saying transmen are differnet to natal men, is the same as the old BS about transwomen....
tswomen are more feminine, more loving, more classically feminine... GET LOST....

Transmen to me, are men.
trans women, to me, are women.
the trans label is like saying
cancerman
cancerwoman.... its the past, its irelevant...

what attracts me to a guy, is his personality, his body, and how he treats me. i dont give a flying fudgecandy if a guy is trans or natal, hes a guy, and if that boy fits my criteria for dating, who cares!
R

Quote from: Nero on January 07, 2008, 08:43:50 AM
And yet we were raised as girls and so we understand, we know things that natal men don't.  We know so much more than natal men.

The only thing I learned from being raised as a female was what the girl's bathroom looks like and how to properly put on make up.

Transmen are petty much as imature and male as any born guy... i dont think being rased a girl will teach them anything more about being a girl, that being raised a boy did to any transwoman (well some)
R

Quote from: Rachael on January 09, 2008, 06:47:31 PM
Transmen are petty much as imature and male as any born guy... i dont think being rased a girl will teach them anything more about being a girl, that being raised a boy did to any transwoman (well some)
R

And some of them have been raised with boys and men almost all their lives, so there's nothing female about them whatsoever! 

tink

Here is a post I submitted in another thread here earlier.

Some say that a leopard never changes it's spots. Well, whomever came out with that saying couldn't be more wrong.

One steps out of their binary and venture into the next, not because of the excitement of the adventure but as a survival tactic.  I believe you will find that a person's attitude and personality can be greatly changed by the transitioning hormone that they are taking. It can be one of the most wonderful experiences you can have in your lifetime. Or it could be a nightmare if you are not ready for what is involved in order transform your life.

Cindy

My views are well known. I dont belive in the dominance of 'nurture' and 'conditioning'...
Most f2ms ive come in contact with, are just guys... they dont complain, and explain away thier inibility to act as males by blaming how they were raised. This seems a pretty much only m2f thing... There seems to be a higher fantisy factor for f2ms too... as there are no CDs enjoying dressing as men so much they pretend thier f2m to do it 24/7... theres also never been a HINT of a faker f2m... someone pretending to be f2m, and posting fake photos of themselves, and dealing with thier issues by creating and living a fantisy life on trans forums... Every f2m ive interacted with, has been down to earth, genuine, and male... and you know what? i have next to no trouble reading them as men. and treating them as such. Not because thier any different, but because thier so male, tthat its obvious. No overacting, no 'insight' into the female mind, they wont make any better boyfriend than a natal guy...

its like when some ->-bleeped-<- comes into the chatroom, and announces ' i love transwomen, because they used to be guys, and as such, know whats peasureable for a man, and how to do it'
would that offend you? sure as hell does me.
and what? we would be better wives, because we understand how our husbands think? BS....
Genuine m2fs, and f2ms, dont understand thier birth genders way of thinking, or psyche, any better than a natal woman understands how a man thinks... or vice versa. Social conditioning is a lovely excuse for those who want to futher delude themselves that they are the other gender... And as such, a rock is a rock... and just because  these guys were born sans man bits, doesnt mean they are gonna  understand a girl any better, or drink beer and watch football any less...
R

My theory on why the men rule is that their brains are not destroyed during puberty by T.  Most take it later than a natal gets their T and so they may think a little different as a group.

I am not generalizing.  I understand that there are T-men who are as tough and violent a man as you'll ever find.  I'm just saying that IF there is any difference in attitude between T-men as a group and natal men, that it MAY be due to taking T later in their development and also having to make that journey from their birth sex-body to becoming the people they really are.  That journey in itself is one that must temper the soul.

No offense intended toward anybody.  It's just a thought and I don't claim to be correct.


