant, sorry.

I am 50 and was deep in denial or clueless till last January. I have been depressive, dark, moody, angry. My wife has been suggesting I try therapy for a few years. I finally agreed. I was an on again off again closeted cross dresser. I went to be "cured" and realized I did not fit the typical profile of a cross dresser. I did a lot of research, internal thought, recollection, self discovery and yes soul searching. So 3 months later I came out to my wife of 25 years as MTF.  A month or two ago when I spoke to my wife and said I thought I was being unfair to her and should stop. She then weighed in on her side. She explained that it isn't fair but little is. She said that she has been amazed at how different and positive I have been since coming out to her and admitting to myself.  Happier, getting over depression and rage much faster and not being bogged down in the darkness I have carried with me for years. She has seen the irony of the situation and knows I have seen it. That the situation and treatment of it's symptoms may make her feel she can no longer stay with me; however that treatment is helping me be a better,nicer, more fun person to be with... Playing it by ear. I am pre-HRT(just as a reference). She also said that she was very worried about where I would be by next year if I had not made this break through. She said that she did not know how far I needed to go but as part of the two in the couple she is not about to see me back slide to where I was.

I have not spoken to my children yet. I expect that will be a little awkward but I think they will be fine. Yes the rest of the family may be a challenge, but I have always been a challenge to them and they to me.

I am sorry if I am making this about me. I am just trying to share my experience, not for comparison, but to spark thoughts or questions. At this point, I am in therapy, starting facial electrolysis and scheduling my first endo appointment hopefully to try low dosage (maybe with blockers). Taking baby steps slowly, then checking back in with my wife at each step.

We are Presbyterians. She was an elder, I have been a deacon and nearly did seminary as well. Just as a how my experience fits into your original topic.

Long post for a short question. So sorry.

Good luck.

With warmth,

Joanna

This was a nice story to hear. Can you estimate what your church will think of your SRS?

Quote from: Metanoia on August 20, 2015, 03:02:23 PM
Just to add my two cents in this...

There are a handful of out Trans* Christian clergy out there... I'm not out yet, but non-ordained clergy.... I've got at least a year to be ordained yet...

Which is to say what everyone else is saying. Being Trans* and Christian is not impossible. It makes for fun conversations though... When I was a young teenager, I thought Deuteronomy 23:1 was hilarious because it said penis and balls.... (In some translations such as NRSV)....

Now it's not so funny...

How many people know about transgender clergy? May I ask your denomination and your gender identity, please?

i really hope this has been brought up already, but the second time (yes, SECOND) the bible mentions woman being brought into the world, it is when eve is being created from adam's rib, which, genetically speaking, would make her biologically male, so really, god created the heavens and the earth, and two dudes, one who looked like a chick, and everyone born since is actually born xy male with female charactaristics that change upon puberty.

scientifically, the above argument is flawed logically on either side of the argument of the biblical accuracy of the creation myth. perhaps the bible is telling the truth and observational evidence is not to be trusted, or it could be that god doesn't exists in the way you think it does. it could even be that an omnipotent deity should not have gender at all, and so all forms of manifestation in this realm are valid under that pretext.

*shrug*  being trans and believing in a creator that has capacity to hate what they create may be difficult to cause to peacefully coexist, but thankfully only one can be directly observed to be true, and if god dont like it, they shouldve thought about that before they made trans people.

Quote from: Phek on February 27, 2016, 01:27:53 AM
i really hope this has been brought up already, but the second time (yes, SECOND) the bible mentions woman being brought into the world, it is when eve is being created from adam's rib, which, genetically speaking, would make her biologically male, so really, god created the heavens and the earth, and two dudes, one who looked like a chick, and everyone born since is actually born xy male with female charactaristics that change upon puberty.

scientifically, the above argument is flawed logically on either side of the argument of the biblical accuracy of the creation myth. perhaps the bible is telling the truth and observational evidence is not to be trusted, or it could be that god doesn't exists in the way you think it does. it could even be that an omnipotent deity should not have gender at all, and so all forms of manifestation in this realm are valid under that pretext.

*shrug*  being trans and believing in a creator that has capacity to hate what they create may be difficult to cause to peacefully coexist, but thankfully only one can be directly observed to be true, and if god dont like it, they shouldve thought about that before they made trans people.

I struggled much of my life with hating God and resenting the roles and lives of women and rejected my womanhood until I grew up and realized the others are comfortable with women's roles and who they are and I'm one of the few with that problem. I WAS more sexist against women than most men. I will always have empathy and respect for women though and what they go through, but I can't stand to live that way.

Recently accepting Jesus and loving him is helping me to deal with my dysphoria.