Hi Alexandra
Thats the whole point I reckon - God could so easily step in and make us good, we could all be saints
However he/she (because God is far beyond sex, not limited by anything) would like to give us a chance to see what we could do with free will. 

You are right, God must be feeling disappointed - but God's patience & mercy & forgiveness is infinite I reckon.

And yes, you DONT need anybody to interpret - thats what the Protestants originally were about (before politics stepped in   )

I'd do well to remember Wittgenstein: whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.  But danged if I can keep my mouth shut.

Suppose some unsolved equation models a problem of interest.  No one's making any headway on it, but people concerned are in three camps: those who insist the equation has no solution (atheists); those who assert it has a unique solution (monotheists); and those who claim it has multiple solutions (proper polytheists).

What camp would I be in?  Well, I'm not concerned with the equation, I don't think it models the problem, and I don't think that any equation could.  So, I'm in none of the above camps.  Nonetheless, I do consider myself to be in the God camp.  Explaining why, though, is almost certainly beyond my abilities.  But I will say this: I haven't adopted a belief; I've stumbled upon an intuition.  And intuition (this one, at least) doesn't seem to be contagious.

-Celia

QuoteSuppose some unsolved equation models a problem of interest.  No one's making any headway on it, but people concerned are in three camps: those who insist the equation has no solution (atheists); those who assert it has a unique solution (monotheists); and those who claim it has multiple solutions (proper polytheists).

you forgot those who don't care if it has a solution-agnostics.

Dennis

Cassie - I agree with you that being religious takes a "leap of faith."  It, to me, is amazing that so many (some say a majority of the U.S.) believe.  I wonder how much of that belief is due to the "placebo effect."  ie. if you believe something will work, generally it will.

Alexandra - You said, "Your beliefs in a Supreme Being should be between you and your God. Nobody else. We'd ALL be so much better off. IMO!"  Amen to that!  I think we'd have fewer wars if "belief" wasn't so group-oriented -- if you belong to this group, you're saved (and may get a few dozen virgins in Heaven).

Celia - I liked the way you broke beliefs down to equations.  You say you've stumbled on "intuition."  Interesting way to put it.  It sounds so much more reasonable than out and out "belief."  I still wonder how people can believe so fully.  I'm sure "snake-oil salesmen" would love to know why the sale of "belief" works so well in religion but is met with skepticism in business.  Anyone who asks you to "believe" something works without Consumer Reports backing them up is someone trying to "shake you down" for money.

Dennis - As always, very humorous.  "Solution-agnostics" indeed!  I'm kind of a solution-agnostic about warring factions in the middle-East.  It's so hard when everyone has God or Alah on their side.  Darn convenient.

Teri Anne

God is on nobodys side - its a huge presumption for sides to think he is, like God was someones exclusive property.

Quote from: Dennis on February 06, 2006, 11:51:51 PM
you forgot those who don't care if it has a solution-agnostics.

Actually, Dennis, though I didn't enumerate the people who don't care about the equation, I didn't exactly forget about them (boldface inserted for emphasis):

Quote from: Celia on February 06, 2006, 04:10:44 PM
Suppose some unsolved equation models a problem of interest.  No one's making any headway on it, but people concerned are in three camps: those who insist the equation has no solution (atheists); those who assert it has a unique solution (monotheists); and those who claim it has multiple solutions (proper polytheists).

-Celia

Quote from: rana on February 07, 2006, 05:12:56 AM
God is on nobodys side - its a huge presumption for sides to think he is, like God was someones exclusive property.

I second that. Human arrogance knows no bounds.

Alexandra........  your so right that when we share our ideology of God / Godess we should know its a personal thing. Many times though we want others to know what has happened in our lives (my previous long post) so that we can hope that others find something close to it themselves.

Its like a no win situation.. if we share, it is as if, we are telling others, its our way or the highway and if we don't share, its as if, we don't care about anyone, but ourselves.

I do know in my own case my life has gotten better due to my spirituality, because it has given me a true love that never ends.. However, it got worse though when i used others religousity.When i use to get involved with religions i would judge others.. That was sick.. ..

I just believe and have faith and wish others the same.. ....... but sometimes i say these simple things.......... in long drawn out post

hugs love Danielle

Quote from: Danielegrl on February 07, 2006, 10:19:52 PM
Many times though we want others to know what has happened in our lives (my previous long post) so that we can hope that others find something close to it themselves.

Its a double edged sword . . . once you open that door, EVERYBODY gets to have a say on the subject, including the Rev's Fallwell, Robertson and Phelps. One would think a Supreme Being would be able to reach the masses without reliant on other humans to "spread the word". Anyway, as you said, its a no-win situation which brings up the point of perhaps it may be time to rethink the way we worship in our society today. SILENCE IS GOLDEN anyone?

hello!

I believe that God is a myth.  I don't understand a loving father who would cast his children into an eternal lake of fire for not worshiping him, LOL!  One of my friends is a christian, but she has a very interesting take on it...she says that she believes in God, but believes that he has no more interest in us than we do in a swarm of ants.  He created us, and the earth and goes on about other business!  She has no belief in Jesus/God as a "personal" thing.  She is the only person I know who has that idea of christianity.  Interesting thread...

hello!
  Alexandra you said this:
"Your beliefs in a Supreme Being should be between you and your God. Nobody else. We'd ALL be so much better off" Though this statement offers some truth I would disagree. As much as faith is between you and God it is also between humanity. To say that if we kept our faiths to ourselves we'd live in a better place simply can't be true. Take for example the dark ages when it was the monestaries that kept western civilalization alive by offering food and education and more, all that was due to their faith in their God.
  Second, from a christian persepective, Dietrich Bonhoffer in his book "life together" talks about that it is through Christ that we become brothers and sisters to each other and children under God. I can't seem to understand that as one becomes part of a family that a relationship with the head of the family can stay between yourself and the head without effecting others. I know that within christianity it is about community and personal faith. Yes our faith does come down to us and the supreme being but our beliefs affect more then just us, so i would suggest our beliefs involve others.
James P.S. I'm sorry if I offended someone!

