comumunication without words is easy...
and i feel i share a bond with other girls. Try being male, and starting a random conversation with a random bloke... doesnt happen. Thats what i like about being a girl, people just are more friendly, other girls, and boys. Could just be my generation, but i certainly feel quite connected to my peers. one time i went to get some pads and painkillers for a girlfriend having a paticularly bad totm, and the girl in the shop just broke into a periods conversation with me... didnt know her, never seen her,but we had something to talk about together... a male shop assistant wouldnt give a crap if he was in her place, or the shopper was a guy...
R

How old are you Rachael?
Both me and Mawd are well...younger.  I am 29, Mawd I think is 19. 
I think the perspective you are talking about is very common among older trans women.  The idea that women are a singular collective culture. 

The "be yourself" idea is often one that is common among those who are younger.  We are also more likely to see social and cultural divides among women.  As somebody stated here in the most extreme example, there are massive cultural divides that do exist.  As much as you see a common bond I just see casual social interactions.   

Maybe this comes from being a city girl. 

20....






LOL

i didnt say singular culture, i said women can communicate together far more easily than males, because we share a cause womankind Yeah im a bit of a social feminist, and i really dont give a rats behind irl, it just seems interesting to theorise on the internet.
shows how much attention youve been paying to me to assume me a middleaged woman ROFL im just glad your not a cop.
where did you get this 'be yourself' concept? i personally enjoy my life, i have a rich social life, and many friends and im popular. a little social theorising is fun. and i guess it helps if youve socilaised with females on a girl girl level, not, girl ->-bleeped-<- level


R >

I agree, a few incidents are not a not the stuff of universal law.  And far from extreme, that's a pretty everyday deal in a major city where people use public transit to have very different types of people in the same place, or at least, crossing paths.  And, a lot of that same stuff exists among guys.  Your friend is the person who will tell you the truth, even when you don't want to hear it is true beyond gender, and often, across genders.  Guys start random conversations with each other all the time.  You are just not seeing it. Sometimes common or shared conditions give rise to that bonding also, people who live in a world where its 'them' and everyone else is a 'civilian' - military sure, but its true for circus people also.  And the real cultural divides often preclude all that.  Do you think you would share that bonding with a woman of color?  Or one who lived in a traditional Islamic culture?

unlike past generations, skin colour, and religion dont register in my eyes. defining them as differnet only perpetuates bigotry and separation and BREAKS any commonality.
R

Good for you, such thoughts and values are not universal however, which makes those differences very real to many.  My crews are men and women, afro, white, hispanic, gay, straight, trans, ranging in education from HS to graduate school and ranging in age from 18 to 60 - yet the shared experience of what we do, and the life we have choose seems to trump all of that for the most part.  I know that is not how is is for everyone, or everywhere though.

Quote from: Rachael on January 08, 2008, 03:23:36 PM
20....






LOL

i didnt say singular culture, i said women can communicate together far more easily than males, because we share a cause womankind Yeah im a bit of a social feminist, and i really dont give a rats behind irl, it just seems interesting to theorise on the internet.
shows how much attention youve been paying to me to assume me a middleaged woman ROFL im just glad your not a cop.
where did you get this 'be yourself' concept? i personally enjoy my life, i have a rich social life, and many friends and im popular. a little social theorising is fun. and i guess it helps if youve socilaised with females on a girl girl level, not, girl ->-bleeped-<- level


R >

I am socialized.  Like I said.  Its different everywhere.  Also remember...general names around here sometimes repeat themselves, so its easy for me to forget who is who (especially when I go by icon recognition to distinguish people).
The be yourself concept...that both me and mawd are talking about is fairly common. 

You are right CERTAIN women can communicate far more easily with each other then men, but last I checked you were in the UK, which is far more monolithic culturally.  I know Mawd's in the UK too.  But when there is dozens of subcultural groups that you face in the US, along with linguistic and deep cultural subdivides...that "common" experience fades pretty quickly. When most people are white and speak English its a little different then living in DC (or NYC, or any major American city).  Thank you Tekla.  You get it too.  Of course I can tell you, like me, live in a large US city and use public transit.  Perspectives change when you are exposed to near constant diversity.

