Speaking loudly should be done without force - especially not tightening up the throat muscles. Your power of the voice should come from the lung - that is why abdominal breathing - which is part of the Yeson exercises - is so important. Also the Yeson exercises should be done with a relaxed throat, even opening the jaw should only involve the jaw muscles and not cause tension in the troat anywhere... I think if one manages to master that, the voice can be louder. I also still fall into old speech patterns that involve tightening up the throat muscles which causes the voice to be strained, reach less volume and so on... Its a long process to really learn how to use this new voice properly...

Good information, Anja - thanks.  That explains why I can do the ing-ah one very loudly I think?  The sounds just sort of come out normally and you don't have to do anything with your throat, etc.

Went out to lunch today and my louder voice there was just odd... somehow lower too so it's my brain getting in the way.  I swear before surgery my loud voice was higher pitch, but now I'm doing the inverse somehow.

Sounds great, it will get even better in a few months!

Quote from: Denjin on May 24, 2016, 03:04:55 PM
Here are my 8 week recordings.  I do have a lisp naturally and have to focus to enunciate properly, but I really didn't for these so it's more natural.  Still have some issues with pitch control and my old resonance technique seems to work differently now, and my voice also has a 'laryngitis' quality to it.  However, I'm not trying to raise pitch or anything, it's just speaking.

Rainbow Passage
http://vocaroo.com/i/s09a2MTz0WIu

Comma Gets a Cure
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1z5KuLPyKKq

Quote from: jollyjoy on June 06, 2016, 11:14:04 AM
Sounds great, it will get even better in a few months!

Thanks, Joy - I hope so.  It's gone up about only about 40Hz from where it was before, but at least it wasn't that low before.

Yes - 40 Hz seems to not be uncommon. I think I gained about the same. 135 Hz gone up to 170-190 Hz usually. But thats ok, its in the low female range and people seem to like it because it sounds natural. One woman called me the other day and asked me right away if I had voice surgery since my voice to her was "perfect" - lol - I disagree a bit on that, but glad that others find it good .

That's good!  Natural is what you want, regardless of the pitch.  I know we (as in transwomen) seem to hyperfocus on pitch...

I have pitch instability, still, too.  Today I was only up about 20Hz from before. I'm mostly worried about my resonance as I thought it was perfect before but I am having problems now.  I start seeing a speech pathologist from Thursday and hope she can help.

Quote from: Denjin on June 07, 2016, 02:19:50 PM
That's good!  Natural is what you want, regardless of the pitch.  I know we (as in transwomen) seem to hyperfocus on pitch...

I have pitch instability, still, too.  Today I was only up about 20Hz from before. I'm mostly worried about my resonance as I thought it was perfect before but I am having problems now.  I start seeing a speech pathologist from Thursday and hope she can help.

I have noticed from my personal experience is that after a month or the very first time you can actually say a word post surgery because people heal up differently, that pitch is what you are likely to end up and will just get better in time ie;  gain of volume and clearliness.

You had the resonance before (which I didn't have before surgery but actually learning) and I don't think you're gonna lose it sweety. You sounded really good to me before and I am so sure you will only end up better

Speech therapy will certainly help you get there 

Brenda

Oops! I wanna say something about that pitch issue.

It really depends on which continent you are living. In some continents, low female pitch is regarded as normal and sexy.

In Asia where I'm coming from, high female pitch is regarded as attractive and sexy. I live in Europe and my old low pitch was passing  all the time and 50% on the phone but when I go to Asia, no matter how sexy and beautiful I look, I get clocked straight away with that low pitch...just sharing my personal opinion 

Yes definitely there are cultural pitch differences.
For example: https://www.coli.uni-saarland.de/~trouvain/Andreeva_et_al_2014.pdf and references therein about Japanese versus English.

So I guess while Asian trans women have it easier because of the body and facial features often being less masculine, the voice issue is a bigger problem there. Maybe that is why one of the best voice surgeons is in Asia

So I just checked and apparently I am now really more in the 190 Hz range which means I have gotten a 55 Hz pitch change after all - which is cool. However the pitch change between week 5 or 6 and now is rather minimal. I had 170-180 Hz at week 6 and have 180-190 now, on a bad day or when I lack prosody and pitch variations it is even lower again. So I am not sure if there is that much real pitch change in that timeframe, I think however one learns a lot about how to use the new voice properly and thus also find a new sweet spot, so it is more a thing of getting used to the voice and breaking old habits. When I fall into old habits , my voice gets strained and I reach only 170 Hz, I need to use a different way of speaking which does not strain the voice and then it comes out at 190 Hz.

This goes along with another thing I want to say about resonance and prosody - thise have to be partially re-learned or modified. If I use the old resonance technique I used before, it puts tension on the vocal folds and actually lowers pitch and volume. I actually need to speak with much less resonance control and sort of control myself to not use that much control in order to speak free and without strain.

In any case - its a bit of a struggle and one has to listen to the feedback the voice and body and ear gives . If it hurts or you get a sore or tight throat, you are doing it wrong. When you get a clean note that is also loud, you are doing something right (for example in the exercises)

Quote from: bmiranda on June 07, 2016, 03:40:51 PM
Oops! I wanna say something about that pitch issue.

It really depends on which continent you are living. In some continents, low female pitch is regarded as normal and sexy.

In Asia where I'm coming from, high female pitch is regarded as attractive and sexy. I live in Europe and my old low pitch was passing  all the time and 50% on the phone but when I go to Asia, no matter how sexy and beautiful I look, I get clocked straight away with that low pitch...just sharing my personal opinion 

Totally! I'm tall and of northern European descent (ignore my username - lol) , so my new pitch is totally within the norm from what I've seen.   I do like how it sounds at like 225 Hz, but will have to live with less.

