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Meta: Susan Stanton's lonely transformation

Started by Natasha, December 30, 2007, 10:49:48 AM

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Annie Social

Quote from: genovais on January 02, 2008, 12:55:51 PMShe was in a rare position; in most cases, one cannot prove that it was because one was trans that one was fired/not hired.  She clearly had a good lawsuit and could have made a major contribution to the community.
Actually, the odds of her winning a lawsuit were considered iffy, even by her own attorneys. Florida is a right-to-work state, and her contract included a clause that stated that she served at the pleasure of the city commission. In addition, she was very hopeful of being hired as a city manager somewhere else, and saw a lawsuit against the city as something that would make any municipality much less likely to hire her.
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nickie

Ahem...well...Susan has not been rejected by the Trans community here. She rejected us. She makes me think that she is secretly working for the religious right. I did admire her decision not to sue the City for firing her. The Commission was set upon by a LOUD and angry mob, before the Trans community, local sympathetic clergy, the NCLR or Equality Florida could step in. To further prove that she is not in step with her community, when asked to speak at the local Transgender Day of Remembrance Service, all she talked about was herself...much to the consternation of some of the Trans people in attendance. How much of this came from being self centered vs. came from a lack of knowledge about what the ceremony is for?
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nickie

Quote from: Kate on December 31, 2007, 10:59:28 AMI'm not a fan of an inclusive-ENDA, but I was surprised to hear HER say that.
What do you mean by this?
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LostInTime

She (Stanton) sounds like the next big spokesperson for HRC.
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Annie Social

Quote from: SusanK on January 02, 2008, 09:06:19 AM...which we still have to remember, she wasn't outed, she came out all by herself.
That's not entirely true. She had come out to a few people, in advance of implementing a full transition plan, and apparently one of them outed her to the St. Petersburg Times. She was then contacted by the Times, informed that they were going to run the story, and asked for her response.
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Kate

Quote from: nickie on January 02, 2008, 02:58:07 PM
Quote from: Kate on December 31, 2007, 10:59:28 AMI'm not a fan of an inclusive-ENDA, but I was surprised to hear HER say that.
What do you mean by this?

A discussion that usually ends up with hurt feelings...

But I go back-and-forth between wanting protections for everyone, yet not necessarily thinking TSs should be included under the GLB banner since it makes it seem like our motivations are sexually (as a verb) driven.

But since reading Susan's latest quotes and seeing the arrogance in them, I'm seeing that arrogance in myself too. Seems I got lucky, and haven't had any problems with discrimination, so it's really easy for me to sit here and say I don't need ENDA or the GLB community.

But considering everything that happened to her, you'd think she'd be on the front lines of the inclusive-ENDA fight. And yet she gave up on it, and pushed herself away from "those people" for whatever reason.

I dunno, ever since posting some mean things about this on another thread, I've been trying to figure myself out too. I don't like myself being like that/this, and don't want to be that kind of person. Apparently I still have some inner issues to figure out...

~Kate~
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NicholeW.

Quote from: nickie on January 02, 2008, 02:46:24 PM
Ahem...well...Susan has not been rejected by the Trans community here. She rejected us. ... To further prove that she is not in step with her community, when asked to speak at the local Transgender Day of Remembrance Service, all she talked about was herself...much to the consternation of some of the Trans people in attendance. How much of this came from being self centered vs. came from a lack of knowledge about what the ceremony is for?

Huh? Now how could anyone be so blind as not to know what THAT is all about? Does she really think that her firing is on a par with people who have bled out in hospitals and been murdered, raped repeatedly and otherwise tortured?

Someone said earlier they thought that maybe she thought it was all a matter of changing her name and then moving right along as if she were still Steve. ... maybe?

Quote from: LostInTime on January 02, 2008, 03:08:24 PM
She (Stanton) sounds like the next big spokesperson for HRC.

Damn, you ARE good, LIT. Perfect.

N~
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tekla

I would think that the suit was iffy too.  And she was correct that any legal action on her part would greatly limit her future job choices.  (And that's not just a management deal, for many companies its an insurance issue also).  And they gave her a fat 'golden parachute' - that's the bird in the hand that is worth more than two in the bush deal.  And, lacking any sort of strong trans protection act, an 'at will' contract in a 'right to (no) work' state is almost always going to be upheld in court, much less an 'at the pleasure of' clause.  She signed that contract, she can't do much about that.  And, certainly a city manager would be knowledgeable as to the exact legal ramifications of such language in a contract.  Matter of fact, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that she had her senior executive level staff sign off on similar language when they were hired.  (People who work at top jobs in the White House are asked - often, as the first thing they do - to write a letter of resignation with a blank date, just to re-enforce that 'at the pleasure of' language.  i.e. "your done here as soon as I fill in today's date.)

