Trans men are often victims of sexism by people who deny our gender identity or aren't aware of our actual gender identity at all, so if we are considered women by sexist people, we might face sexism just like cis women do.

The trans exclusive radical feminist theory that trans men are traitors and want to gain male privilege needs to stop and is utter poo. While some trans men are sexist or even misogynyst (this just has to do with sexism in society and a tendency to embrace sexism among men - both cis and trans), many others are feminist. I am a feminist now. A pretty determined and strong one, yelling at people when they get offensive with their misogyny. I don't hate the female gender. I had issues with women, which made me feel a bit harsh towards them, but now I learned that my bad experiences with women don't mean all women are like that.
I love the female gender. I love both cis and trans women. I dont mean it in a romantic or sexual way only. I just like women, period. Sometimes I prefer women to men even if they tend to be different from me and have different interests and hobbies. The idea that we trans men just hate ourselves and women is ridiculous. Plus, we don't go through discrimination, suffering, seeing doctors, therapists, getting hormones and surgeries and spending money and changing our bodies just to gain male privilege!!! It's absurd. It makes no sense. I am sure cis women would like to have the same privileges as men, but they'd never go through hrt and surgeries to get their bodies to be male!!!!!
I guess it's a small minority within the feminist movement, but this just needs to end. We are not women. We are not traitors. All of this is extremely invalidating to all trans people, not just trans men.

Trans men shouldn't be in women only spaces. Trans men are not women. No matter if they are pre everything or have transitioned/are in the process of transitioning (or never want to transition). Women only spaces should be for cis women and trans women only. Period. No trans men allowed because we are not women. Including trans men in women only spaces means they deny who we are and consider us women. Excluding trans women means they deny them. Women only spaces that include trans men and exclude trans women are highly transphobic and should have no place in 3rd wave feminism.

Quote from: jossam on April 29, 2016, 09:25:18 PM
The trans exclusive radical feminist theory that trans men are traitors and want to gain male privilege needs to stop and is utter poo. While some trans men are sexist or even misogynyst (this just has to do with sexism in society and a tendency to embrace sexism among men - both cis and trans), many others are feminist. I am a feminist now. A pretty determined and strong one, yelling at people when they get offensive with their misogyny. I don't hate the female gender. I had issues with women, which made me feel a bit harsh towards them, but now I learned that my bad experiences with women don't mean all women are like that.
I love the female gender. I love both cis and trans women. I dont mean it in a romantic or sexual way only. I just like women, period. Sometimes I prefer women to men even if they tend to be different from me and have different interests and hobbies. The idea that we trans men just hate ourselves and women is ridiculous. Plus, we don't go through discrimination, suffering, seeing doctors, therapists, getting hormones and surgeries and spending money and changing our bodies just to gain male privilege!!! It's absurd. It makes no sense. I am sure cis women would like to have the same privileges as men, but they'd never go through hrt and surgeries to get their bodies to be male!!!!!

The idea that i'm only trans to gain privilege is extra false for people like me, because being white, young, western and middle class i wasn't really that disadvantaged to begin with - certainly not enough to make transition some kind of easy option! in fact, i don't think i really understood misogyny until i started transitioning and started getting all this 'oh silly you're not a boy you're just a confused little girl' nonsense

Yeah, that is belittling women to call them confused little girls. On the other hand though, transwomen who transition are more likely to get physically attacked and not just called silly and confused because they were once seen as men.

They both suck, but I know I'd prefer to be called confused than attacked or shot. As a biologically-born female I have the privilege of people not wanting to kill or harm me anywhere near as much just because they think I'm a woman.

The way I (and other feminists) interpret it is that whatever is feminine is seen as negative in our (western) society. It's seen as weak, shallow and even disgusting. And it's difficult to get rid of years of brainwashing telling us that being feminine is disgusting and that men and women are not equal (no equal rights). Patriarchy and its beliefs are so deep rooted in our minds that many people act sexist without even realizing it or they might even think they are being nice. This "nice sexism" is a particularly subtle form of sexism and it's called benevolent sexism. Example: "ladies first". It's particularly hard to unmask because it is very subtle and it is considered chivalry. It assumes every woman is a delicate little flower that we all need to put on a pedestal. People might think it means considering women superior since they are told "ladies first" and other chivalrous things. Surprise! It's nothing positive.
Maybe it was nice and had a specific function in the Middle Ages where knights wanted to find their ladies and it was their way to flirt and get her to fall in love. It is a Middle Ages thing. It's gone.
No need to open a door for a woman just because she is a woman. We should open/hold doors open for everyone, regardless of gender. We should be nice to everyone and we should help anyone who could use some help. We should only get up and give our seats to old people, pregnant people and people with disabilities, but not to healthy young women just because they are women because they don't faint or die if they don't find a seat on a bus, do they? The assumption that women or more generally female bodied individuals are all delicate and whiny and weak is an incredibly sexist notion.

