Quote from: Kate on January 08, 2008, 12:12:54 PM

Quote from: Amy T. on January 08, 2008, 11:53:21 AM
By the way most doctors do not start out on a mix of methods.  They all seem to have their own crazy idea as to what works. 

A personal theory of mine from what I've seen... and yes, pure IMHO and speculation... is that dosage changes are what cause bursts in development. Someone goes to their doc and complains nothing is happening anymore, the doc switches them from pills to shots, they start developing again, and HEY! INJECTIONS ARE BETTER! When in fact it's not the method, but rather the dosage change that "shocks" the body back into motion.

And vice-versa, from injections to patches or pills.

Pure speculation though.

~Kate~

Normal puberty has its peaks and vallieys of development as well.  Its the same argument for waiting to get a boob job, just becuase you think your body has stopped developing, doesn't mean it has.  It may just be a latent period.

Ask any teenage girl...

Quote from: Keira on January 08, 2008, 09:32:53 AM
Kalt, that's what sublingual does and means, going into the bloodstream, how on earth do you think the estrogen gets into the body there!! That does not need a study, that's the mode of action of sublingual, micronised estradiol valerate gets absorbed there because there because the area is so vascularized and the blood vessels are so close to the surface of the skin. There are few areas like that, the lower intestinal tract is another one, and that's why its used for suppositories. The medication of suppositories is not digested, its absorbed into the bloodstream directly. That's why progeterone capsule are more efficient as suppositories than swallowed. Its the swallowed thing that's less effective.

If you're so upset about it, go get the info yourself.

I'm upset by the fact that you do not distinguish things that need full scientific
scrutiny from things that do not.

Things that would need a study is finding out how much people swallow when using sublinguals.
That's now known specifically, but its higher than 0%;.

Actually, you're wrong on this.  Just because something sounds good in theory doesn't mean it actually works.

There really are studies needed on this to support it, surely if it worked so well then there would be!

As is, even in my profession in a pharmacy, I don't see any distinction between the two.

Posted on: January 08, 2008, 09:14:02 PM

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Quote from: Kate on January 08, 2008, 12:12:54 PM

Quote from: Amy T. on January 08, 2008, 11:53:21 AM
By the way most doctors do not start out on a mix of methods.  They all seem to have their own crazy idea as to what works. 

A personal theory of mine from what I've seen... and yes, pure IMHO and speculation... is that dosage changes are what cause bursts in development. Someone goes to their doc and complains nothing is happening anymore, the doc switches them from pills to shots, they start developing again, and HEY! INJECTIONS ARE BETTER! When in fact it's not the method, but rather the dosage change that "shocks" the body back into motion.

And vice-versa, from injections to patches or pills.

Pure speculation though.

~Kate~

It makes a lot of sense though.  The body develops tolerances in all sorts of areas.  I know this to be ESPECIALLY true with weight lifting, muscle and strength development.  The human body is naturally adaptive, can't help it.

Posted on: January 08, 2008, 09:17:46 PM

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Quote from: Keira on January 08, 2008, 03:28:16 PM

Did you swallow the pills or use them sublingually? (this would have
a major impact on effectiveness)

Once again, I'm opposing this and demanding evidence if it's going to be stated as fact.

The simple fact is that if sublingual drastically changed the effectiveness of the medication or increased the potency then doctors would be very careful about the method being taken, and so would pharmacies, not only out of concern for proper dosage but also to cover their asses against a lawsuit.  It doesn't fit that the top minds in the medical industry and pharmaceutical facilities would ignore such a severe danger, of someone taking 10MG of ambien and sticking it under their tongue and ODing on it or something.

And while we're on topic, let's get into it a bit further.

Are the little yellow spironolactone pills better absorbed sublingually or orally?  Because lemme tell you, that mint taste is both overpowering and yet amazingly bitter.  What about estradiol, or provera?  Since you're trying to get it into the blood stream, wouldn't putting a drop or two of a strong alcohol like scotch help increase the blood flow through the tongue, making it more effective?  What about the skin under the tongue thickening due to regular chemical exposure?

It's a lot to think about.

You are aggravating Kalt!!!!

Table 3-5 answer all your answers. Took me 10 minutes to find it with google.

Everything I said was TRUE. So THERE.


http://books.google.com/books?id=6vUUW6ymVFEC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=sublingual+versus+stomach+absorbtion+medecine&source=web&ots=aO_ScxoRpW&sig=WMJOrBOSPrkcuSYO44n7kCB8bGE


Next time, do the job yourself. Because now, I AM UPSET!!!