Rebis

Quote from: Rachael on January 09, 2008, 08:40:05 PM
My views are well known. I dont belive in the dominance of 'nurture' and 'conditioning'...
Most f2ms ive come in contact with, are just guys... they dont complain, and explain away thier inibility to act as males by blaming how they were raised. This seems a pretty much only m2f thing... There seems to be a higher fantisy factor for f2ms too... as there are no CDs enjoying dressing as men so much they pretend thier f2m to do it 24/7... theres also never been a HINT of a faker f2m... someone pretending to be f2m, and posting fake photos of themselves, and dealing with thier issues by creating and living a fantisy life on trans forums... Every f2m ive interacted with, has been down to earth, genuine, and male... and you know what? i have next to no trouble reading them as men. and treating them as such. Not because thier any different, but because thier so male, tthat its obvious. No overacting, no 'insight' into the female mind, they wont make any better boyfriend than a natal guy...

its like when some ->-bleeped-<- comes into the chatroom, and announces ' i love transwomen, because they used to be guys, and as such, know whats peasureable for a man, and how to do it'
would that offend you? sure as hell does me.
and what? we would be better wives, because we understand how our husbands think? BS....
Genuine m2fs, and f2ms, dont understand thier birth genders way of thinking, or psyche, any better than a natal woman understands how a man thinks... or vice versa. Social conditioning is a lovely excuse for those who want to futher delude themselves that they are the other gender... And as such, a rock is a rock... and just because  these guys were born sans man bits, doesnt mean they are gonna  understand a girl any better, or drink beer and watch football any less...
R

I agree 100% Rachael.  Sometimes, I don't agree with what you say, but when you get it right, WOW, do you get it RIGHT!!!!! 
You couldn't be more female if you tried, your feminine intuitive powers are SPOT ON!!!                 

b/c we're da best

Quote from: Rebis on January 09, 2008, 09:22:15 PM

My theory on why the men rule is that their brains are not destroyed during puberty by T.  Most take it later than a natal gets their T and so they may think a little different as a group.

I am not generalizing.  I understand that there are T-men who are as tough and violent a man as you'll ever find.  I'm just saying that IF there is any difference in attitude between T-men as a group and natal men, that it MAY be due to taking T later in their development and also having to make that journey from their birth sex-body to becoming the people they really are.  That journey in itself is one that must temper the soul.

No offense intended toward anybody.  It's just a thought and I don't claim to be correct.


Rebis

So f2ms are inferior copys of men...
Dont we agree, that the reason transsexual people transition, is because they are trapped in the wrong body... f2ms are males, m2fs are femals, who by scome cruel twist of fate,  got dumped with the bad lot... if so. when you take hormones to change your physical development, it hasnt had any effect on your maleness, or femaleness. I tell you something Rebis, I havent changed since hrt. Ive got more happy, more relaxed, and more content with myself. But i am the same person i was pretransition. im under no ilusion that this is a new life, or im  a whole new person... Testosterone is the same. For m2fs, thier strenght drops, and thier muscles... for f2ms, they go up, and thier IQ goes down *runs*
R

Quote
So f2ms are inferior copys of men...
Dont we agree, that the reason transsexual people transition, is because they are trapped in the wrong body... f2ms are males, m2fs are femals, who by scome cruel twist of fate,  got dumped with the bad lot... if so. when you take hormones to change your physical development, it hasnt had any effect on your maleness, or femaleness. I tell you something Rebis, I havent changed since hrt. Ive got more happy, more relaxed, and more content with myself. But i am the same person i was pretransition. im under no ilusion that this is a new life, or im  a whole new person... Testosterone is the same. For m2fs, thier strenght drops, and thier muscles... for f2ms, they go up, and thier IQ goes down *runs*
R

So your saying that FTMs growing up in a female body makes no diffrence to the person?

Im sorry I totally disagree with what you are saying.

However I am not going to rant as I simply cant be bothered anymore.....

does growing up in a male body make a difference to the person in a m2fs case?
In the case of true transexuality, the dysphoria WITH that body, and how the person is raised, is what causes transition. Thus, disolusionment with thier birth gender would separate them even further from thier birth gender... Sure theres a difference... you miss out on however many years... but i dont agree on social conditioning theory.
R

I don't worry so much about the whys. The fifteen or so trans-men I know in person and the additional fifteen or so I have 'met' on boards over the last six years just leave me with the total impression that they DO. Period. (With the ONE exception I have mentioned elsewhere.)