Obviously, a trans man who is considered a woman by others especially pre transition can experience all that sexism described above. Trans women do too. But the reason why trans women face more violent crimes is directly related to what I wrote above. What is feminine and womanly/girly is considered inferior. Transphobes, especially the sexist ones are more hostile to trans women cause they "betrayed" maleness and are feminine so they are inferior. "How dare they want to be women?" the transmisogynyst thinks. They want them to be manly. Deep inside, they hate femininity. Here is the answer to "Why do trans women tend to face more violent crimes/more violent discrimination?"

Obviously the thread focuses on trans men and feminism. I just wanted to add that notion of transmisogyny because people said trans women face more hatred. It's true. They're also more visible and also badly represented in the media. I attempted to explain why they have it worse, generally (but all trans people have it bad. Really bad).

T.K.G.W. I see what you mean but what you described fits what I said about benevolent sexism. Obviously, not everyone agrees with this perspective. Just my opinion here and the opinion of many other feminists (at least 3rd wave). It's really not a privilege to be treated like an inferior being to be protected like they can't take care of themselves. It's belittling and being treated like a child.

"Women and children first" when some tragedy happens and people need to be rescued. I always hear it. I always ask "why women first? I understand children, so it should be all children first and then men and women together after all the children are saved". Equality also means being treated like an independent human being who can take care of her/himself.

What you described about privilege of not being beaten up is tricky. It's a double-edged sword. It might feel like a privilege but in the end, it's not (see the benevolent sexism above). And unfortunately, female bodied individuals face threats and fear of rape, and that's really not a privilege. Like "corrective rape" in South Africa. I am not saying trans women don't face this too, just saying it's more likely to happen to female bodied individuals since they are seen as women by most people.

@ Peep
Same here. I am white, young and westerner (not sure about middle class, maybe I'm lower than that). Seriously, no one would go through the pain of discrimination and finding supportive people and transition and surgeries and all of that, just to gain male privilege. No one. Those TERFs or radfems are really really transphobic. They have zero understanding. Trans identities are real. Those transphobes are full of bs though. If their messed up, twisted and delusional theory was true, then there would be no trans women (who would lose male privilege?). They abuse the concept of male privilege a little bit too much and use it against tra s men. Whoever thinks we go through therapy, hormones, surgeries, misgendering, anxiety, depression and all just to get some privilege is delusional. They don't understand we have this identity and that it's not a choice, and they don't know anything about transgender people. Then they say trans women are just men who want to creep on women or invade their spaces to control them. Sometimes I think stuff like this borders on mental illness. Seriously. Not only are they evil and hate us, they also come up with absurd theories like that and have zero knowledge about what being trans really means.

Quote from: jossam on May 04, 2016, 03:32:00 PM
The way I (and other feminists) interpret it is that whatever is feminine is seen as negative in our (western) society. It's seen as weak, shallow and even disgusting. And it's difficult to get rid of years of brainwashing telling us that being feminine is disgusting and that men and women are not equal (no equal rights). Patriarchy and its beliefs are so deep rooted in our minds that many people act sexist without even realizing it or they might even think they are being nice. This "nice sexism" is a particularly subtle form of sexism and it's called benevolent sexism. Example: "ladies first". It's particularly hard to unmask because it is very subtle and it is considered chivalry. It assumes every woman is a delicate little flower that we all need to put on a pedestal. People might think it means considering women superior since they are told "ladies first" and other chivalrous things. Surprise! It's nothing positive.
Maybe it was nice and had a specific function in the Middle Ages where knights wanted to find their ladies and it was their way to flirt and get her to fall in love. It is a Middle Ages thing. It's gone.
No need to open a door for a woman just because she is a woman. We should open/hold doors open for everyone, regardless of gender. We should be nice to everyone and we should help anyone who could use some help. We should only get up and give our seats to old people, pregnant people and people with disabilities, but not to healthy young women just because they are women because they don't faint or die if they don't find a seat on a bus, do they? The assumption that women or more generally female bodied individuals are all delicate and whiny and weak is an incredibly sexist notion.