Quote from: Keira on January 08, 2008, 08:49:13 PM

You are aggravating Kalt!!!!

Table 3-5 answer all your answers. Took me 10 minutes to find it with google.

Everything I said was TRUE. So THERE.


http://books.google.com/books?id=6vUUW6ymVFEC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=sublingual+versus+stomach+absorbtion+medecine&source=web&ots=aO_ScxoRpW&sig=WMJOrBOSPrkcuSYO44n7kCB8bGE


Next time, do the job yourself. Because now, I AM UPSET!!!

I'm sorry you're upset that I asked you to support your claims.  But, YOU were the one who was making them, not me.

I have looked and looked, and this thing is pretty vague on sublingual absortion except when it gets to about page 108, when it shows through context that there are medicines DESIGNED to be taken sublingually, such as buccal tabs or droplets, oral sprays and chewing gums.  It doesn't mention anything about putting a pill, intended for ingestion, into the oral cavity and hoping it gets absorbed into the blood stream.

I'll continue looking Kiera, because not only do I want to know but because I respect you.  But as it stands, there still isn't much of an argument for sublingual absorption of estrogen.

But, on the other side, it mentions intranasal absorption in a pretty positive light, lol.

Shhhhh.   

TABLE 3-5 talks about just that. I told you where to look!!!!!

It talks about direct absorbtion when used sublingually. That's what I said.
It says, for pills, length of time in intestinal tract and amount of food changes absorbtion and
that it goes through hepatic treatment (not absorbed directly).

Cool it down folks.

Steph

Here ya go.

Single-dose pharmacokinetics of sublingual versus oral administration of micronized 17 beta-estradiol:

http://acogjnl.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/340

Lia

Thanks Genovais, now I can rest in peace 

BTW, you look great! Probably already know it HAHA

Thanks, Keira.

Not to hijack the thread, but the way the flash hits my brow bone in pictures kills me.  It's not so bad in person, just pics.  Any ideas for diminishing the effect?  Foundation doesn't seem to help, as far as I can tell.

Lia

Quote from: genovais on January 08, 2008, 11:32:31 PM
Thanks, Keira.

Not to hijack the thread, but the way the flash hits my brow bone in pictures kills me.  It's not so bad in person, just pics.  Any ideas for diminishing the effect?  Foundation doesn't seem to help, as far as I can tell.

Lia

Please don't - Start a new thread - lets sty on topic folks

Steph

Estrace type pills were formulated to be taken sublingually.  The very fact people swallow them is the problem.

Spiro for example was designed to be taken orally, so are micronized progesterone pills.  But those little blue or blue-green pills were formulated to be taken sublingually.  Thats why they dissolve so fast. 

Quote from: genovais on January 08, 2008, 11:21:19 PM
Here ya go.

Single-dose pharmacokinetics of sublingual versus oral administration of micronized 17 beta-estradiol:

http://acogjnl.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/340

Lia

Way cool, thank you.

And thank you Kierra!  This place was getting to be a sauna and I LOVE saunas!

The um, article posted by Gen was inspecific about the form of dosage, just that it was micronized estrogen.  I apologise for the splitting hairs, but if they WEREN'T using the little blue pills, but some kind of droplet or spray formula specifically designed to be taken sublingually, then it makes all the difference.

Concerning the comment that the pills are MEANT to be taken sublingually, I work in a pharmacy and hand precriptions out to menopausal women every day.  I have never seen an order to take a prescription sublingually, as a doctor would indicate on the prescription or even the bottle of the medication would indicate.

I have four college lectures literally ALL DAY today.  But, I intend to do some searching for this myself tonight if I'm not brain fried.  I really am trying to tear this up and get in deep, even if what I've implied proves to be completely incorrect.  People put so much stock into this sublingual method and preach it so much that we need a compilation of professional medical information and then it needs to be stickied.  Whether it's for self medication or not, people WILL perform the practice of sublingual taking of meds and that will shoot the potency up a lot more if what's been implied is true.  It's our obligation as a support community and as representatives of our culture to post this kind of information, in such a way that we're doing nothing more than redirecting to a professional's advice, for everyone this effects.

