Quote from: Brandon on June 14, 2016, 02:14:18 PM
No actually a lot of people would agree with me. I am sorry but I see it as confusion point blank period. I was brought up a certain way and I am not gonna change it.

Oh the irony [emoji79]

Quote from: Matti on June 06, 2016, 05:55:04 AM

My question at the moment: Can a lesbian be together with a transman? And it being socially acceptable?

In the LGBTQ community you'd think we'd stop policing each other's sexuality and identity given everything our communities have been through. Unfortunately there are still some in our communities that think everyone like them (or what they deem "normal" or "acceptable) should be accepted by mainstream cis/hetero society, but anyone that doesn't fall into the boxes they think should exist should be policed.

Yes, a lesbian and a transman can be in a relationship and who gives a ->-bleeped-<- who thinks its socially acceptable or not I am a transguy and my partner identifies as a queer femme, a dyke, and pansexual. I should also clarify that I was out as a transguy and she knew I was a transguy when we first started dating, and I knew she identified as a queer femme and a dyke. We primarily go to queer events and many of our friends are queer, so among them no one sees any problem whatsoever with us dating. The only ones that have ever really given either of us any ->-bleeped-<- about it tends to be more "traditional" gay/lesbian types who aren't really apart of the queer community. It mostly comes in the form of them telling my girlfriend she must be straight now because she's dating me. Only thing is I don't identify as straight either, but as queer, and as far as either of us are concerned we're in a queer relationship. But for some reason these more "traditional" types refuse to respect how we define our own relationship, and instead want to police things and define our relationship for themselves despite that it has nothing to do with them. Honestly though, most of this kind of policing I've noticed occurs more online than irl. But then I also know other transguys dating queer women or lesbians, so it also depends who you surround yourself with.

The way I see it is it comes down to insecurity on the part of those people doing the policing, or saying they won't accept how others define themselves or their relationships. The funny thing is is it makes them no different than mainstream cis/hetero society who rage against transpeople as delusional or the lgb/queer community as "unnatural" or whatever. Better to ignore them or even go as far as cut them out of your social circle if it really gets bad and they can't keep their thoughts to themselves.

Quote from: invisiblemonsters on June 06, 2016, 08:57:15 AM
if you were together before you transitioned or whatever, i think it's different. however, if a trans man is still in womens spaces and actively seeks relationships with lesbians, i think that is where the problem lies. why would a trans man be in womens spaces (with the exception of safety concerns, obviously)? why would a trans man actively seek out a lesbian to date, invalidating his identity and even hers? it goes against the whole purpose of being seen as a man. i get WHY people would but i don't agree with it.

i wouldn't date a lesbian because it would make me feel really dysphoric. i am a straight man and i wanna be with a woman who likes men (whether she is bi, straight, whatever, as long as she likes men and would see me as a man). i spent too long wanting to be seen as a man and accepted as a man to deal with people thinking i'm just some lesbian. them seeing me as a lesbian is probably unlikely because i have facial hair, etc. but because of that, i also don't want people to think my lesbian partner is with a man if she is committed to her lesbian label and a proud lesbian. i think that can cause friction and make her feel as if her identity isn't being validated which causes issues in the relationship (i feel this can also happen with straight women who date trans men too). people in the LGBT community usually take awhile to accept who they are, and yes everyone else including the own community tries to invalidate them for going against the "norm" like a lesbian dating a trans man. "oh, you sure you're a man? are you sure you're a lesbian?" so idk.

So I guess I am a "problem" then I'll come out and say that if I weren't already in a common law relationship I would never date a straight woman. Despite being primarily attracted to women I identify as a queer transguy, not as straight. I prefer to date queer/lesbian/dyke/pansexual women (read: generally not-straight women). It is for no one else to say but me whether or not I am "invalidating" my identity. And it is for no one but my partner to decide whether or not her identity is "invalidated." The problem is not with people's identities but with those who choose to police others.

Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2016, 06:40:59 PM
Isn't that not even alittle bit controdictary to being trans though? How are you gonna fight to be recognized as a man and then date a lesbian. Just think about that for a second and I am not trying to be rude I just never understood it there are so many bi and straight women who would have no problem dating trans men but you go for a woman who purely likes women. That's the definiton of a lesbian atleast I thought. That makes no type of sense whatsoever I am sorry it just doesn't it to alot of people it seems like it would cause confusion just being honest. Please explain how not a agreeing with a lesbian dating a man is homophobic and please explain how not agreeing with a trans man dating a lesbian is trans phobic because that makes no sense to me at all. I mean its like me preferring mixed girls or latinas, I am not gonna consider the older people in my family racist because they think I should date within my race that's how they were brought up, not saying its right. You see how that sounds?

