My friend made a point to me today after i watched a documentary after i got upset at a question that was asked to this trans guy the questioned seemed very rude and ignorant it seemed like he was saying his genitals made him a guy and that they should be sure about things because they are young.
Then my friend told me that we basically all do it now and its become a expression or symbolization for some people and so i think it's just curiosity and that isn't always going to come out in a easy way.
Then i realized she was right it is just curiosity in the end is it us who are just so tired of being hurt that we are quick to jump? I'm just wanting to know people opinions, personally i'm not 100% sure myself but i do think someones things are taken to heart to much. Even though i understand on the same end that some questions should never be asked (I'm trans) and i understand that it's hard questions and sometimes uncomfortable or seems rude. Iv'e been hurt by some myself recently but my friend did make me wonder and thats the point. 

I'm having trouble understanding who asked what, and it's unclear what gender the trans person was -- you say "trans guy" => trans man, but then say "genitals made him a guy" => AMAB, which usually means cis male or trans feminine.

Anyway:

tl;dr: I don't think we're oversensitive.

We live in a society which believes that it's up to cis people to decide whether we trans people are allowed to say that we are who we know we are, and figures that they're entitled to question and examine us as closely and intrusively as they like in order to make that decision.  Or simply to satisfy their "curiosity."

Curiosity doesn't excuse asking rude and intrusive questions.  Curiosity doesn't excuse someone from trying to figure out how the questions they ask are likely to be felt by the person they're asking.  And when there are entire social groups that are routinely othered and invalidated using certain kinds of questions, it's the questioner's responsibility to know that and not ask those questions, however curious they may be.

I'm a little sensitive on this, since I frequently see privileged people asking and saying stuff that invalidates or puts down people in a less privileged group and then, when people in that group complain, insist that they're being "too sensitive."

ditto on the confusion

My twopence worth... any individual, group or section of society which feels insecure or under threat will tend to become hypervigilant - and thus from an external perspective oversensitive... which is to say yes I'm absolutely 100% certain that large sections of the trans community are indeed highly over sensitive - just like any other marginalised and often misunderstood group.

So while its true, its certainly not a unique failing, and absolutely nobody should be beating themselves up about it because in many ways its a highly understandable and normal psychological reaction to what can be, for some, a very stressfull time in their lives.

PS I'm currently doing my psychiatry rotation so I've seen this sort of hypervigilance in many patients in my clinics, so I am pretty sure its fairly universal for anyone who is experiencing "issues".

Quote from: Asche on March 15, 2016, 02:55:10 PM
I'm having trouble understanding who asked what, and it's unclear what gender the trans person was -- you say "trans guy" => trans man, but then say "genitals made him a guy" => AMAB, which usually means cis male or trans feminine.

Anyway:

tl;dr: I don't think we're oversensitive.

We live in a society which believes that it's up to cis people to decide whether we trans people are allowed to say that we are who we know we are, and figures that they're entitled to question and examine us as closely and intrusively as they like in order to make that decision.  Or simply to satisfy their "curiosity."

Curiosity doesn't excuse asking rude and intrusive questions.  Curiosity doesn't excuse someone from trying to figure out how the questions they ask are likely to be felt by the person they're asking.  And when there are entire social groups that are routinely othered and invalidated using certain kinds of questions, it's the questioner's responsibility to know that and not ask those questions, however curious they may be.

I'm a little sensitive on this, since I frequently see privileged people asking and saying stuff that invalidates or puts down people in a less privileged group and then, when people in that group complain, insist that they're being "too sensitive."

If you don't understand my wording i'd wait till i can edit this and re read it later
sorry for the confusion, i'll go into it later i may use numbers as the peoples names idk if that'll help.