In the DoR speech, like some of her other talks, she does demonstrate a failure of the first rule of public speaking  - know who you are talking to and why. Had she gone in and said "I know this is not going to be popular, but its what I feel I must say.." (in which case she would not be surprised that she got 'booed' but would have not only expected it, but would have planned for it) she would have had my upmost respect and admiration even if I disagreed with 105% of what she said.  I'm very fond of people who tell the truth as they know it, even if they are wrong.  Heck, I've been there.

I wish she would have reached out and found me a few years ago when I could have at least made suggestions in the direction of 'things she might want to read, because she might want to know what others have been through - at the very least."  I could have pointed her in any number of directions that might have at least made her understand something a bit different than what she thought.  I've been helped Big-Time throughout the years by all the drag-queens, old queens, TS/CD/TG, GG, andro, gay, lesbian, who knows and whatevers, and all-the-others too, I've met.  But to get that acceptance that leads to insight, analysis, information or even true knowledge, you have to give it first in common practice.  You have to join in, be a part, participate, 'be here now,' and be on their level, in their space, and not expect them to move to yours.  This I know. 

And I'm not 'booing' her, though had she made some of those statements in front of me, I would have.  At a public event - & giving a speech is a public event in a democratic and pluralistic nation - the audience is entitled to whatever response they feel is correct, or feel moved to express.  And I'm not about to give up my right to tell a public speaker what I think of their views, no matter who I am, no matter what they are.  Any good public speaker can at least defend their positions I would think (so would Plato).

I'm sure she was not accustomed to anyone ever contradicting her in any manner, as is per standard practice when dealing with your boss who has control over your job, your pay, your advancement, and your career.  I'm not the only person who has ever been in an environment where the boss man or boss lady comes in and chews everyone out and does that "Yadda, Yadda, Yadda" deal where everyone is going "Yes boss, no boss, sure thing boss" only to call them some very naughty names and suggest some pretty vile, if not anatomically impossible acts, the instant they leave the room.  We have ALL been there.

Though its taught in every B-School and management class she seemed to forget that 'people respect the position not the personality." (that's really important here, so I put it in bold)  It never dawned on her that all those people who knew her and were nice, well when you control jobs, salary, advancement, 'plum assignments,' and $$$contracts$$$$ that can be $AWESOMELY$ ($fantastically$ - civic contracts are often absurd, as anyone who has been involved with the problem of government costs knows) lucrative$$$$$ that people might be being nice to you because they're just looking out for number one, and number one ain't you?

And, if your looking for some sympathy here in the USA, in 2007, don't cry at me because your not making $140K and can't keep up that standard of living.

(And, Kate, these things were also bothering me when I said, 'gee, I would not really want to know her."  But I say again, I don't reject people in real life.  Had I met her, if I met her, I would/will be very gracious as such is my nature.  Still, I tend to have a lot more sympathy for people who just got the short end of the stick, and tried to work that, then people who made choices without thinking them through or investigating (like in a google age that is very hard either) what is possible given that choice.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Natasha

Susan Stanton Doesn't Support Trans Rights?

http://www.queerty.com/susan-stanton-doesnt-support-trans-rights-20080102/
01/02/2008

We're truly disturbed. Susan Stanton, the former Largo, Florida city manager who left her job after transitioning from male to female, made some comments recently that make us question our unwavering support for her decision.

>i'm sorry but i think that people are picking on her ::)<
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tekla

That's not entirely true. She had come out to a few people, in advance of implementing a full transition plan, and apparently one of them outed her to the St. Petersburg Times. She was then contacted by the Times, informed that they were going to run the story, and asked for her response.

Its seems to be someone who worked under her.  No matter if it was revenge for a bad job evalu, or a chance of promotion, that office politics, and not my business.  If you work in a very public - and, in theory at least, nothing is supposed to be more public than government, local government at that, setting, then your life is (and should be) a very public matter.   
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Joyce

Quote from: tekla on January 02, 2008, 05:52:11 PM
If you work in a very public - and, in theory at least, nothing is supposed to be more public than government, local government at that, setting, then your life is (and should be) a very public matter.   

As someone who works in a very public setting as a professor employed by the State of Texas, I would certainly hope that your blanket proclamation is not quite so sweeping as it sounds.  You surely don't mean that every city employee, right down to the dog-catcher, may have his or her private life put on the cover of the city paper just because they draw their paycheck from the local government, do you?  The 'very' in 'very public' can be used to catch just about anyone, from my postal carrier (I see him every single day, as does everyone in the neighborhood) to my kids' elementary school teachers (very visible).
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tekla

A) so what?  Its her decision, and if she wants to change it, its her right.  The most basic human right of all is the right change your mind.

