The coolest thing though is that we recognize all these different experiences of self are real, and valid.

I see both sides because my body dysphoria and sex and sexuality is quite binary TS female, but my social experience is extremely fluid.  Male, female, and all other nonbinary experiences - its all part of who I am and how I live in this world.

Love this thread.

SJ

Jossam I can kind of relate. I'm 6 months on T but still can't grow facial hair and I don't think I look as masculine as other trans guys who've reached the 6 month mark. So socially I can't really relate to other guys and feel distant from them; yet I don't feel completely male anyway which makes me feel even more distant. I think I'm just past or almost past the awkward months were I look in between and sort of awkward; so I believe to most people I look like a really young guy. But I can't see it and it makes me feel self conscious because people aren't seeing the 'real' me or I'm not sure if there seeing me as an LGBTQ person.

I think when I hear girls discuss periods or shopping; I can relate because I was seen as female and went through these same things; but it feels alien to me because they're discussing it from a female perspective; not my experiences. I feel a lot more comfortable when I'm talking to a fem guy about shopping because I'm a fem guy myself so can understand the awkwardness and difficulty of going through that. Or talking to a AFAB person about periods; because they understand the awkwardness; dysphoria and humour of going through that as a trans person.

I think being trans is a completely unique experience unsimiliar to anything else which effects the brain. There are no tests for it and no clear way of fully explaining it. It's simply an unquantifiable 'feeling' I just hope when I go to the nb meet up I won't be the only one like me there. You only seem to hear of people being 100% agender or people being a mix of female and male.

On this subject I feel as though I can relate to some degree to all people, by virtue of being human and because of the generally similar behavior/hopes/fears/dreams humans all tend to have, but also at the same time to no other people, because I have zero experience of being in another person's head, feeling their feelings or living their life.

I can only look at the human species as a whole and say, well, I have no true idea what it is to be a human other than myself - male or female; but I know that there's a definite disparity on average between the things women like to do and how they speak and act and associate with other women and men, etc. and the way that I approach these things. I notice how men find me "odd" for a female and women also find me "odd" for a female; but I also highly suspect should my gender be switched I would immediately be considered to some degree a "typical" male. It's for this reason I've identified myself as male - the observed similarities between myself and males in general, as well as the unfortunate fact that we need labels because we need language to communicate these things.

I'd be quite happy if there was no such thing as gender in the world - if philosophy and intellectual pursuits were far more important than expressing those things, or if all human beings happened to be asexual or hermaphroditic. Really wouldn't bother me or freak me out. It might be less interesting... but yes, my identity is really one of observation and convenience. More other people's convenience than mine, I suppose.

Quote from: arice on April 23, 2016, 05:36:46 PM
I consider myself masculine of centre and I'd like top surgery and possibly hormones... but I also don't negate the effects of my lifetime being seen as some sort of female. I think that if I had transitioned as a child or teen then I might have been able to be a binary trans guy... but I didn't know it was an option.

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This is exactly what my wife is going through now. She chose Transmasculine as her label.

MOC people are well known in the Butch/Femme community, however not everyone identifies that way. Many MOC Butches do go on to have either top surgery or use T and then may(or may not) identify as straight, instead of lesbian/gay. I don't know what your orientation is, but there is a lot of good info out there if you google under this.

Also, a big influence on MOC and non binary people is Ivan Coyote, you can Youtube her stuff. They are an author and right on the forefront of the movement. That really helped my wife to feel more comfortable(not to mention the fact I have a huge crush on Ivan myself   ). I hope this helps.

Quote from: Feminator on May 01, 2016, 10:53:15 AM

This is exactly what my wife is going through now. She chose Transmasculine as her label.

MOC people are well known in the Butch/Femme community, however not everyone identifies that way. Many MOC Butches do go on to have either top surgery or use T and then may(or may not) identify as straight, instead of lesbian/gay. I don't know what your orientation is, but there is a lot of good info out there if you google under this.