It's kinda like, for me, is gold valuable because people had a hard time extracting it and thus it became valuable, or is there some 'in-born' quality of gold that would make it valuable regardless? Ya, know, I just really don't care. The important thing for me is that "I love it and appreciate it more than I do lead." *smile*

For me:

Quoteb/c we're da best

pretty much sums it up.

N~

Yeah, Chris has got it short n sweet... typical male response ><
R

Quote from: Rachael on January 10, 2008, 04:10:15 AM
So f2ms are inferior copys of men...
Dont we agree, that the reason transsexual people transition, is because they are trapped in the wrong body... f2ms are males, m2fs are femals, who by scome cruel twist of fate,  got dumped with the bad lot... if so. when you take hormones to change your physical development, it hasnt had any effect on your maleness, or femaleness. I tell you something Rebis, I havent changed since hrt. Ive got more happy, more relaxed, and more content with myself. But i am the same person i was pretransition. im under no ilusion that this is a new life, or im  a whole new person... Testosterone is the same. For m2fs, thier strenght drops, and thier muscles... for f2ms, they go up, and thier IQ goes down *runs*
R

No.  I am not saying they are inferior copies of men.  I understand that the men are men.
   My point is that there MAY be a subtle difference in a person who's body and mind has been T soaked since birth from a person who's mind and body is not.

    I am NOT saying that taking T later has an effect on the maleness of the person's identity.  I am saying that they have had to live with their minds bathed in E as opposed to T, and so MAYBE it has an effect on them in some way that I can not explain because this is a HYPOTHESIS and not a judgment or even a conclusion.

anyway, whatever the effect of growing up as they do.  The men still ROCK!!

Rebis
   

Posted on: January 10, 2008, 07:35:06 AM

---

Quote from: Rachael on January 10, 2008, 05:10:50 AM
does growing up in a male body make a difference to the person in a m2fs case?
In the case of true transexuality, the dysphoria WITH that body, and how the person is raised, is what causes transition. Thus, disolusionment with thier birth gender would separate them even further from thier birth gender... Sure theres a difference... you miss out on however many years... but i dont agree on social conditioning theory.
R

My theory did not concern social conditioning.  It concerned the beating of the mind by T - a physical thing.  and also the affect upon their character of having to go through the process of discovering their identity, accepting their identity, and becoming the person to whom that identity belongs.

you do realise natal men arnt 'soaked' in T since birth either?
most gendered hormonal difference is from puberty... by the same standard, your saying m2fs arnt propper women because they didnt all transition at 13...
R

Quote from: Rachael on January 10, 2008, 08:08:06 AM
you do realise natal men arnt 'soaked' in T since birth either?
most gendered hormonal difference is from puberty... by the same standard, your saying m2fs arnt propper women because they didnt all transition at 13...
R

I understand about not being soaked while young.  I should have specified that the human brain does not mature until 25.  Natal men's brains are soaked when they hit puberty at a time when their brains are in serious development mode. I would think there's a difference between a human brain that is T soaked from about the age of 13 or 14 and a brain that doesn't begin until 18.  There must be a bigger difference between a 13/14 year old brain starting out and a brain starting out at 20 or above.

As I said, it is an idea I have.  A thought.  I'm not married to it.

Quote from: Rebis on January 10, 2008, 08:13:00 AM

As I said, it is an idea I have.  A thought.  I'm not married to it.

And even if you were married to it, you could always 'fool around!!' 

N~

Quote from: Rachael on January 10, 2008, 05:10:50 AM
does growing up in a male body make a difference to the person in a m2fs case?
In the case of true transexuality, the dysphoria WITH that body, and how the person is raised, is what causes transition. Thus, disolusionment with thier birth gender would separate them even further from thier birth gender... Sure theres a difference... you miss out on however many years... but i dont agree on social conditioning theory.
R

i concord rachael. 

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2008, 12:59:48 AM
b/c we're da best

ya you're the best chris.  we know that.

We are all here under the same roof  so don't poke holes in somone else's part of it. I believe if one was to do a little research we would be amazed at what changes T can brings to a F+M or E for an M+F. Subtle changes in the beginning, but the  biggest part of the changes will be within. They are changes that eventually will change your personality and attitude, and how you feel within yourself you will find some of these can be very profound changes.

Cindy