While I think some trans people can be overly melodramatic and hurl accusations of transphobia at the slightest perceived slur or insult or inappropriate comment/question it is also true that we live in a very transphobic, cis centric ignorant society. Unchecked, "harmless" jokes and ignorant attitudes become slurs become outrage, insults, regressive legislation and then bashings and murder. So a bit of sensitivity goes a long way to stemming the tide.

i do think we tend to be more protective of our community in general that we immediately push others into the inappropriate or rude section. let alone they are people who have been straight all their life and living in a very close-minded part of town. so in their mind, men are men, women are women, there can't be other ways around.
if i were them, i'd probably ask the same kind of questions. maybe they didn't mean to be rude, but their tone just came up different and it meant different to us.
i'm always open to questions. and i actually have done some tests. giving the same very homophobic question, and ask my friends to say it. it's funny how some say the same question, and it comes out super rude.
what i do is forgive if there's something inappropriate comes up, and forget about it. i just simply reply that's something personal if i don't want to answer it.

I see myself as Transgender woman and proud to be that. I don't try and hide it.. fortunately I live in Bangkok and HK so there is virtually zero negativity. The few that are negative tend to control their exptessing negative attitudes. There is such a large open population of us here that it could be dangerous for those who say negative things openly ...we have the populous support....quite different I guess from the Western countries

I see extremes in both directions.

I see people bristling at what is sincere curiosity.

I also see trans people blase at what is clear-cut patronizing, such as the WPATH real-life test requirements that assumes we're not able to make decisions about our own gender, or man-in-a-dress humor at the expense of trans people.

Trans people shouldn't have to constantly parse our transness for cis people. Just because they often don't understand us, or what it's like to be in our shoes, they don't have to explain to us what it's like to be cis. It isn't our job to cater to cis people's curiosity.
That being said, people can be melodramatic, trans and cis. I make a point to ask people I know to tone down offensive anti LGBT rhetoric when I come across it, because I feel like there might be some people that will hear me and it will make a difference. I don't expect to shame them or instantly change them, but I know they probably will watch what they say around me from then on.
There are always going to be ignorant people, even some who pride themselves on it. The trick is to call a spade a spade and point out when people are being homophobic and misogynistic and transphobic and biphobic, etc.. Sometimes it's more important to have a voice and be heard, because complacency won't get us anywhere IMO.


     Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would compare it to when white people ask to touch and examine black peoples' hair. While they may have good intentions and "sincere curiosity" as their motivation, it does not in any circumstance excuse such behavior. Intentions don't negate the impact of the behavior which is to dehumanize and other what is perceived as different. So, no, it's never ok to ask trans people about their genitalia or to ask them anything really relating to their gender (unless you have been invited to do so). And if I'm offended because I've been dehumanized, exoticized and objectified I really could care less if someone thinks I'm oversensitive. I think I'm just rightfully reacting to what is rude and ignorant.

Quote from: Rejennyrated on March 15, 2016, 03:53:37 PM
My twopence worth... any individual, group or section of society which feels insecure or under threat will tend to become hypervigilant - and thus from an external perspective oversensitive... which is to say yes I'm absolutely 100% certain that large sections of the trans community are indeed highly over sensitive - just like any other marginalised and often misunderstood group.

I'm just curious as to how you determine that someone is highly over sensitive? What exactly is the right amount of sensitivity towards a culture and society that for a large part doesn't accept you and in which you may even be in danger because of your identity?

Quote from: freebrady2015 on March 16, 2016, 10:05:07 AM
I would compare it to when white people ask to touch and examine black peoples' hair. While they may have good intentions and "sincere curiosity" as their motivation, it does not in any circumstance excuse such behavior. Intentions don't negate the impact of the behavior which is to dehumanize and other what is perceived as different. So, no, it's never ok to ask trans people about their genitalia or to ask them anything really relating to their gender (unless you have been invited to do so). And if I'm offended because I've been dehumanized, exoticized and objectified I really could care less if someone thinks I'm oversensitive. I think I'm just rightfully reacting to what is rude and ignorant.

well said

I have kinky hair so growing up I dealt with, "omg I wanna touch your hair" all the time. It was really annoying and sometimes when I'd fall asleep on the bus I'd wake up to someone touching it 