Obviously, a trans man who is considered a woman by others especially pre transition can experience all that sexism described above. Trans women do too. But the reason why trans women face more violent crimes is directly related to what I wrote above. What is feminine and womanly/girly is considered inferior. Transphobes, especially the sexist ones are more hostile to trans women cause they "betrayed" maleness and are feminine so they are inferior. "How dare they want to be women?" the transmisogynyst thinks. They want them to be manly. Deep inside, they hate femininity. Here is the answer to "Why do trans women tend to face more violent crimes/more violent discrimination?"

Obviously the thread focuses on trans men and feminism. I just wanted to add that notion of transmisogyny because people said trans women face more hatred. It's true. They're also more visible and also badly represented in the media. I attempted to explain why they have it worse, generally (but all trans people have it bad. Really bad).

T.K.G.W. I see what you mean but what you described fits what I said about benevolent sexism. Obviously, not everyone agrees with this perspective. Just my opinion here and the opinion of many other feminists (at least 3rd wave). It's really not a privilege to be treated like an inferior being to be protected like they can't take care of themselves. It's belittling and being treated like a child.

"Women and children first" when some tragedy happens and people need to be rescued. I always hear it. I always ask "why women first? I understand children, so it should be all children first and then men and women together after all the children are saved". Equality also means being treated like an independent human being who can take care of her/himself.

What you described about privilege of not being beaten up is tricky. It's a double-edged sword. It might feel like a privilege but in the end, it's not (see the benevolent sexism above). And unfortunately, female bodied individuals face threats and fear of rape, and that's really not a privilege. Like "corrective rape" in South Africa. I am not saying trans women don't face this too, just saying it's more likely to happen to female bodied individuals since they are seen as women by most people.

@ Peep
Same here. I am white, young and westerner (not sure about middle class, maybe I'm lower than that). Seriously, no one would go through the pain of discrimination and finding supportive people and transition and surgeries and all of that, just to gain male privilege. No one. Those TERFs or radfems are really really transphobic. They have zero understanding. Trans identities are real. Those transphobes are full of bs though. If their messed up, twisted and delusional theory was true, then there would be no trans women (who would lose male privilege?). They abuse the concept of male privilege a little bit too much and use it against tra s men. Whoever thinks we go through therapy, hormones, surgeries, misgendering, anxiety, depression and all just to get some privilege is delusional. They don't understand we have this identity and that it's not a choice, and they don't know anything about transgender people. Then they say trans women are just men who want to creep on women or invade their spaces to control them. Sometimes I think stuff like this borders on mental illness. Seriously. Not only are they evil and hate us, they also come up with absurd theories like that and have zero knowledge about what being trans really means.

I agree with every word of this.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

I hadn't seen this thread, but I made a video about this same thing last week:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRCqSMaxq2c

QuoteThey want them to be manly. Deep inside, they hate femininity.

I don't know what a transphobe is thinking in their head. But I could just as easily wonder that it's not women they hate, but men deviating from the prescribed behavior. If they really hated women, if this really was a super-misogynist society, then being a misogynist would be expected and celebrated. That's not what I see out there, since "misogynist" is clearly an insult these days. Being accused of raping a woman can ruin a man's reputation and life forever. Being a wife-beater is not applauded but considered disgusting behavior where I live. I mean if society was truly an abjectly woman-hating society, we wouldn't have women in government ever because they wouldn't allow it. They wouldn't be allowing women into the armed forces like they are beginning to now. They wouldn't be trying to help women get careers in STEM or allowing them into universities. They just wouldn't tolerate women doing so many things they are allowed and actually encouraged to do, in lots of countries now. If they hated femininity, why would they punish the man but continue to allow the woman to express it? Why wouldn't they demand women act and dress more like men?

So I think the idea they just hate femininity by default is a stretch. Men not wanting to act like women, or other men not approving of men acting like women doesn't automatically mean they just hate women. Does women not wanting to act like men mean they hate men?