Trust me I am a feminist, but not one who is socially feminist.  The "womankind" concept falls apart when faced with a diverse and multi-cultural population, sometimes with drastically different social norms.  Its probably less apparent in the UK where there is a more monolithic culture even among women.  Sharing a common bond often requires cultural similarities or at the very least a shared experience. 

Girl ->-bleeped-<- level.  God whats with you UK folks and use of disparaging terms, and you talk about bigotry. 

Please remember...America has cultural and subcultural divides even within ethnicities.

Of course I socialized with women on a girl girl level.  But I also realize its not always possible because of barriers of language and culture.  Tekla gets this.  Any woman who lives in a large US city gets this.  These shared common experiences only happen when on some level you can communicate. Yes its easier to talk to other women, but not always many things can play a factor, and its not always race or ethnicity.  Sometimes its purely expression. 

i couldnt be bothered hyphonating it, and transsexual woman takes too long to write... so sue me...
but its true, if you arnt entirely girl to most women, they will respect you, but not admit you.

and you cleary know nothing about the uk.... its more ethinically, and religiously diverse than your clultural United states of america... (mainly because we  dont tramp around the world pissing people off)
as for your 'be yourself' concept, works fine, but can end up with 'yourself' not fitting in, and if you want to exist in this society, we all must make some sacrifices, want acceptance? accept some rules.
the world does not revolve around you

and mauds my friend btw, you dont have to tell me what shes like.
R

 There are a few practical issues that can be more pertinent for women.

         1) Take your keys out of your purse when walking to your car. You don't want to be standing in the dark and unable to find them

         2) Be cognizant of who pulls up beside you at traffic lights at night.
         3) Don't ride around on near empty
         4) Try to keep your cell phone with sufficient charge.
         5) If you must have a listed phone, use initials
         6) Don't get a personalized plate that screems FEMALE!

    Women usually learn this stuff at an early age. Some T-Girls never.   

I just got back today - last night late really - from being up in Tahoe to ski the freshens.  There were four of us who went up to try to beat the storm, and we did.  There were two girls, two boys (to the degree I count as a boy).  One of the girls was an old friend of mine, who I went to HS with and we have been skiing for over 35 years together, the other was a union sister who I've been working with for five or so years now.  They could not be further apart.  One, from what counts as old money here, whose family owns one of the oldest wineries in the Sonoma Valley, a graduate of Stanford, University of Chicago and Boalt Hall at the University of California in Berkeley in law.  The other, 25, from a poor family, who was on the tour bus at 19 (as hard a life as any girl can have) and one of the top stagehands I have ever known.  Despite being stuck together in the backseat of a Subaru Outback for more than five hours they didn't seem to bond very well.  There was no "we are girls" deal going on.

When we got to Tahoe, and got to the tekla family cabin (a house really) we lost power within the first hour.  For two days, as ten feet of snow fell, and winds hit 70+ mph on the valley floor, and over 140+ mph up on the high peeks, we had no power.  But we have a fireplace, and a gas stove, so we ate well and were warm (3 season sleeping bags help).  And, of course with no electronic amusement we kind of had to amuse ourselves.  So we played cards, cooked, even shoot some skeet in a break between fronts (in the US we don't play with toy guns, we have real ones).  And gradually they warmed to each other.

Perhaps it was the sense that we were in it together.  Perhaps it was Ivy showing Maria (are all Italian girls named Marie or Maria?) how to work the Ipod her kids gave her for xmas.  Perhaps it was Maria's most excellent cooking (and a case of her families' best product).  But there was no 'instant bonding' as woman.  Perhaps its different in the UK. 

The skiing was good - as good as I've ever had, but the older I get, the more I love it.  Real powder in the Sierra  is as rare as water in the Sahara, so that was nice.  And Ivy and Ed went off on their boards, Maria and me on our skis, and we met a few times a day for a wine break, and for lunch (cell phones are the best ski accessory since the invention of the glove).  And on the third day, the two girls, one on a board, one on skis went off together for the afternoon (Ed took off with some babe he met, and I skied the trees because only I'm that crazy).  But it took five days for that to happen.  There was nothing instant about it.  Sharing a set of genitals is not some alpha and omega deal that crosses all other borders, all other boundaries, or any other class, education, upbringing, career, or values deal.  Not at all. 