Also, a big influence on MOC and non binary people is Ivan Coyote, you can Youtube her stuff. They are an author and right on the forefront of the movement. That really helped my wife to feel more comfortable(not to mention the fact I have a huge crush on Ivan myself   ). I hope this helps.

Thank you. I appreciate your response.
I lIke men and when I was younger that kind of kept me from pursuing aNY kind of transition. I am 37 and when I was hitting puberty, I saw how cruel people were to gay men... and that contributed to me teenage decision to try to pass as a straight woman... which I did with intermittent success...

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Quote from: Elis on May 01, 2016, 10:03:53 AM
Jossam I can kind of relate. I'm 6 months on T but still can't grow facial hair and I don't think I look as masculine as other trans guys who've reached the 6 month mark. So socially I can't really relate to other guys and feel distant from them; yet I don't feel completely male anyway which makes me feel even more distant. I think I'm just past or almost past the awkward months were I look in between and sort of awkward; so I believe to most people I look like a really young guy. But I can't see it and it makes me feel self conscious because people aren't seeing the 'real' me or I'm not sure if there seeing me as an LGBTQ person.

I think when I hear girls discuss periods or shopping; I can relate because I was seen as female and went through these same things; but it feels alien to me because they're discussing it from a female perspective; not my experiences. I feel a lot more comfortable when I'm talking to a fem guy about shopping because I'm a fem guy myself so can understand the awkwardness and difficulty of going through that. Or talking to a AFAB person about periods; because they understand the awkwardness; dysphoria and humour of going through that as a trans person.

I think being trans is a completely unique experience unsimiliar to anything else which effects the brain. There are no tests for it and no clear way of fully explaining it. It's simply an unquantifiable 'feeling' I just hope when I go to the nb meet up I won't be the only one like me there. You only seem to hear of people being 100% agender or people being a mix of female and male.

I understand. I look like a teen guy with no facial hair, but we all know that unless they have some special condition, cis men already have facial hair when they're 23. So, me not having facial hair at all puts me in an awkward place where I can pass as cis male pre T, but more like a 16 year old teen and not a 23 year old man, and some people ask me how old I am when I buy cigarettes, or talk to me like they'd talk to a teen boy, and it just feels awkward because I'm not a teen anymore, but it was perfectly fine years ago. More rarely, strangers read female (must be my mannerisms, I'm not really the macho kind of guy, so people might focus on those + lack of facial hair), which is even worse, of course. Anyway, regardless of society, I want to transition because I want my body to match my gender. Doesn't matter what society says, I don't want this current body, and passing will never be as important as looking in the mirror, alone in a room, and saying "wow, now this is the body I like!"

QuoteI can only look at the human species as a whole and say, well, I have no true idea what it is to be a human other than myself

This.

QuoteI think being trans is a completely unique experience unsimiliar to anything else which effects the brain.

Also this.

QuoteMOC people are well known in the Butch/Femme community, however not everyone identifies that way. Many MOC Butches do go on to have either top surgery or use T and then may(or may not) identify as straight, instead of lesbian/gay.

And this is where my brain completely stops understanding and I get extremely confused.   

I guess me and other people who are totally binary transsexuals are very boring compared to others 

I always thought butch meant lesbians who liked to look masculine. I understand nbs may want top surgery but if you go on T; doesn't that mean you mostly feel male  . I don't understand when nbs say they want T to look more androgynous; it doesn't work that way.

I'd rather be boring than be this confused about my gender

Quote from: Elis on May 02, 2016, 05:54:38 AM
I always thought butch meant lesbians who liked to look masculine. I understand nbs may want top surgery but if you go on T; doesn't that mean you mostly feel male  . I don't understand when nbs say they want T to look more androgynous; it doesn't work that way.