I don't think we are oversensitive. We have good reasons and it's necessary to be sensitive. When people want to talk about others genitalia, it's obviously we are reacting. We shouldn't accept other people's lack of respect, if we have to respect them back. The respect has to go both ways. Some questions etc. are private. You just don't ask other about their genitalia, how they have sex etc. I understand trans people ask each other such questions like that to see which experiences they share. But I don't get it why cis-people need to know these things. I think cis-people can get informed in a good way without being rude. Some people in the North were curious at black people in the past, but that didn't gave them any good reasons to be rude. We are all difference.

Quote from: freebrady2015 on March 16, 2016, 10:18:54 AM
I'm just curious as to how you determine that someone is highly over sensitive? What exactly is the right amount of sensitivity towards a culture and society that for a large part doesn't accept you and in which you may even be in danger because of your identity?

I don't feel the need to calibrate this as a general observation. I have simply observed that people that perceive themselves to be under threat generally tend to become hypervigilant - that is simply an observed trait.

However as a very general example, when some comment by a third party is percieved as an insult or threat by others when it has been pretty clear to me that none was intended then that would appear to me to be oversensitivity. As I myself have been post op for around 30 years I have been walking the walk and talking the talk since the 1970's so I'm reasonably aware, and yet there have been instances where it has been pretty apparent to me that no offence or slight was ever intended by the speaker, while others have reacted as though the malicious intent was obvious...

Now clearly I'm not infallible, but having observed this on many occasions its prety obvious that either I'm a thick skinned insensitive oaf, which frankly I doubt because I wouldnt have passed the rigorous psychological tests to get in to medical school if I was, or perhaps, just perhaps, a few of those whose reactions I observed were indeed being a touch over sensitive. Its not proof - but we can only base our opinions on our own experiences in life. Hence it is my opinion.

Quote from: Rejennyrated on March 16, 2016, 05:35:10 PM
I don't feel the need to calibrate this as a general observation. I have simply observed that people that perceive themselves to be under threat generally tend to become hypervigilant - that is simply an observed trait.

However as a very general example, when some comment by a third party is percieved as an insult or threat by others when it has been pretty clear to me that none was intended then that would appear to me to be oversensitivity. As I myself have been post op for around 30 years I have been walking the walk and talking the talk since the 1970's so I'm reasonably aware, and yet there have been instances where it has been pretty apparent to me that no offence or slight was ever intended by the speaker, while others have reacted as though the malicious intent was obvious...

Now clearly I'm not infallible, but having observed this on many occasions its prety obvious that either I'm a thick skinned insensitive oaf, which frankly I doubt because I wouldnt have passed the rigorous psychological tests to get in to medical school if I was, or perhaps, just perhaps, a few of those whose reactions I observed were indeed being a touch over sensitive. Its not proof - but we can only base our opinions on our own experiences in life. Hence it is my opinion.

I understand your point and where you're coming from. My point is that intent really doesn't matter at all. I believe most of the time the intent isn't malicious when cis people ask questions or make comments/observations. But the intent, while not malicious, is ill-informed and ignorant. It's really very simple to understand when you think about it that trans people don't like these questions, no one out of the blue asks a cis person about their genitalia or sex life. Or maybe this happens very rarely and it's met with disbelief that someone would be so rude as to ask such inappropriate and blunt questions. But when trans people are asked the same questions they are considered ok and just curiosity. At least for me personally, it's important to insist on my right to exist as a full person and respected in the same way as everyone else.

Now, do I think that people can over-react? Absolutely. There is an appropriate way to deal with offensive people and questions and it doesn't have to include shaming or raising your voice or anything of that nature.

I think just from the studies I have done in my undergraduate days, any group that has pariah status is probably going to be defensive. People that fall into the LGBT spectrum are seen in many places as "outsiders" & are therefore questioned about their choices over & over again, which can have the effect of making someone be very defensive.