Posted on: January 09, 2008, 06:58:16 AM

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UPDATE!
On micronized 17 beta estradiol, as mentioned in several studies:
Micronized 17 beta estradiol is otherwise known as estrace.  All patches use micronized 17 beta estradiol.

www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/women/pht_facts.pdf


So blaaaaaah.  I hate being wrong>.>  Lol, but now we are getting a clearer picture, right?

Kiera, you forgot about suppository admin for Progesterone caps.
Which works pretty well. There are studies out there. But, I'm not going to look for them ;-).

Absortion in the mouth of P is really not good (and it wasn't made to be used that way) as you stated, and in the stomach, you also
lose quite a bit of efficiency.

Suppository Yeeeeeeeks!

Just tugin your socks hon. But jokes aside I never heard about Progesterone caps?

I guess one can expect that from an old bush girl. 

Progesterone is suspended in an oil. So it needs some kind of capsule to hold the liquid.

This has nothing to do with the topic but I went to comment a very great Charactersitic of Kalt.

She doesn't form opinions WITHOUT definite facts, studies, results and adequate scientific proof for the topic.

Notice how she doesn't accept any ideas or theories of sublingually taking meds WITHOUT definite facts.

This is a very great habit as it prevents you from forming opinions without it's justification.

You have a very great talent to extract knowledge from other people.

Quote from: Kiera on January 09, 2008, 03:56:15 PM

Quote from: Keira on January 09, 2008, 03:38:57 PM

Progesterone is suspended in an oil. So it needs some kind of capsule to hold the liquid.

Ahhh! Peanut oil! Hummm . . . knew might of been a "stupid q" 

Could get messy eh? . . .

I share your sentiments cindybc & thx dr. K!

Quote from: Tanya1 on January 09, 2008, 03:47:19 PMYou have a very great talent to extract knowledge from other people.

LOL I'd call it a "very annoying talent!"

You never did tell me how much "da bus" was Kalt!

yea she was getting annoying...LOL

Quote from: Keira on January 09, 2008, 03:38:57 PM

Progesterone is suspended in an oil. So it needs some kind of capsule to hold the liquid.

Provera is not in capsule form, but in hard powder form.

Are there any other methods of taking progesterone other than orally?  I haven't ever seen any.

Kierra, I have noted to myself recently that there are quite a few transdermal estrogen creams, like Estrogel or whatever.  I haven't ever really heard of anyone using them.  Testosterone creams, however, seem to be very popular.

I remember reading on Bodybuilding.com aobut how to isolate estrogen.  I didn't really look into it too much.  But, a lot of these bodybuilders have chemistry majors and know their ->-bleeped-<- when it comes to hormones and steroids, and a lot of bodybuilders actually use estradiol to balance our their regimens or whatever, I'm not sure.  Maybe for Kierra's sake, I could look into how to isolate the estradiol to be made into a cream.  I really think, however, that way too much would be lost.  I mean, we're talking about a medicine that's maximum pill dosage is 2mg, which would be very easily lost in some kind of freakish medical experiment that is in no way endorsed by a doctor.  Actually, writing this out has made my decision.

DO NOT TRY TO FORMULATE YOUR OWN MEDICATIONS.  Period.  There are specialty pharmacies in every city with DOCTORS to specialize creams and mix up medications for you, so you don't end up blowing yourself up or poisoning yourself.

As of yet, noone has addressed whether adding a drop or two of a liquor would help sublingual absorption.  What I mean is, crushing up the pill to powder, dropping it under the tongue, and then dropping just a tid bit of alcohol on there to increase blood flow drastically to that area.  I've been doing it and it hurts:-(

Oh and a very sincere gestuer involving one of my digits to Kiera(the one who isn't an architect) and Tanya, lol.  I am proud of be a nuisance and always will be.  Or rather, a PIONEER FOR TRUTH!

Quote from: kalt on January 09, 2008, 07:11:39 PM

Quote from: Keira on January 09, 2008, 03:38:57 PM

Progesterone is suspended in an oil. So it needs some kind of capsule to hold the liquid.

Provera is not in capsule form, but in hard powder form.

Provera isn't progesterone, but a progestin.  Progesterone, in bio-identical forms like Prometrium, is the same thing as the body produces.  Progestins are not and carry the risk of mental disturbance (depression).

Lia

Hi Kiera

Well I don't argue with anyone don't like arguing, but I do formulate and evaluate the situation and learn something from each individual expounding on their differing ideas on the subject at hand. But there is always something to learn from a good debate.   

Cindy