I'd rather be boring than be this confused about my gender

I absolutely agree with Elis here. To me all these labels sound a bit unnecessary and people who have so many mixed feelings sound like they need to figure out and find themselves. I do not mean to be disrespectful here, it's just that the more I try to understand such "mixed identities" the less I understand and I end up with a headache

The MOC concept sounds really confusing to me. I looked it up on Google and my head hurts lol

I can understand NB as a concept; I'm able to understand gender queer and agender but anything else and I'm lost. There's too many labels and too many sub categories. I get people label themselves so that they fit within a community and so they feel less like a freak; but where do you draw the line on which labels are necessary and which blur into each other. I don't wish to disrespect anyone. I really hope I don't accidentally offend someone at the nb group

Quote from: Elis on May 02, 2016, 05:54:38 AM
I always thought butch meant lesbians who liked to look masculine. I understand nbs may want top surgery but if you go on T; doesn't that mean you mostly feel male  . I don't understand when nbs say they want T to look more androgynous; it doesn't work that way.

I'd rather be boring than be this confused about my gender

No offense taken.  
Yes. Butch means a more masculine presenting lesbian.  This is this huge thing in the LGBT community currently and does cause LOTS of headaches for those of us who are part of that community to say the least. Many Butches identify as Genderqueer, Tansmasculine, Transgendered, MOC , NB or 3rd Gendered. It IS all rather confusing and probably mostly to much for anyone to have to work through.

I get confused about the T use as well, you are not alone. My wife has been considering this and my question was "well you are non binary, won't taking T move you towards the masculine/male spectrum?' and 'does this mean you are non binary if you take it?'  If someone could explain I would appreciate it, I feel kinda stupid about it. 

Quote from: Feminator on May 02, 2016, 07:21:29 PM
No offense taken.  
Yes. Butch means a more masculine presenting lesbian.  This is this huge thing in the LGBT community currently and does cause LOTS of headaches for those of us who are part of that community to say the least. Many Butches identify as Genderqueer, Tansmasculine, Transgendered, MOC , NB or 3rd Gendered. It IS all rather confusing and probably mostly to much for anyone to have to work through.

I get confused about the T use as well, you are not alone. My wife has been considering this and my question was "well you are non binary, won't taking T move you towards the masculine/male spectrum?' and 'does this mean you are non binary if you take it?'  If someone could explain I would appreciate it, I feel kinda stupid about it. 

I would imagine that, for your spouse (like me), it's not that they necessarily want to be completely masculine but they do want to be more masculine than their body currently is... also would feel like correcting a lifetime of feminine hormones.
Although I have to say that if I could magically have a completely masculine body, I would be ecstatic. I would also be more comfortable with some of my feminine traits if I was seen as a guy... my problem is not with my more feminine behaviours, my problem is with being seen as a woman, because I don't see myself as one.

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Quote from: Feminator on May 02, 2016, 07:21:29 PM
No offense taken.  
Yes. Butch means a more masculine presenting lesbian.  This is this huge thing in the LGBT community currently and does cause LOTS of headaches for those of us who are part of that community to say the least. Many Butches identify as Genderqueer, Tansmasculine, Transgendered, MOC , NB or 3rd Gendered. It IS all rather confusing and probably mostly to much for anyone to have to work through.

I get confused about the T use as well, you are not alone. My wife has been considering this and my question was "well you are non binary, won't taking T move you towards the masculine/male spectrum?' and 'does this mean you are non binary if you take it?'  If someone could explain I would appreciate it, I feel kinda stupid about it. 

Thanks for explaining . So wouldn't butch meant you mostly felt female?

I'm the same as Arice. I want a more masculine looking body; as I feel my body currently isn't the real me. I also hate being read female as I'm not one; but would feel a lot more comfortable expressing my fem side if I was read male. Then again I feel mostly male so not sure if that 'properly' counts as me being nb.

Yes I understand NB too (I used to be confused about that too, now I'm not), and agender of course, but yes there are so many labels. I knew butch lesbian meant masculine and then there's femme. But wouldn't saying transmasculine imply that the person is trans? So if an afab lesbian says they're transmasculine wouldn't it place them among trans people? And she wouldn't be lesbian but a straight trans man? Because a masculine lesbian is butch but still identifies as woman. Why say transmasculine then and not simply masculine or butch? Cause after all, as far as I know lesbians all identify as women. See this is where labels completely confuse me. Sometimes I think labels can make things easier but also harder.