And I talked with them - in fact we all talked about it one night over a few bottles of Blanc de Noir, because I could read the posts here on the Iphone, but not respond to them.  So the difference in genders, and in gender perception is a good topic when everyone gets to the In Vino Veritas point.  And that was a most revealing (as most such conversations are) evening.

But, oddly enough I think it was the skeet.  Which is sort of a guy deal.  After all, I've been shooting since I was a kid, and Ed's dad was a general in the US Army, so no stranger to firearms is he.  But Maria's dad - because its such an idle rich rural deal, was a three times national skeet champion, and she is awesome (98% type good).  Ivy, being a vegan hippie type had never held a gun in her life before that afternoon.  It was Maria teaching Ivy to shoot that really brought them together, not the fact that they both have periods.



As for: "its more ethinically, and religiously diverse than your clultural United states of america" ... your kidding right?  There are neighborhoods in NYC and LA, or Miami that are more diverse than anywhere else in the world.

your culture is far too full of guns, and trivialises them to a scary level... but thats not what this topic is about.
Must be different with young women, as opposed to middle aged women *shrugs*
plus your all mature with your own lives, the bonding isnt the same. I know its VERY different when in college...

and yeah, youve probably not been to the uk... your 'ghettos' are more socially integrated here as communities. We have pakistani, indian, asian, eastern european, Kurdish, Iranian, lebanise, sommali, african, and  many other communities within the uk... thats just national, we havent gone near religious yet

also, Ricki: whats wrong with a girly vanityl plate? because i know a LOT of girls with girly vanity plates... do ya think the girlweb didnt send the memo out to them yet?
Those are sensible yes, but not all learned by women....
oh yeah, if your going out, some emergency money pinned under your skirt, or in your bra works a wonder (I KNOW i always need it ><
R

Dear Rachel, you are the one posing with guns in the "bored people post pictures" thread.  Kids pose with guns, adults only own them and use them.  I don't know anyone who thinks they are trivial, they are all too real in our culture.  They are tools, not props.

College, perhaps I don't know, after all, how much time could I have spent in one?

You ain't even beginning to cross cultures if that's all you got.  We have that, and more.  Depends on where you are.  The US is a pretty big place after all.  Your nation would only be a mid-level state here.  Not a minor point.

I've been to the UK several times, as a student, as a tourist, and as crew.  Five times in total.  How much time have you spent in the US?

Quoteand you cleary know nothing about the uk.... its more ethinically, and religiously diverse than your clultural United states of america... (mainly because we  dont tramp around the world pissing people off)

Even though I agree that we piss the world off doing dumb crap all the time, I still have to say. . . oh shoot, when did we have to bring in the politics and try and depict what country is more diverse religiously and ethnically? 

got me, I thought that we had that one pegged long ago

Quote from: Rachael on January 08, 2008, 08:32:49 PM


and yeah, youve probably not been to the uk... your 'ghettos' are more socially integrated here as communities. We have pakistani, indian, asian, eastern european, Kurdish, Iranian, lebanise, sommali, african, and  many other communities within the uk... thats just national, we havent gone near religious yet

Seriously if you think you have the diversity you have in the US you are fooling yourself and have never spent significant time here. The UK has never even been as close to ethnically or religiously diverse as the US, and yes I have been there for an extensive period as a student.   You just described both neighborhoods I lived in the DC area, in that every nationality and ethnicity you just put forth, lived in those two neighborhoods, on top of massive latino populations here that are not really common in Europe.  On top of that Mt. Pleasant, which is described as the mini-UN, is also home to a large queer and professional population. 