The primary point is that it's not up to you to decide who other people date, and the fact that you see fit to police others or form an "opinion" on the appropriateness of other transmen's relationships says more about you and potential insecurity around your own identity than it does about others.

Quote from: sleepsinallday on June 13, 2016, 07:12:39 PM
Allow me to clarify a few things...

A woman is not a lesbian because she only dates women, she is a lesbian because that is how she identifies and no one else is allowed to say that she's not a lesbian (regardless of what she does or whom she dates).

A trans man is not a trans man because of the person he dates, he is a trans man because that is how he identifies and no one else is allowed to say that he's not a man (regardless of what he does or whom he dates).

The homophobia and transphobia come in because these strict definitions would NEVER be applied to cishet people. If a woman wants to call herself straight but fools around with women all of the time, people would be up in arms to defend her if she was attacked for her curiosity. The same goes for cis people...if a cis man and a lesbian hooked up, how would that invalidate the cis man's gender? Do you see the double standard here? Putting yourself in the 'lesbian box' or the 'trans box' should not mean sacrificing your personal freedom to uphold some technical definition!

The problem is that if you say that "X person should date Y person because they are Z," you are policing someone's behavior based on their own identity. Everyone is entitled to dictate their own sexual orientation and their own gender. It could be a phase or an experiment, it could be the next chapter of their lives! You don't get a say in how other people should identify, and you don't get to dictate their behavior because it "makes no sense." If a transgender man is comfortable dating someone who self-identifies as a lesbian (and vice versa), then there is no problem! Relationships are not about making things less confusing for other people.

I don't mean to be rude, I just want to be clear.
(and what does this have to do with race?)

Spot on

The older i get, the less labels mean to me. Discourse like this helps drive that trend. 

Let people be people as one poster above said.

@Berserk,
I have noticed the amount of online negativity is so high online. Though I usually try to think that since you dunno who the person is, they have a hard time expressing themselves or they just enjoy the safe zone behind the PC screen.
Does help to know someone is in somewhat the same shoes! Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Quote from: Berserk on June 15, 2016, 09:02:47 PM
In the LGBTQ community you'd think we'd stop policing each other's sexuality and identity given everything our communities have been through. Unfortunately there are still some in our communities that think everyone like them (or what they deem "normal" or "acceptable) should be accepted by mainstream cis/hetero society, but anyone that doesn't fall into the boxes they think should exist should be policed.

Yes, a lesbian and a transman can be in a relationship and who gives a ->-bleeped-<- who thinks its socially acceptable or not I am a transguy and my partner identifies as a queer femme, a dyke, and pansexual. I should also clarify that I was out as a transguy and she knew I was a transguy when we first started dating, and I knew she identified as a queer femme and a dyke. We primarily go to queer events and many of our friends are queer, so among them no one sees any problem whatsoever with us dating. The only ones that have ever really given either of us any ->-bleeped-<- about it tends to be more "traditional" gay/lesbian types who aren't really apart of the queer community. It mostly comes in the form of them telling my girlfriend she must be straight now because she's dating me. Only thing is I don't identify as straight either, but as queer, and as far as either of us are concerned we're in a queer relationship. But for some reason these more "traditional" types refuse to respect how we define our own relationship, and instead want to police things and define our relationship for themselves despite that it has nothing to do with them. Honestly though, most of this kind of policing I've noticed occurs more online than irl. But then I also know other transguys dating queer women or lesbians, so it also depends who you surround yourself with.

The way I see it is it comes down to insecurity on the part of those people doing the policing, or saying they won't accept how others define themselves or their relationships. The funny thing is is it makes them no different than mainstream cis/hetero society who rage against transpeople as delusional or the lgb/queer community as "unnatural" or whatever. Better to ignore them or even go as far as cut them out of your social circle if it really gets bad and they can't keep their thoughts to themselves.

So I guess I am a "problem" then I'll come out and say that if I weren't already in a common law relationship I would never date a straight woman. Despite being primarily attracted to women I identify as a queer transguy, not as straight. I prefer to date queer/lesbian/dyke/pansexual women (read: generally not-straight women). It is for no one else to say but me whether or not I am "invalidating" my identity. And it is for no one but my partner to decide whether or not her identity is "invalidated." The problem is not with people's identities but with those who choose to police others.

The primary point is that it's not up to you to decide who other people date, and the fact that you see fit to police others or form an "opinion" on the appropriateness of other transmen's relationships says more about you and potential insecurity around your own identity than it does about others.