I want my body completely male and my gender is completely male so it makes me binary, but sometimes I have slightly effeminate mannerisms so being read as male and having a male body would make me feel more comfortable with expressing my feminine side. I think we all have a feminine and masculine side and in most people one prevails over the other. It happens to cis and trans people. Everyone. And it has nothing to do with gender identity, just mannerisms/behavior. But for a trans man who is read as female by people he's not out to often avoids doing things that might be seen as feminine because well....it's obvious, he does not want others to interpret effeminate mannerisms as being a woman and this invalidates his real gender. I don't know if it makes sense but that's what happens to me.

I guess most cis people have stereotypes about us trans people. They expect a trans woman to be very girly and feminine and a trans man to be very manly and macho but it doesn't always work like that. And cis people are not all like that so I don't know why they expect us to be like that. I feel like small things that are ignored in cis people have a different social meaning in trans people where some cis people use them to invalidate our gender.

In the end I think each trans person is unique, binary or nb. I find nb people fascinating because it's like they break all the rules of gender, and because they prove that the world is not all black and white, but it has shades of gray. So gender identity, like physical sex, is not black and white, it only has black and white poles, the extremes (male and female) and nb people are the gray shades in between. That's how I interpret it and this image helped me better understand them
And agender people are out of the male/female spectrum so...a different color?   I find it easier to imagine things in colors/images/etc. instead of words and labels lol

Quote from: Elis on May 03, 2016, 03:30:13 AM
Thanks for explaining . So wouldn't butch meant you mostly felt female?

I'm the same as Arice. I want a more masculine looking body; as I feel my body currently isn't the real me. I also hate being read female as I'm not one; but would feel a lot more comfortable expressing my fem side if I was read male. Then again I feel mostly male so not sure if that 'properly' counts as me being nb.

Thanks your both your replies. My wife did say she does not feel either female, nor male, so that is the struggle currently for her. She really would like to present more masculine, but does not feel male. Obviously this is confusing. She did say she did not want bottom surgery, and although I feel awful for saying this, I am relieved. Cost aside, I really prefer women. My biggest issue is that I had to really work hard to accept being lesbian in the first place and it would be daunting at best, to have to work through it the other way now! lol I would of course, because she
is worth it to me.

Butch is used for gay women, their sexual orientation. Only gay women who dress more masculine are considered Butch, and some Butch women use it as a gender identity as well. So, that is what leads to confusion, because then you have Feminine of center, feels female but dresses masculine, and Masculine of center who don't want to  change their gender but feel masculine and dress so. Non Binary in other words. Like I said, it's a big thing right now in my community and many people are up in arms and such about Butch shaming, Trans shaming etc. Sometimes I think people just need something to argue about. 

Quote from: jossam on May 03, 2016, 08:51:37 AM
Yes I understand NB too (I used to be confused about that too, now I'm not), and agender of course, but yes there are so many labels. I knew butch lesbian meant masculine and then there's femme. But wouldn't saying transmasculine imply that the person is trans? So if an afab lesbian says they're transmasculine wouldn't it place them among trans people? And she wouldn't be lesbian but a straight trans man? Because a masculine lesbian is butch but still identifies as woman. Why say transmasculine then and not simply masculine or butch? Cause after all, as far as I know lesbians all identify as women. See this is where labels completely confuse me. Sometimes I think labels can make things easier but also harder

This is the heart of the issue about Butches in the LGBT community. Exactly how you state it, it causes people to argue about everyone's labels. Most lesbians do identify as women, but again, not all. So, you pretty much nailed the whole argument on the head. 