What they don't like is the crossing or blurring of the 'line' between.

QuoteIf they really hated women, if this really was a super-misogynist society, then being a misogynist would be expected and celebrated.

We're not Iran or Saudi Arabia, of course. I wasn't exaggerating like that. But we still have issues with women. Some people do celebrate misogyny, like telling and laughing at rape jokes, like saying rape victims were looking for it or not believing them, etc.

QuoteBeing accused of raping a woman can ruin a man's reputation and life forever.

Never as bad as a woman getting raped and getting PTSD, depression and other pretty bad stuff. Do you ever think about their lives that get ruined? Sure, false accusations happen, but it's more likely that a woman is not believed or taken seriously by society when she reports rape (especially if it's her husband or if she's a sex worker or if she wears revealing clothes), or blamed for a rape. It happens more than falsely accusing a man of raping someone. I'm aware of mean, maybe even psychopathic women doing that kind of stuff, but it's not a huge problem and usually, the "this man's reputation got ruined" argument is used by groups like MRA.

QuoteI mean if society was truly an abjectly woman-hating society, we wouldn't have women in government ever because they wouldn't allow it. They wouldn't be allowing women into the armed forces like they are beginning to now. They wouldn't be trying to help women get careers in STEM or allowing them into universities. They just wouldn't tolerate women doing so many things they are allowed and actually encouraged to do, in lots of countries now.

That's extreme. I wasn't talking about extreme cases. I'm not aware of women being helped get STEM careers, they have to earn them just like everybody else. Also, remember these things happened because of feminism pushing for rights. We weren't always like that, our society has evolved a lot since the ancient times. I'm sure you know how women couldn't vote, and in my country they were allowed to vote after WW2. So we evolved, but some bad habits are hard to defeat. But you can't really scream "full equality exists" when for example 70 women vs 300 men are in a parliament, or when people say Hillary Clinton can't be president cause women can't be good leaders, or when a woman gets paid less for the same job a man does. I'm not saying we're so backward like the catastrophic examples you mentioned (but we were like that up until not so long ago). I'm just saying sexism is still very real even in western socities, although it's not as bad as other societies, obviously! But while our laws made men and women equal, they aren't always applied. And I wasn't even talking about laws, I was talking about general social attitudes, like sexually harassing women, catcalling, treating them like sex objects, acting like they owe men sex and acting like women exist to pleasure men (all the nakedness, not to mention derogatory porn), and all the sexist slurs that people use all the time. It's a cultural thing, and it's not going away. I WAS LIKE THAT. I WAS THAT KIND OF GUY. So I know exactly how sexist men think and act. I wasn't consciously doing it though, I just live in a pretty sexist area, and add this to my poor social skills and you get a pretty shady guy. Now I learned what respect for women is and I stand up for their rights - not just legal, but cultural and social too, so I'm not an ass anymore.

OP - there are groups of feminists like TERFs and many radfems that don't really like us trans guys. One of the things I'd like to hear when talking about trans men and feminism is that those groups are only groups of transphobes and they're also just like any other hate group (because they promote hatred, not equality), and should have no place in feminism now. And then well, me and other people addressed other issues so I already wrote about certain topics in other posts.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on May 04, 2016, 02:29:10 PM
Yeah, that is belittling women to call them confused little girls. On the other hand though, transwomen who transition are more likely to get physically attacked and not just called silly and confused because they were once seen as men.

They both suck, but I know I'd prefer to be called confused than attacked or shot. As a biologically-born female I have the privilege of people not wanting to kill or harm me anywhere near as much just because they think I'm a woman.

Wait, but if femmephobia doesn't exist, and people don't hate femininity, why is there a disproportionate amount of violence towards trans women as opposed to trans men? If it was only 'blurring' that was feared and hated, surely it would be equal?

People get more hostile when it's amab people having female roles and being feminine (effeminate gay men get more hate than masculine gay men) because they "gave up their masculinity" and emnraced femininity which is inferior according to them.

Quote from: jossam on May 04, 2016, 09:58:49 PM
"Being accused of raping a woman can ruin a man's reputation and life forever."