I have been to the UK.  Its not that diverse, and I am talking about the cities in the UK too, not the country.  The cities in the UK are not even close in comparison to the cities in the US in terms of diversity.  So this is speaking from a perspective where I have been to both countries.  If you think the US is just white guys with guns, it is VERY obvious you have never been here.    Europe is just begining to deal with issues of diversity that have been part of the US for years.  There has been long articles on how people from different ethnicities tend to socially integrate much faster in the US then they do in Europe, including the UK. 

As far as the UK not pissing people off.  Last time I checked it was British and French imperialism of the 19th and 20th century that was at the heart of most of the worlds instability in addition to the American imperialism that followed after world war II. 

Generally speaking you are right, if you don't come off as female to most women, they will respect you but not admit you, and honestly many will not even respect you.  But that is not completely cultural.  You are right one can be themselves and not fit in at all.  The be yourself concept only works so far and for so many people, and they honestly do not come off as female.  But do I feel pressure to be ultra feminine.  Far from it, it simply is not me. I think that is what I meant by be yourself.  I am a bi woman that comes off as a femme dyke or honestly your college professor (taking I am a research analyst in the beltway I am not to far off from that).  Seriously speaking I question those who transition who have difficulty transitioning socially.  To me it came natural, thus be yourself seems to be the best description of what to do, and some of the things that were put forth just seem irrelevant from my particular perspective. 

The truth is knowing the non-verbal cues such as knowing when to smile is very important, but outside of that its difficult to judge, because every group of women I have encountered is very different.  Maybe because most of my friends are the intellectual dinner party type, the ultra nerdy women, and the indie/artsy women who regular craft fairs and rock shows, and they are out their core very different from each other and even more so then the ones I go see clubbing or suburbanite  moms.  Yes, there are some common topics of conversation with all three, but I would not say there is a common culture.  Women are all a little bit different from each other and there are cultural divides at times.  Even my roommate, who was born female, expresses how she shares nothing in common with what she describes as "suburban soccer moms" and cannot hold a conversation for her life with them.  She has no interest in other peoples kids or the things suburbanite women talk about.    But she, like me is a bi woman who lives in a downtown area.  You encounter the divisions when you are older though, not when you are younger.  You realize outside of common courtesy women don't always share that much with each other all the time.  There is various differences and constant change. 

Yes...this may be because you are seeing things from the perspective of a college student from the UK, or honestly a college student anywhere.  Most of the women I spend time with are well into their late twenties and early thirties.  Its different socially for those who are past the college age.     

The truth is be yourself has limits, if you really do not come off as female to begin with.  So I guess you are right about that.  I don't really see there being rules, just things that come pretty naturally.

Quote from: shanetastic on January 09, 2008, 01:03:48 AM

Quoteand you cleary know nothing about the uk.... its more ethinically, and religiously diverse than your clultural United states of america... (mainly because we  dont tramp around the world pissing people off)

Even though I agree that we piss the world off doing dumb crap all the time, I still have to say. . . oh shoot, when did we have to bring in the politics and try and depict what country is more diverse religiously and ethnically? 

I agree, we've all got a history for pissing someone off anyway, we just take turns, lol. 

These kind of arguments get nowhere....


women love smells, all the good kinds - flowers, perfume, babies etc. 

not all women love smells....
i admit my sense of smell is broader thesedays, but i dont paticularly like the smell of babies any more... (thier pooey!)

and yeah, i pose with guns... so what? i happen to look awesome in one of those photos... i know im not an adult... IM IN COLLEGE...
and youd pose if you had the body
R

20, and in college are considered adult - here at least.  But I think that people really become adults when they are able to make important decisions about their own life, and accept the responsibility and consequences for those decisions, which for some happens when they are 14, and for others, never.

Growing old is compulsory
growing up is optional.
i may kid around, and enjoy myself now, but ive had to mature WAY before my time... and suffered things children arnt meant to...
dont tell me how to act, its my life, and im happy, and you are some random... so gtfo...
R

I have a funny story, I was at Wally World (walmart) one day, walking past the feminine product isle, out of the blue some lady close to my age standing there reading a box of tampons, she ask "have you ever tried these?" I was stunned at first looked at the box and said "yes" took a box off the shelf tossed it in my buggy and continued walking