QuoteI guess most cis people have stereotypes about us trans people. They expect a trans woman to be very girly and feminine and a trans man to be very manly and macho but it doesn't always work like that. And cis people are not all like that so I don't know why they expect us to be like that. I feel like small things that are ignored in cis people have a different social meaning in trans people where some cis people use them to invalidate our gender.

I know it. It seems stereotypes are really crazy. Honestly, I never knew as a cis person that anyone who didn't feel either male or female is considered Trans of some sort or another. People just need to let people be themselves and the world will be such a nice place.(call me a dreamer!)

I dont worry about labels they dont define me.  I also dont feel confused at all.  Far from it.

Its usually hard for binary to understand nonbinary genders.  We have been socially exposed to all or nothing stuff.  Girl or boy.  Lol i am girl AND boy.  Or my own special gender....

The answers are out there, and in here.

Comes down to respect.  And finding yourself when you are in a binary world?

Yes.  Its complicated but deep inside, we all know who we are.  Just as you do darlings.

Quote from: Feminator on May 02, 2016, 07:21:29 PM
No offense taken.  
Yes. Butch means a more masculine presenting lesbian.  This is this huge thing in the LGBT community currently and does cause LOTS of headaches for those of us who are part of that community to say the least. Many Butches identify as Genderqueer, Tansmasculine, Transgendered, MOC , NB or 3rd Gendered. It IS all rather confusing and probably mostly to much for anyone to have to work through.

I get confused about the T use as well, you are not alone. My wife has been considering this and my question was "well you are non binary, won't taking T move you towards the masculine/male spectrum?' and 'does this mean you are non binary if you take it?'  If someone could explain I would appreciate it, I feel kinda stupid about it. 

Point of the thread.  Nonbinary physical dysphoria is as bad as binary for some of us.  Yet socially we may be anything, and our core gender also anything.

Trust me on that.  Im very nonbinary, and my dysphoria when the shirt is off, the hair thin, the breasts small and the ribcage large...

It hurts darlings.  A lot.

I need my body and estrogen to feel ok.  Binary or nonbinary doesnt matter at that point.  The relentless punishing agony of gender dysphoria is what matters.

Put me in a suit and im still ts body and sex, but youd never know till you see my nails.  Which are gorgeous, long and clear polished.

Im a blend.  Until the night falls and the candles and incense are lit in satin and silk.

☺

I guess I'm one of the "non-binary transsexuals" although I'm only just identifying this as a "category" for me to fit into. I always just thought of myself as hybrid too until recently.

I am actually a biological male although I have never been 'masculine'. I considered myself gay.

However in my twenties I discovered transsexualism and became somewhat obsessed by it. Although I realised a full transition would for me never be possible or desired I knew that there was something not quite right with what "I" saw (not what others saw). After researching for many years I started on low dose MtF hormones and quickly found the balance emotionally and physically to be content. I later discovered the term 'crossdreamer' and ' ->-bleeped-<-' and think this is most probably the most descriptive although I'm concerned that portrays me as a sexual deviant, which I am not.

I'm probably waffling. I guess that gives an indication of where I am though.


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 ->-bleeped-<- is typically used when someone doesnt understand nonbinary and misapplies it as a diagnosis.  It is not valid.

Pm me and i can chat with you.  I was misdiagnosed with that once.   If your a blend of course you are attracted to what you see in the mirror.  Then they label it autog.

I finally was diagnosed by someone else as a nonbinary transgender woman.  Yup.

Auto g is a discredited cis theory dear.

Talk w me on it in the nb section or better in pm.  Its a diagnosis that makes people mad and gets threads locked.

But see how little understanding of nb trans is there?   They take their paradyne and try to apply it to ours.  That wont work.  We are our own paradynes and way bigger than labels and butterfly collections of trans types.

We are unboxable, not freaks or weird, just free to be us.  And deserving to be happy as us.

SJ

->-bleeped-<- is discredited and that is indeed the reason why you shouldn't feel like a deviant.

Please note that discussion of ->-bleeped-<- isn't permitted on this forum.