B)You are fair game when you let a camara crew from a news network make you out to be a "Big Time Trans Posterchild" (and take money for it) when none of the T-people up to that point were deamed passible enough, pretty enough, or white enough to fill their newscasts.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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HelenW

It struck me today that she might be taking a more conservative stance in her public utterances in order to make her finding a job easier.  It could be that the people who decide on those things, like whom to hire to run a city, are afraid to hire a "GLBT activist" so she's saying those things to distance herself from the community.

Just a thought . . .

hugs & smiles
Emelye
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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SusanK

Quote from: Annie Social on January 02, 2008, 03:09:35 PM
That's not entirely true. She had come out to a few people, in advance of implementing a full transition plan, and apparently one of them outed her to the St. Petersburg Times. She was then contacted by the Times, informed that they were going to run the story, and asked for her response.

That's true, but she also walked into the city council meeting in full dress and full public view to officially announce her intent to everyone. And if the media was told in advance, it's likely some of them would have been there anyway, maybe just not bigger market media, along with the normal public crowd that attends these meetings. But considering the extreme change it would make, she should have known all of her staff would not keep it secret.

I'm not sure she had any choice if she wanted to come out. She followed the best plan she could. I don't have a problem with that and think she didn't deserve to be fired, and  she makes a good example for ENDA. It's what's she done and said afterward that I have criticism about, especially consider her income including a year's severance pay, she should have gone quiet while she sorted things out in her new life.

I wonder had she done that, she might have had a good chance with her resume to find another job as a city manager (she was in the final group for one?). But going so public, she pretty much flushed her old career down the toliet. Who's going to hire a very public city manger who will be in a CNN documentary.

And sadly from what I've read elsewhere she had a lot of support and advice from quite a few media-experienced transwomen, and she choose not to heed let alone follow it. So where was her head? I hope she gets things together, but she's not off to a good start.

--Susan--
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tekla

A) Surely I did not equate a professor at a state college or university with a dogcatcher?  I've been away from academia long enough not to bend reality that far.  Would you not, my professor, refer to that as a "reducto ad absurdum" if one of your little ones gave it to you?  Likewise, a city manager, far above a poor professor, stranded in their garret with only the bicycle from the Goodwill to transport you back and fourth, is at a slightly higher rank than dogcatcher (unless that dogcatcher makes $140K per year, in which case, hey!!! I'm really, really good with dogs.) 

B), a professor at a state institution is not drawing his paycheck from a local government.

C) Wow?  Where have you been?  Do you know that its a lot harder to get into an K-8 teaching job - particularly as a male - than ANY higher education job?  Fewer background checks for sure. And yeah, for the record, I do want to know what kind of people are teaching my kids, and I do think I have some say in that too as a parent.  Bet you think the same thing.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Keira


I don't think she'll get a similar job anywhere anytime soon no matter what she says, unless she goes in very liberal northern california or somewhere else like that. Most places don't want that kind of spotlight; its something she hasn't quite understood I think.

Its not her political views which causes her problems, but her very existence on earth. That's why being stealth is not such a bad idea in my view, though in her case, it would be very hard to do unless the national media let go of her and she changes her name or something.
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tekla

Of course had she been the city manager for Larkspur, or San Mateo, or Pacifica, I bet she would not have been fired in the first place.  But, and this is huge, as a conservative (Florida Republican) she would never get those jobs in the first place, not owing to any trans issue, but to her politics - and we talking about a political position.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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NicholeW.

I think her judgement has been shown again and again to be, well, not very good.

She comes across to me right now as someone who went into transition 1) in a very public way and 2) without much good guidance and 3) not accepting of any good guidance that was offered her.

Basically, she has acted as if all she was doing was changing her hairstyle and the way she dressed and that she is still the same as she was before. IOW, she walks with all her male-, social- and political-presumptions of her place in the world intact. Exactly what she bemoans and denigrates: "a man in a dress."

Like Reza Pahlavi (the Shah of Iran) & Antonio Somoza (the Nicaraguan dictator) she still thinks all of her prerogatives are still in-place.

I feel for her. She's been used, but I also feel she contrived in the using herself. Lack of preparation and refusal to heed good advice. Of course it's difficult. It's difficult for everyone who undertakes a transition. I'd hate to see her be no more than an object-lesson, but it looks like that's where she's heading.