Spot on

Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

Quote from: Brandon on June 16, 2016, 12:31:37 AM
Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

Hey Brandon, it's true that not many lesbian women would date cis men, though it does happen.  What people are trying to say, however, is that love and attraction sometimes conquers all.  It is a hypothetical situation--said lesbian may see the trans man as 100% male and just be into you so much that she is willing to deviate from the sexuality she was born with for romantic reasons (as we are all CAPABLE of having an intimate relationship with the gender we aren't primarily or naturally attracted to), she may indeed see the trans man as part female since he was AFAB and the trans man is the one who is into them enough to handle this as a personal choice, or the lesbian might be a bit fluid with her sexuality and still identify as a lesbian because she primarily prefers women. 

From what I can tell, you personally would be 100% unwilling to date someone who identifies as lesbian just in case her reasoning was the middle hypothetical (that she sees you as female).  That's okay!  But there are plenty of guys who are willing to take the "risk" or simply don't care as much as you do.  Your point of view is absolutely 100% valid, but not everyone shares it.  So in the end, it's important to live and let live. 

It's great that you want to understand why someone would ever do that, but I think you have received many good points of view and are probably not going to get any better responses.  If it doesn't click at this point it may be best just to shrug your shoulders, say "people will be people!", and drop the issue.  I am in the kink/BDSM community, and one of the first things you learn there is that everybody has their own views on what they like.  Often you can't even imagine why they would do what they do, but one of the rules in the community is that if it is not hurting anyone then just smile and let them be who they are.  I think this applies in this situation as well.

Know that I am not trying to chastise you or anything--I respect how much you want to understand others.  I'm just pointing out that sometimes, no matter HOW hard we think about, we can't understand why people are okay with doing stuff we would never do--just because we wouldn't do it doesn't make it wrong, but it CAN make it hard to comprehend.  At that point it simply becomes frustrating and is often the best time to give them a hug and say "I don't get it, but I'm okay with it, and I am really glad it's what makes you happy." Then maybe, as you continue to spend time with those people outside of debate, you will come to understand later, when you know them better.

I tried to send you a PM, OP, but I couldn't - I hope you are still reading though

I just wanted to send all the support and high-fives in the world to you and your girlfriend. It's hard to be happy in this world, and hard to find someone who you really want to be with. Labels are made to help us, not to be boxes which control how we behave. You owe nothing to anybody but yourself, your girlfriend, and being the best partner you can.

I've had all sorts of ->-bleeped-<- in my time from similar people. Been called a traitor to womanhood for dating a cisman. Been bullied by other bisexuals for being the sort of bisexual who dates cismen instead of, you know, cool queer trans men or whatever. This stuff really affects you and mucks up your perception and impacts stuff.

For me it always felt a lot like when a guy sidles up to you on the bus, and you know he's hitting on you, but if you ask him to stop suddenly he denies all knowledge - but you *know* in your gut what he meant. So, people talking about the patriarchy in general terms and then implying that bisexual women dating men aren't really queer, and I'm sitting there thinking...hang on...but if I say anything they reply "oh, not you, but we were talking about how problematic it is on a societal level and as oppressed people we have the right to critique the cisheteropatriarchy because we can't possibly hurt anyone, we are so oppressed". You let it slide. Five minutes later, they're implying your boyfriend is a rapist, and you're not committed to LGBT rights because you won't sleep with them.

You get the idea.

None of those people are in my life any more.

And it never stops: I'm marginally more cool now, because I'm not dating a straight guy any more and I'm more out about my gender. But my new boyfriend - a cis, gay man - is too nervous to go to Pride with me because I don't pass and he doesn't want to put up with this bull->-bleeped-<-. He's not too nervous of getting, you know, shot or outed to his parents. He's nervous about that rejection by our queer fellows. He sends me nervous texts whenever I go to lgbt groups, because he's worried about me dumping him for someone more Radical. 

Bad times.

Balls through it, friend. You can even use it as a litmus test. Anyone who gives you the slightest pushback, critique, or gut-feeling about your personal relationship is not the sort of person you want to hang around with.
 
Your relationship is chillin out in your pajamas, bringing cups of tea when each other are ill, surprise notes on the fridge and lending each other books. Your relationship is not a tool of the queer resistance, or an example of how problematic trans male politics can be, or any of that ->-bleeped-<-. Cut anyone out of your life who tries to use it as one. There are plenty of accepting people, find them. And I hate to say it, but often the people most accepting of this kind of thing are not necessarily people who are super super into lgbt politics. You'd hope that people who think a lot about gender/sexuality/fluidity would understand. I've found they can be far more dogmatic.

And get yourself a copy of Bob & Rose, the fuzzy sitcom about a gay man who inexplicably falls in love with a woman. It's adorable and very affirming for those of us who don't fit the boxes right.

Quote from: MichaelTolliverLives on June 16, 2016, 10:56:31 AM
I tried to send you a PM, OP, but I couldn't - I hope you are still reading though

I just wanted to send all the support and high-fives in the world to you and your girlfriend. It's hard to be happy in this world, and hard to find someone who you really want to be with. Labels are made to help us, not to be boxes which control how we behave. You owe nothing to anybody but yourself, your girlfriend, and being the best partner you can.