If my writting is hard to understanding I apologize i'm not much for words, and feel free and encouraged to challange any of my thoughts and beliefs.

Would the extinction of what was western civilization then have been so bad?
In that vein, one can just as easily view the black death as punishment that was meant to eradicate western civilization.

As for joining the family per se, I disagree with the thought that there is, was or will be, any separation at all.

P.s. I agree that our personal beliefs affect others... I think there has been plenty of evidence of this throughout history.

james, in the absence of compelling evidence that god exists, keeping faith private would make today's world so much better. As stated above, a "civilized" society completely under control of a church isn't much of a society. Surely you'll agree an entire civilization that forbids belief in a supreme being wouldn't be much of a society either.

Hello
Alexandra: "Surely you'll agree an entire civilization that forbids belief in a supreme being wouldn't be much of a society either." True. I would doubt a society could ever accomplish such a feat. I also agree that a church should not run the state or force everyone to believe in one faith (i.e. crusades) for it will cause great problems. Agreeing that both extremes are dangerous we are left with to middle options: beliefs should be completly individual or beliefs have influence on community. (not run community though)

If one where to search out the reprecussions of these two middle options i'm positive one would find both  have draw backs and positive effects . Some questions arise such as can free speech exsist then?, does are purpose in life only extend to ourself?, how far can one speak about their beliefs?, if ones beliefs aren't dervied from spiritual beliefs yet affect others can they be sensored etc... From my perspective faith can't be all personal for it would destroy all aspects of community. I understand that I can't change your mind nor do I want to and nor will you change mine but I do want to say I have enjoyed your responses. As I see it we need to teach the ability to articulate our beliefs better (I understand I do a poor job, english is not my best subject) and respect others. Yeah there are jerks out there who say stuff that disgust me in the name of a faith while others are doing the complete opposite living tremdous lives who share their faith. No situation is win win as I see it.

Your first point about not enough compelling evidence. My question is what do you need to see that God exsists. In my faith I can look around outside and see God in nature and people. Amongst all the crap in the world there is such beuty and I can not attribute that to luck. On the evidence of God their are alot of good books on Apologitics or using resoning that God exsists. It may be fun to look into some of that. Just a suggestion. It may not be historical evidence or scientific but I would argue reason and logic form good arguments
James

james, you know, I look at the world see things that indicate a supreme being wasn't involved in the creation process.

but just so you know, I also believe we don't have ample evidence showing that God doesn't exist either, so in the absence of evidence either way I try to concern myself in the meantime with "other things" but am constantly disturbed by the extremists you mentioned. I don't see this getting better anytime soon.

QuoteGod's patience & mercy & forgiveness is infinite

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am understanding that views such as this are common. In essence God is an all knowing omnipresent and omnipotent, super duper merciful, caring kind of Father figure.

Do I have the basic idea correct?

Well, I suppose it depends on which books you read. As I understand it the old testimate depicted a rather unkind fire and brimstone type of God.

...

I suppose it amounts mostly to personal experience. My life has been unpleasant and hurtful enough (and I do not even mention the mismatch of brain and body in this) to make me think who ever is in charge isn't very nice at all. In fact if it is anyone but myself responsible for this life... lets just say, I'm not happy with them at all.

But not all games we play are fun. Not all lessons are pleasant.
But what happens when life wears you down and it's all sand in the wind? ... all for naught?

Is it alright because that is what your God wanted? ... for you to suffer and be his pawn? Do you forgive because it was for your own good? Or do you spite because he had no right?

What if God isn't a myth, do you forgive him for all the hurt? All the pain? All the suffering? Do you thank him for the joy? The happiness? ... does it even out? Do you say "ouch, oh well I learned something?" and get on with your existence?

Life hurts. Deeply and thoroughly. It has since my earliest memories. ... do you forgive eons of hurt? Eons of suffering and pain? Do you just forgive because it's the "Right thing to do" ? Do you walk away and no longer play the game? Do you grin and bear it because it is wanted of you?

You look about and see everything, the world the planets the universe.  If there was not the hand of God in the creation of all this what is existence then   without God everything would be meaningless.

Kimberly yes you have the basic idea correct. God is infinite & merciful. 

Do you really think that all the hurt and injustice done to you was Gods fault?

I would not have anything to do with a religion whose God wanted you to suffer and have no free will - that sounds so much like the Communism of Lenin & Stalin - not Christianity or in fact any real religion

Quote from: rana on February 18, 2006, 05:43:23 AM...
Kimberly yes you have the basic idea correct. God is infinite & merciful.
...

The definition of mercy I see in life is not merciful to me.

So, does God overlook those around me or am I missing something?

Quote from: rana on February 18, 2006, 05:43:23 AM...
Do you really think that all the hurt and injustice done to you was Gods fault?
...

Most of it is the game of life.

However, who is responsible for this game?  The grand all-knowing all-powerful creator, no?

If God does not make mistakes, then everything I've experienced is according to his plan. All the hurt, all the joy, all the sadness. If it is his idea, isn't my grievance with him?

O.K....If God is so merciful, why does he cast his children into a lake of fire if they do not worship him?  There seem to be two different Gods in christianity, the infinitely merciful one, and the angry, vengeful one.  Makes no sense to me.