Never as bad as a woman getting raped and getting PTSD, depression and other pretty bad stuff. Do you ever think about their lives that get ruined? Sure, false accusations happen, but it's more likely that a woman is not believed or taken seriously by society when she reports rape (especially if it's her husband or if she's a sex worker or if she wears revealing clothes), or blamed for a rape. It happens more than falsely accusing a man of raping someone. I'm aware of mean, maybe even psychopathic women doing that kind of stuff, but it's not a huge problem and usually, the "this man's reputation got ruined" argument is used by groups like MRA.

To me a life ruined is a life ruined. I heard of a man who was almost beaten to death when he was falsely accused of rape, sounds like a problem to me.  Plus rape isn't a women's only issue, anyone can get raped, many people don't think men can be raped (because they are men, and of course men always want sex and they just didn't know they wanted it *sarcasm) and men being raped it is often a joke used in western media. Trans/intersex people are often blamed for there rape (not for how they are dressed) but solely because were trans/intersex.

Just because you care about women's right doesn't mean you can't care about men's, trans's or intersex's rights. we are all people on this earth a deserve to feel safe and loved.

Quote from: Peep on May 05, 2016, 07:39:48 AM
Wait, but if femmephobia doesn't exist, and people don't hate femininity, why is there a disproportionate amount of violence towards trans women as opposed to trans men? If it was only 'blurring' that was feared and hated, surely it would be equal?

I didn't say femmephobia doesn't exist or that some people don't hate femininity. I said that transphobes probably didn't automatically hate women as the reason they don't like trans people, or the reason they don't like to see what they think is a man dressing/acting/speaking like a woman.

And to answer this, because those people are not acknowledging transwomen as women. Same reason the bathroom bills expect them to use male toilets and risk violence in there. They see transwomen as men trying to be women; if they did see transwomen as the same as cis women I doubt there would be a larger amount of violence toward them. And by the same token they see transmen as women and not 'real' men. All the brooahaha lately about the bathroom issue shows quite transparently that many people pushing for it see transwomen merely as men trying to invade a 'female space'.

Because they are still seen as male by such people, disproportionate violence toward them is seen because typically violence toward men is more socially acceptable. Trans men sometimes have this happen to them, but less often; in the case of some "corrective rape" is used as a punishment (Brandon Teena for example) strongly suggesting those attackers saw him as a woman, not a man. They also killed him, I know; but the numbers/risk for being violently attacked and/or killed for being FTM are significantly lower than that for MTF.

In short, transwomen are not attacked because they are seen as women and because people hate femininity. It's because society at large does not yet see them as women, and because men typically suffer greater levels of violence in society that is considered acceptable for them. They're attacked because people tend to see them as men, not women, doing something they deem inappropriate for men to do. And because people see men as a threat, and not women as a threat. And because people care less when men suffer violence than when women do.

QuoteJust because you care about women's right doesn't mean you can't care about men's, trans's or intersex's rights. we are all people on this earth a deserve to feel safe and loved.

Word.

I care about everyone's rights. I just don't see the need to "defend men's rights" (specifically men's rights, I mean) since it's not men who weren't allowed to study, work, vote, be in politics, be leaders. It's not men who are seen as pieces of meat and sex objects and objects of catcalling and street harassment and who get paid less and who are told they are inferior. Guys, let's be honest here for one second. Acknowledging that sexism and misogyny exist DOES NOT mean we go against our own gender (male). Not at all. We can all be better men and be nice to women.

I agree that those people see trans women as men trying to invade female space and this is why they get attacked more. So yeah, this is pure transphobia. But it's also true that IN GENERAL people do have femmephobia and sexism. Terms like "acting like a pussy", "pussified" said to men are highly humiliating to those men because they're seen as weak and this kills their masculinity and it makes them feel like they are being invalidated (it happened to me once cause apparently I wasn't acting macho enough for those people) and humiliating to women too cause it implies all women fear their own shadows and that they're all little fragile beings.

I know rape is everyone's issue, but the numbers are disproportionate. Men get raped too, of course. And women rape too. I don't deny it. But no one can deny MOST victims of rape and sexual violence in general are women and girls.
Too bad society does not encourage men to report rapes and domestic abuse. But that's because of the stupid gender roles and the notion that men can't be victims and that women can't be threats because they're all delicate flowers. Well. The type of feminism I believe in promotes equal rights and equal duties.

