Hey guys, I'm not overly active here, but I'm definitely browsing on the reg. I was wondering if some of you would be able to help me out with something.

I'll be involved with an upcoming feminist conference and I'm looking to start a conversation about trans (specially FTM) inclusiveness within feminist circles. There will be many topics covered, but I'd like to hear from you folks and what you wish could be said to educate and promote the inclusivity of trans men within a feminist context. I've been circling around the idea of a newfound masculine privilege, as in the way my life has changed this past year since identifying and passion as male. But surely there are other issues I have not thought about!

I appreciate any input you guys have to offer! ✌🏼️

This is such an interesting topic!

A few thoughts from someone who is at the beginning of their transition:

-I look forward to being a feminist man where my appreciation of women doesn't come from this bitter place of trying to be a different kind of woman and always trying to prove to others something about women. I think it could be liberating to be able to be a feminist but to not be seen as a woman.

-The visibility of trans men in my opinion is really important to feminism and the intersectionality of trans women. When people only think of trans women when they think of transgender people it creates an unbalanced concept of what trans is. The bathroom laws being passed are a good example of how most average folk don't even realize that trans men exist.

-I struggled for a long time as a feminist to understand that my feelings of dysphoria weren't internalized mysogyny but that I was trans. Many feminists may view trans men as having taken the easy way out and chosen male privilege but that's not how it works (as we all know).

Another feminist issue: the invalidation of trans identities among certain feminists (the trans-exclusive and "gender critical" ones.)

We mostly hear about them invalidating trans women's identities, but they also do it to trans men.  Frequently, trans men are denounced as traitors and supporters of patriarchy or, at best, deluded by internalized misogyny.

I'm recalling Ophelia Benson getting in a twitter squabble with one of the few remaining abortion providers in the USA because the abortion provider dared to speak of "people who can get pregnant" rather than "women."

Also, the infamous Michigan Womyn's Music Festival was happy to admit trans men, despite excluding trans women for supposedly being men.  While it's nice not to be excluded, in context it amounts to a denial of trans men's gender identity.

Fortunately, my impression is that such feminists are a small and dying minority.

Another (less specifically feminist) issue:

There seems to be a persistent tendency among lesbian and gay communities to not recognize trans men's identity.  E.g., admitting trans men to "women only" events.  Or a trans man of my acquaintance who has been active in our local LGBT center and has been consistently and repeatedly misgendered by some of the gay men who are active there.  It's particularly difficult for him since he identifies as a gay man (androphilic, in case it isn't clear.)  He finds the gay (gay male?) community worse in this respect than the cis community.

Made a post and I don't know if it was deleted or if I didn't send post.

I would advise against this conversation at a feminist conference. I feel like trans men are over represented in feminist spaces while trans women are severely under represented.

I don't know that you shouldn't give the speech, but I agree that trans men are often over represented while trans women are under represented, and I think that this mostly comes from people's subconscious denial of our genders.  So I think you should be careful if being misgendered bothers you--many of the people at the conference may be accepting of you being a feminist without question simply because they don't actually see you as 100% male.  That is the reason I stopped going to an LGBT church--too many people there had a very hard time with accepting that I was male (subconsciously).  As in they acknowledged it, but their doubts came out the way subconscious hold ups do.  I think the reason LG people and feminists sometimes have a harder time accepting it fully than liberal cis straight people (who may be feminists but are not feminist activists) is because their identities are tied more strongly to gender ideals and issues than cis straight people, who often haven't even THOUGHT  that much about gender issues and, therefore, have an easier time merging the idea with their subconscious beliefs.  Actually, THAT might be an interesting topic: the effect of one's subconscious feelings regarding gender and its effect on how accepting one is of trans people, male and female.  We already know that sometimes straight cis men are more accepting of trans men than trans women because they have been raised in a society that degrades any sort of feminine qualities.  I can't tell you how many men I have met who have NO problem with me but get uncomfortable if you bring up trans women.  Likely because they either do see me as man or they see me as a woman dressed as a man, something that is not considered a "perversion" the way a man dressed as a woman is--which is how they absolutely think of trans women.  There is a certain type of feminist who is the same way, just with variations on why they have a hold up against trans people.  (Note I am not talking about the majority of feminists here, as NONE of my feminist friends deny that trans people are their respective genders.)