Quote from: anja
This goes along with another thing I want to say about resonance and prosody - thise have to be partially re-learned or modified. If I use the old resonance technique I used before, it puts tension on the vocal folds and actually lowers pitch and volume. I actually need to speak with much less resonance control and sort of control myself to not use that much control in order to speak free and without strain.

That sounds the same as me!  My old resonance technique creates too much tension, and worked great with my old cords but not these.

Yes i would like to have 220 Hz as well, but its not really comfortable for me. I even can do 250 Hz but its not really relaxed, its more like doing what I did before surgery to raise pitch ina ddition to the surgery...

By the way, there is a scientific paper coming up from Dr Kim titled "A New Conceptual Approach for Voice Feminization: 12 Years of Experience" which will show the results of "A retrospective study was performed on 362 patients who underwent VFSRAC."

It was accepted for publication and soon will be available in a scientific journal - I will post a link once it is out.

Saw a speech pathologist today and she said my resonance is wrong because I'm speaking wrong.  I still don't understand, though.  I need to speak from the front of my mouth and it sounds like it's in the back with too much nasal resonance at the moment.

Interested in that study!

Quote from: Denjin on June 09, 2016, 01:35:07 PM
Saw a speech pathologist today and she said my resonance is wrong because I'm speaking wrong. I still don't understand, though.

I don't understand either because you obviously had it before

Quote from: DenjinI need to speak from the front of my mouth and it sounds like it's in the back with too much nasal resonance at the moment.

This is a bit confusing to me...can you elaborate this please?

Yeah, I don't understand why it's different now, the resonance.  I think it's because my old technique also increased pitch, but that's not a good idea to do so now and it just makes a weird nasal resonance.

I could post a sample, but I might as well just wait until the three month mark now, since that is like 1.5 weeks away?

I really didn't understand, the speaking comment either, Brenda.  She said it sounds like my voice is coming from the back of my mouth?!? and I can feel a strong vibration near my nose.  But, my resonance and vocal quality will be better if the voice sounds like it's coming out of the front.  So hard to explain.  Kind of like when you say 'Two', sort of throwing your voice.  I do know if I try and speak this way I can get louder, too?  Meh, it's all confusing.  Even at Dr. Kim they tried to explain this to me.


Interesting, though, no matter how low I push my voice I just can't get any chest resonance now.  Not that I ever USED that in a long long time, but it's not even possible at all now.

Chest resonance is hard or impossible ideed after the vFS, which is cool.

I think you should get a face to face therapy for a coule of sessions with the SLT. They have exercises to train projection (which is probably what is meant by speaking from the front of the mouth).

the resonance works differently post VFS - I imagine it like when you take a wine glass and put in some water and then slide your finger around it to make a sound. Now if you use a differnt size glass or different amount of water, the rsonance changes and you need to move your finger differently to hit the right resonance. The new voice has different resonance and a different "sweet spot", and this has to be re-learned.

Thanks, Anja.  I have limited options for speech therapy and the like where I live, unfortunately.  However, the speech therapist is the one who was showing me how to speak differently.  This session was covering a lot of items, though, so not as focused.  I'll go again once botox is totally worn off I think.  It does sound like it was projection, yes, which was from the front of the mouth (but not into the nasal area in terms of resonance).

It seems this is all easier for people who had much lower voices before the surgery.

Quote from: Denjin on June 09, 2016, 03:47:43 PM
Yeah, I don't understand why it's different now, the resonance.  I think it's because my old technique also increased pitch, but that's not a good idea to do so now and it just makes a weird nasal resonance.

I could post a sample, but I might as well just wait until the three month mark now, since that is like 1.5 weeks away?

I really didn't understand, the speaking comment either, Brenda.  She said it sounds like my voice is coming from the back of my mouth?!? and I can feel a strong vibration near my nose.  But, my resonance and vocal quality will be better if the voice sounds like it's coming out of the front.  So hard to explain.  Kind of like when you say 'Two', sort of throwing your voice.  I do know if I try and speak this way I can get louder, too?  Meh, it's all confusing.  Even at Dr. Kim they tried to explain this to me.

I now understand thank you but I heard that resonace is found at he back of the mouth and it obviously makes vibration inside the nose. And she is saying the other way around  me really lost I tried that too making the sound out from the mouth but my voice was hurrendously low and hoarsed

Quote from: Denjin
Interesting, though, no matter how low I push my voice I just can't get any chest resonance now.  Not that I ever USED that in a long long time, but it's not even possible at all now.

I used that chest resonance a lot before and I am just so glad that it has been completely eliminated which is a good thing with this voice surgery

Just a question though. How about coughing and laughing? Did you see any difference post surgery? Sorry for being curious 

It's hard to tell about coughing and laughing.  For me, both are quite feminine.  However, I had that part nailed before surgery...I think I don't have to try to do it now, though.

Quote from: Denjin on June 09, 2016, 04:36:38 PM
It seems this is all easier for people who had much lower voices before the surgery.

I am not sure - I think it has more to do with unaltered voices. If the voice was already altered for a long time it is harder to break the habits. Also dysphonia and muscle tension  seem to occur then, which may persist post-OP. Dr Kim writes a bit abouot that too in the paper. The DOI probably is going to be: DOI: 10.1002/lary.26127

Thanks for the DOI, Anja.  Do agree about habits.

Here's my voice in the morning - not used it much today but it does feel dry and was abused yesterday!
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1F9U5cx3ngJ