In a nutshell....sexism hurts everyone. Every gender. Yes it hurts us guys too, cause they want us to be a certain way and if we fail to be that way then we are labeled as weak and "pussies". And this is why everyone needs feminism. Not misandry, not the misandry of radfems, but honest, egalitarian feminism. It includes saying women can be dangerous too and that men can be victims of women too (especially of emotional abuse like I was).

At a feminist conference where they also talk about trans people I would like to hear someone say tht trans men do not belong in women only spaces as we are not women. And they should NEVER be in any lesbian group, again, because we are not women. Being ibcluded in a women only space or lesbian space would be extremely insulting to me.
But those women only spaces should include trans women because they are women.

So unless it's some specific health situation like going to a gyn (if we still have certain organs) we should never be in "women only spaces". This means all those social events for women only or whatever is restricted and allows women only. Include trans women, not trans men. Seriously. This  trans men inclusion in women only spaces is insulting to us and transphobic.

Quote from: jossam on May 07, 2016, 07:54:56 PM
I know rape is everyone's issue, but the numbers are disproportionate. Men get raped too, of course. And women rape too. I don't deny it. But no one can deny MOST victims of rape and sexual violence in general are women and girls.
Too bad society does not encourage men to report rapes and domestic abuse. But that's because of the stupid gender roles and the notion that men can't be victims and that women can't be threats because they're all delicate flowers. Well. The type of feminism I believe in promotes equal rights and equal duties.

This - and i think it's wrong that male rape victims are almost always mentioned only as a counter to women's rights. i'd like to see more people talking about this issue on its own, not in a 'men get raped too' sense. It shouldn't be a case of looking at a culture that hides and denies male rape, and one that excuses female rape, as a question of which is worse, but as two different (but connected) problematic cultures that can be addressed without sidelining one or the other

As for the bathroom laws and female spaces, has anyone else noticed that bathrooms seem to be the only safe space that women are allowed to have? Whenever anyone talks about female safe spaces elsewhere, it's always 'not all men' and 'reverse sexism'. No one supporting those laws is interested in women having safe spaces; they're interested in using the 'threat' of trans women as a trojan horse to discriminate against all LGBTQIA people.

Quote from: Peep on May 08, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
i think it's wrong that male rape victims are almost always mentioned only as a counter to women's rights.

I don't think disusing male victims of rape can be used to invalidates female victims. Unless you are saying that it is OK to rape people because anyone can be raped, which I have never heard anyone say ever. Some people are happy to ignore non-female victims and when I hear "but its worse for women" or "your counter to women's rights" it shows me people don't care about the entire issue. If feminism is truly about gender equality (and it should be) you should talk about all genders.

Quote from: Peep on May 08, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
I'd like to see more people talking about this issue on its own, not in a 'men get raped too' sense. It shouldn't be a case of looking at a culture that hides and denies male rape, and one that excuses female rape, as a question of which is worse

You don't need to categories rape by gender to talk about it. rape is rape, it is the same issue but different people. if I hear people ignoring non-female victims I'll bring it up. Also your forgetting trans (non-gender and bi-gender people) and intersex people that identify as intersex, they need discussed too. 

Quote from: Peep on May 08, 2016, 12:44:02 PM
As for the bathroom laws and female spaces, has anyone else noticed that bathrooms seem to be the only safe space that women are allowed to have?

I have never considered bathroom a "safe place." I consider it a place to use the bathroom, wash my hands and check my makeup/hair. Nor have I ever considered bathroom a single gender place, I see children and disabled/elderly people with caregivers in opposite gender bathroom or people that make a mistake and walk into the wrong room all the time.


I'm not looking to change the way that I purse equality and you probably are not either, I guess we will have to agree to disagree and try not to start a war here.

Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 08, 2016, 02:24:55 PM
I don't think disusing male victims of rape can be used to invalidates female victims. Unless you are saying that it is OK to rape people because anyone can be raped, which I have never heard anyone say ever. Some people are happy to ignore non-female victims and when I hear "but its worse for women" or "your counter to women's rights" it shows me people don't care about the entire issue. If feminism is truly about gender equality (and it should be) you should talk about all genders.

You don't need to categories rape by gender to talk about it. rape is rape, it is the same issue but different people. if I hear people ignoring non-female victims I'll bring it up. Also your forgetting trans (non-gender and bi-gender people) and intersex people that identify as intersex, they need discussed too.