Quote from: Nygeel on April 21, 2016, 10:19:58 AM
Made a post and I don't know if it was deleted or if I didn't send post.

I would advise against this conversation at a feminist conference. I feel like trans men are over represented in feminist spaces while trans women are severely under represented.

Yes, trans women are under represented in feminist spaces but I disagree that it's trans men who need to make room for them. It's cis women in feminist spaces who need to make room for trans women and understand that they are the same with trans women facing additional challenges to cis women.

Quote from: freebrady2015 on April 21, 2016, 08:06:31 AM
-I struggled for a long time as a feminist to understand that my feelings of dysphoria weren't internalized mysogyny but that I was trans. Many feminists may view trans men as having taken the easy way out and chosen male privilege but that's not how it works (as we all know).

Yes yes yes, this this

I was at a "feminist" panel (guess they were TERFs before the name) around 2001 where one of the panels literally told a trans man to his face that he was taking on male privilege. Trans men as the Quislings of feminism. Well, gee, if it was that easy to get off the bus, wouldn't more women do it?

I worry about this male privilege thing frequently. Apparently I don't pass at all right now, but when I do, I will have to change my personal style because I will be a white male in the South. I have cis male friends who are radicals who manage to thread that needle, but I still worry.

My late grandmother: Why do you have to wear men's clothes? Why can't you be a strong woman?

Because I'm not a woman. I'm not. Never have been. Don't imagine I will be. And when someone says of me I accomplished something as a woman, I feel like a fraud.

Quote from: freebrady2015 on April 21, 2016, 10:49:18 AM
Yes, trans women are under represented in feminist spaces but I disagree that it's trans men who need to make room for them. It's cis women in feminist spaces who need to make room for trans women and understand that they are the same with trans women facing additional challenges to cis women.

Kinda all sounds like this is going to end up being a big "what about the men?!" presentation tbh

It seems to me transwomen are usually the subject of interest when the media speak of transgender and transsexual folk. Are you sure transwomen are underrepresented out there? In my experience it's much more difficult to find information, books, studies, shows etc. on FTM than MTF. Perhaps I have what's been said here wrong or taken it in the wrong context. But it seems until very recently that FTM are underrepresented just about everywhere. Even on forums like this. (Are there any FTM staff members?)

Quite honestly I believe male and female privilege balances itself out if you look into the details and evidence, and actually falls in favor of women when it comes to safety and survival. Society may take men more seriously in some matters, but it sure cares a whole lot more for women's safety and well being than men's. You're not so much taking on the reams of male privilege and joining the non-stop party some people think the world is for men so much as shouldering greater responsibility and culpability for your actions, and the many expectations society places on men just as it does on women, including the fact that if you have problems as a man, no-one cares of course. I'm not sure what you could say to them unless you are going to agree with the general feminist narrative that men still have it so easy and women are still being oppressed and held back. Would they be interested in a transman's lived experience as a man? Would they want to hear about how being a man also comes with cons as well as pros?

Quote from: freebrady2015 on April 21, 2016, 08:06:31 AM
This is such an interesting topic!

A few thoughts from someone who is at the beginning of their transition:

-I look forward to being a feminist man where my appreciation of women doesn't come from this bitter place of trying to be a different kind of woman and always trying to prove to others something about women. I think it could be liberating to be able to be a feminist but to not be seen as a woman.

-The visibility of trans men in my opinion is really important to feminism and the intersectionality of trans women. When people only think of trans women when they think of transgender people it creates an unbalanced concept of what trans is. The bathroom laws being passed are a good example of how most average folk don't even realize that trans men exist.

-I struggled for a long time as a feminist to understand that my feelings of dysphoria weren't internalized mysogyny but that I was trans. Many feminists may view trans men as having taken the easy way out and chosen male privilege but that's not how it works (as we all know).

Agree with all of this.