As for hiring her as a city-manager? I wouldn't, not right now. Her judgement has been lacking throughout this circus. From her original announcements and the way she perceived those she did tell to her current attempts to place the genie back into the bottle. Given that would I want her managing my village, let alone a city? No.

Many of us go into this with some rather vague and silly notions of just how we are going to make the transition. Many are rather successful, perhaps not out in the limelight of celebrity, but as people who maintain or re-obtain employment and manage to make a life we can live with.

If she would simply spend about two years in TS graduate school with people like Calpernia Addams, Lynn Conway and Jenny Boylan... (I'm sure she would think of the more celebrated as her peers) heck, with Tink, Kate and Keira ... she might get a clue as to how to be more successful.

Nichole
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Joyce

Quote from: tekla on January 02, 2008, 06:33:58 PM
A) Surely I did not equate a professor at a state college or university with a dogcatcher?  I've been away from academia long enough not to bend reality that far.  Would you not, my professor, refer to that as a "reducto ad absurdum" if one of your little ones gave it to you?  Likewise, a city manager, far above a poor professor, stranded in their garret with only the bicycle from the Goodwill to transport you back and fourth, is at a slightly higher rank than dogcatcher (unless that dogcatcher makes $140K per year, in which case, hey!!! I'm really, really good with dogs.) 

B), a professor at a state institution is not drawing his paycheck from a local government.

C) Wow?  Where have you been?  Do you know that its a lot harder to get into an K-8 teaching job - particularly as a male - than ANY higher education job?  Fewer background checks for sure. And yeah, for the record, I do want to know what kind of people are teaching my kids, and I do think I have some say in that too as a parent.  Bet you think the same thing.

I'm certainly glad you've clarified your definition of "very public," to be narrowly construed.  If the reductio ad absurdum helped ferret out broad generalities (as it apparently did), then its didactic purpose was exactly as intended.  Introducing salary at this point is a helpful clarification, as well, which would mean that those of us falling below a certain salary line would be exempt from public scrutiny, i would hope.  I don't know what you'd do with a very visible, but poorly paid, public servant, though.

Regarding 'local,' that's an awfully slippery term -- state money doesn't just flow from Austin, but is administered locally at the university, and the local influence is exercised through the university's board of regents, and they've shown over and over to be very concerned with local opinions.  In fact, "local' could apply to neighborhood, city, county, utility district, region, and so on.  And i don't recall your initial post about holding people accountable to the public saying anything about "local' -- you used the word 'very public" and gave "government" as an example of what 'very public' means.

Your point C contains a lot of wisdom, tekla, but I do not care if one of my kids' teachers wears fetish-wear under their school-marm dresses.  You say "what kind of people," and yes, I would agree with you that I am very interested if they have violent tendencies, if they have a criminal record, or if they are bad teachers.  But I'd draw the line in defining "what kind of people" at political party, sexual preference, taste in art or music, or any number of irrelevant characteristics.
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Hazumu

Quote from: SusanK on December 31, 2007, 08:44:49 AM
Quote from: Karen on December 31, 2007, 12:16:27 AM
She didn't ask for or seek out the celebrity, she was shoved in, chewed up thoroughly and spit out.

What? She walked into the city council meeting with her eyes wide open and knew the possibilities and probabilities, or else she was either very naive, blind or worse. She had a low six figure income and still has an excellent resume, and she can't find a good job recruiter? She has a year severance pay, gets money for speaking engagements and the documentary (I've read they're paying her srs), and she's worried about money? Like she understands the real world of most transwomen?
She did not walk into the meeting with no one aware and just suddenly out herself. 

She was outed against her will and then walked into a storm, complete with a media feeding frenzy, not enough supporters, and WAY too many enemies who dropped stuff and made time to come down and pummel her in front of their friends and the nation's media. 

I dare anybody to know what awaits you, and still walk into that situation anyway, when it would be so much easier to just run away. 

I've seen too many people who've had celebrity thrust upon them thusly.  I dare any of you to go through what she went through and remain unscathed.  I don't like the quotes Susan Stanton gave, and I don't like it that it appears that HRC has wooed her as their current Token ->-bleeped-<-®™, but I think at this point she needs understanding, support, and good friendship.

Karen

Posted on: January 02, 2008, 09:49:20 PM
Quote from: Nichole W. on January 02, 2008, 11:11:45 AM
I think there are times when all of us may get upset about at least one 'man in a dress.'
Funny you should say that.  I had a local girl rave on in my presence about 'virilized ->-bleeped-<-s'.  I guess there are those of us who feel ashamed because another chooses to behave in a manner we're afraid will reflect badly on ourselves, rather than just trying to rise above it (if possible.)

Karen
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