I'm not looking to change the way that I purse equality and you probably are not either, I guess we will have to agree to disagree and try not to start a war here.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I would think rape is okay because anyone can get raped. :/

I'm not talking about what should be, I'm talking about attitudes that i have observed that shouldn't exist. I've rarely seen the statement 'men get raped', it's almost always, 'men get raped too'. Discussing male victims of rape shouldn't be used to invalidate female victims, but it often is particularly online - 'Women get raped' 'Men get raped too, so let's stop talking about it' is the attitude. It's different from just wanting to continue the conversation while including non-female victims. I don't support this attitude, but it does exist.

As for categorising by gender, I mean that cultural attitudes towards rape of feminine and masculine people are different, and so to tackle these problematic attitudes, they do need to be seen as different. For example, the different reasons why a cis man might not report being raped (e.g. toxic masculinity and fear of being seen as weak/ the fact that people don't believe that men CAN be raped) vs reasons why a cis woman wouldn't (e.g. victim blaming/ 'spoiled goods' attitude). Similarly rape in a trans or intersex context is often different. Talking about rape as a blanket issue is not detailed enough, rape culture won't be tackled by simplifying the issues in order to have a gender neutral discourse.

And yeah i generalised to binary people, my bad.

Quote from: CrazyCatMan on May 08, 2016, 02:24:55 PM
Unless you are saying that it is OK to rape people because anyone can be raped, which I have never heard anyone say ever

Quote from: Peep on May 08, 2016, 03:05:34 PM
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I would think rape is okay because anyone can get raped. :/

Sorry poorly worded sentence, what I meant by "You" was "people that bring up male victims of rape" not, "you" as in you yourself. silly English language. I don't think any healthy minded person thinks rape is a OK thing to do.

" unless a person that brings up the topic of male victims of rape says that it is OK to rape people because anyone can be raped,  then I don't believe bringing up male victims of rape invalidated female victims"

This is what I ment.

Feminism focuses on women. Sure it promotes equality but it focuses on women, or sometimes it could be expanded to afab people of any gender (if we talk about bodies only).
However, feminist theories do help men too. No more discrimination against effeminate guys, no more discrimination against men who don't fit the stereotypical gender roles.
But feminism is not about men, so when men say "it happens to men too" or "what about the men?" it can be seen as hostile, as a way to invade a place that focuses on women's specific issues and rights.
Otherwise it wouldn't be called feminism.

Yes men do get raped too but the reasons why it happens are usually different from when the same thing happens to a woman or afab trans person who is seen by others as a woman.
Rape culture is about using the female body as an object, it's about seeing it as an object of pleasure that can be violated any time and according to them it is ok to do it, or they even joke about it, or threaten someone, or they even justify rape. It's a power thing that stems from that one big source: sexism.

And mind you, sexism can affect trans men too especially the ones pre everything who are not out to everyone. If we are seen as women by people (either because they don't know about our actual gender or because they know it but don't accept it)
we can face sexism too (in addition to transphobia).
So feminism can help trans men too. But it can help cis men too (the ones who are not oppressive and sexist).

And feminism should fight more for trans women's rights and inclusion in women only spaces. Trans women belong to those spaces (unlike trans men).

Quote from: jossam on May 09, 2016, 08:08:33 AM
Feminism focuses on women.

I'm a liberal feminist (and I and many others) believe that feminism is about the rights of all genders not just women. To me even if you solve one issue temporally it means nothing if you don't solve the whole issue because the issue will return.

the problem is that feminism is a very loosely defined, and there is many sub-groups that disagree on the definition of feminism, issues and how equality should be achieved. gender feminist, radical feminist, liberal feminist, economic feminist etc. often don't get along with eachother. I have seen and unfortunately gotten involved in in-fighting before.

I got into argument with a gender feminist they said that the "only way to achieve equality was to abolish the concept of sex and gender and that trans people were the enemy of equality" Don't know what their goal was in going up to a trans person and saying they were preventing equality was but it ended in a argument

Got in another argument with a economic feminist told me homemakers and stay at home parents were "kitchen slaves." As a person from a line of furiously proud homemakers/stay at home parents and as a Home Economics Education student and aspiring stay at home parent I did take kindly to the statement.

unfortunately this happen in every civil rights group, and probably will happen as long as there are civil rights groups. I try to except the difference in points of view but passion can run very close to the surface.