Twenty years ago (when I was 17 and didn't really have words to describe my transness), I decided that as long as I could pass as a straight woman, I would keep the fact that I felt like I was a man to myself. I also decided to be the best feminist I could and to break as many stereotypes as I could... and I did... but in spite of that, I still hate being treated as a woman and I have struggled to reconcile the two. I have also struggled with the fact that I don't really like spending time with women. It is awkward all around.



Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

Quote from: Asche on April 21, 2016, 10:07:38 AM
Another feminist issue: the invalidation of trans identities among certain feminists (the trans-exclusive and "gender critical" ones.)

We mostly hear about them invalidating trans women's identities, but they also do it to trans men.  Frequently, trans men are denounced as traitors and supporters of patriarchy or, at best, deluded by internalized misogyny.

I'm recalling Ophelia Benson getting in a twitter squabble with one of the few remaining abortion providers in the USA because the abortion provider dared to speak of "people who can get pregnant" rather than "women."

Also, the infamous Michigan Womyn's Music Festival was happy to admit trans men, despite excluding trans women for supposedly being men.  While it's nice not to be excluded, in context it amounts to a denial of trans men's gender identity.

Fortunately, my impression is that such feminists are a small and dying minority.

Another (less specifically feminist) issue:

There seems to be a persistent tendency among lesbian and gay communities to not recognize trans men's identity.  E.g., admitting trans men to "women only" events.  Or a trans man of my acquaintance who has been active in our local LGBT center and has been consistently and repeatedly misgendered by some of the gay men who are active there.  It's particularly difficult for him since he identifies as a gay man (androphilic, in case it isn't clear.)  He finds the gay (gay male?) community worse in this respect than the cis community.

I am also attracted to men and I have to say that I've encountered the same thing.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

Quote from: Nygeel on April 21, 2016, 01:37:29 PM
Kinda all sounds like this is going to end up being a big "what about the men?!" presentation tbh

Well, I hope not. I don't see why trans men couldn't be feminist allies.

Quote from: freebrady2015 on April 21, 2016, 03:07:48 PM
Well, I hope not. I don't see why trans men couldn't be feminist allies.

I think they can be allies to feminists, or allies to women but I don't feel like there's a need for a workshop dedicated to men at a feminist con if that makes sense...

Trans women get a lot of representation as trans people, but not enough as women, particularly in feminist and lesbian spaces. You could talk about how despite being men, trans men are often included in lesbian spaces, where trans women aren't.

I feel that the presence of trans women in the media isn't always positive - that the reason that there's more trans feminine people on tv is that society is more interested in what amab people do - which is lowkey misgendering and liked to femmephobia and toxic masculinity. Some people respond more to afab people being 'strong' or 'not like other girls' but for amab people to be feminine is seen as more negative, trans or cis.

It seems like it's less unusual for afab people to wear masculine clothes (jeans, hoodies, unfitted t-shirts...) than it is for amab people to wear heels, skirts etc, and while logically the idea that skirts represent women is nonsense, society's reaction to trans women often displays how ingrained the association is.

You could also talk about how some trans men internalize misogyny to the extent that they don't believe that feminism is necessary at all.

Also I feel that while I have the experience of being perceived as female, I haven't experienced being female, because I'm not. For example, I don't want my chest, or to see it or to have anyone see it, so I don't know what it's like to want to go topless as a female and be unable to, or to be punished for trying to breast feed in public, etc. However I do know about how badly bras are designed and how women's clothes rarely have pockets, what it's like to feel under threat from the male gaze, etc.

Could you invite a trans woman to join your talk? You could compare the experience of gaining versus loosing male privilege. I don't know if i would do a talk/attend a specifically feminist event unless it was intended to be mixed gender wise (ie trans men weren't the only men there) and unless i could be sure it wasn't an unintentional misgendering, and unless i knew there'd be trans women there too.

Sorry this is vague - this is another reason why I wouldn't want to be the one to try talk about it! I hope i gave you some ideas though

Thank you all so much for the input! I look forward to sitting down and reading more in depth.

It is worth mentioning that this will be an inclusive panel that will be formed by trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals. I also live in a smaller city, so the feminist circles are fairly welcoming and well-aquatinted! Diversification is encouraged by this organizers of this conference, so I'm approaching this without much intimidation and moreso with anticipation!

Quote from: Peep on April 21, 2016, 05:06:11 PM
It seems like it's less unusual for afab people to wear masculine clothes (jeans, hoodies, unfitted t-shirts...) than it is for amab people to wear heels, skirts etc, and while logically the idea that skirts represent women is nonsense, society's reaction to trans women often displays how ingrained the association is.

A friend of mine who is non binary amab recently had a man crudely attempt to pick them up when they were wearing a skirt (but in all honesty presenting more mixed, that's their preference). They are married with two kids and work in academia and it's 2016.

We have a long way to go in countering this stupidity.

Quote from: Nygeel on April 21, 2016, 03:21:19 PM
I think they can be allies to feminists, or allies to women but I don't feel like there's a need for a workshop dedicated to men at a feminist con if that makes sense...

Why not? Men can be feminists too. Hell, men need to be feminists too. I strongly defend the notion that feminism is for men too.

Beware the TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists). The Internet makes them out to be more common than they are, but I have met a couple, for my sins, and they're vile. Worse still are the "feminists" who support transsexuals in general, but exclude trans men. I have met a lot of those.

I think one of the biggest issues with feminism and trans men is the door slammed shut notion. in many cases when a trans man comes out, feminism shuts the door on him straight away as they are now men and 'recieve male privilege'; But as they have just come out they aren't perceived as men and therefore don't recieve (or recieve in small parts) 'passing'/male privilege.

Once a trans man 'passes' he falls under the protection of male/'passing' privilege - more so if he's stealth - but in the in-between stages and in the cases of those who don't want to or cant transition, they don't have that protection; but they also don't have the protection of feminism either. I think with feminism and trans men there need to be /some/ space for them, but not necessarily the same as cis women and trans women; at least not in all areas (in things like reproductive/abortion rights trans men - provided they're still fertile and have a uterus - should be allowed a voice just as much as cis women and trans women should take the sidelines; as this is an issue that concerns people born with uterus', at least right now anyway).

Trans men should be allowed to talk in feminism on the things that concern them specifically, but they shouldn't be able to talk over other peoples voices on issues that don't concern them or don't concern them anymore.

Trans men should be able to have a safe space under feminism while transitioning/not-transitioning and are at their most vulnerable however trans men who 'pass' and recieve male/'passing' privilege need to take a more sideline and supporting role - especially on issues that don't affect then.


*I put 'passing' in quotation marks as I don't generally agree with the idea of passing/having to pass but its the only way to explain it.

I'm sure this has already been addressed in this thread (I've only read bits and pieces), but I struggled for a very long time fearing that I was trans because of internalized misogyny, and I wanted male privilege. I felt ashamed of myself that I couldn't be a strong female figure. After all, being raised and socialized as female, I was always told to aspire to be strong, to not feel shame as being a woman and to embrace my woman-ness and feminine features. So, when I realized I was trans, it was kind of a punch in the face. I already knew men (speaking in broad aspects) had privilege over women in society, and I kept calling myself weak for wanting to be a man- I was a woman, and in this day and age, I'm supposed to be proud of that. I tried convincing myself nearly constantly that I was a strong woman, and that my feelings of wanting to be a man would disappear. They didn't.

I just couldn't help but feel so ashamed. Women are amazingly strong. They face so much poo and hardship in their lives, and I wanted so badly to be like them. I wanted so badly to be an inspiring female role model, but I knew I just couldn't be. I'm not a woman.

I know I'll eventually gain male privilege once I transition. I also know being male won't be a walk in the park, either. I'm aware I'm more prone to violent attacks as a man, especially a trans man. If I'm raped as man, especially if I'm raped by a woman, nobody would take me seriously because I should have "enjoyed it".
   
I'm almost certain I'm not alone in this. In fact, I have a feeling this is a huge controversy when it comes to trans men and feminism. TERFs don't help, either.