I've had all sorts of ->-bleeped-<- in my time from similar people. Been called a traitor to womanhood for dating a cisman. Been bullied by other bisexuals for being the sort of bisexual who dates cismen instead of, you know, cool queer trans men or whatever. This stuff really affects you and mucks up your perception and impacts stuff.

For me it always felt a lot like when a guy sidles up to you on the bus, and you know he's hitting on you, but if you ask him to stop suddenly he denies all knowledge - but you *know* in your gut what he meant. So, people talking about the patriarchy in general terms and then implying that bisexual women dating men aren't really queer, and I'm sitting there thinking...hang on...but if I say anything they reply "oh, not you, but we were talking about how problematic it is on a societal level and as oppressed people we have the right to critique the cisheteropatriarchy because we can't possibly hurt anyone, we are so oppressed". You let it slide. Five minutes later, they're implying your boyfriend is a rapist, and you're not committed to LGBT rights because you won't sleep with them.

You get the idea.

None of those people are in my life any more.

And it never stops: I'm marginally more cool now, because I'm not dating a straight guy any more and I'm more out about my gender. But my new boyfriend - a cis, gay man - is too nervous to go to Pride with me because I don't pass and he doesn't want to put up with this bull->-bleeped-<-. He's not too nervous of getting, you know, shot or outed to his parents. He's nervous about that rejection by our queer fellows. He sends me nervous texts whenever I go to lgbt groups, because he's worried about me dumping him for someone more Radical. 

Bad times.

Balls through it, friend. You can even use it as a litmus test. Anyone who gives you the slightest pushback, critique, or gut-feeling about your personal relationship is not the sort of person you want to hang around with.
 
Your relationship is chillin out in your pajamas, bringing cups of tea when each other are ill, surprise notes on the fridge and lending each other books. Your relationship is not a tool of the queer resistance, or an example of how problematic trans male politics can be, or any of that ->-bleeped-<-. Cut anyone out of your life who tries to use it as one. There are plenty of accepting people, find them. And I hate to say it, but often the people most accepting of this kind of thing are not necessarily people who are super super into lgbt politics. You'd hope that people who think a lot about gender/sexuality/fluidity would understand. I've found they can be far more dogmatic.

Thanks mate! I will take your words to heart for sure.
And I noticed that with the messaging people...I dont know why I cant... :/ My skype should work tho.

I don't have time to read all the posts so maybe it was mentioned, but I recommend reading "Queerly Beloved," by Diane and Jacob Anderson-Minshall.

Quote from: Matti on June 16, 2016, 12:29:15 AM
@Berserk,
I have noticed the amount of online negativity is so high online. Though I usually try to think that since you dunno who the person is, they have a hard time expressing themselves or they just enjoy the safe zone behind the PC screen.
Does help to know someone is in somewhat the same shoes! Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Yeah its hard to tell which. Sometimes I think it is the hiding behind a screen thing. I think some people just feel insecure because somehow they think that your relationship as a transguy somehow reflects on them as transguys. Like the cis straight people who see those of us that don't fit the box are gonna judge them cause of it, so then they decide to start policing because of that insecurity. Thing is, it isn't our responsibility to baby their egos or insecurities. We all have our right to our personal happiness. I dunno. I think also part of it is we are really more exposed to all sorts of people online versus irl. You definitely find out who your friends are irl for sure, and there are folks who will say that kind of ->-bleeped-<- to your face for sure. But I think its just a case of picking your social circle and finding supportive folks. I think over time that kind of thing or fear of judgement is just something you get over too. Once you're in the thick of your relationship and you have each other at least I find others' opinions become less important.

Quote from: Brandon on June 16, 2016, 12:31:37 AM
Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

I wouldn't say I've bypassed that at all. Think I gave some pretty straight up answers in my last post. So to put it bluntly: I don't care if those lesbians would date cis men or not. My current gf has dated cis men, but before we started dating she was mainly dating queer femmes. But neither of that matters to either of us. Our relationship is our relationship. Being a cis man is not the be all and end all of manliness. I don't judge myself as a guy based on how close I meet "the cis standard." I can be a fully legitimate guy without thinking of myself as exactly the same a cis guy. I'm not and I won't ever be. Life isn't so black and white. Not just for trans people but for cis people too.

Quote from: StevieC9 on June 14, 2016, 05:59:51 PM
Oh the irony [emoji79]

Ha ha, ebony in irony! Oh man, risky wouldn't you say? Anyway, let the moderators moderate and the biological... thing over there will date this... ah, too complicated, let's all be human ok? This is starting to feel like a comentary page on YT, I never thought I'd see this here but still, how many....

                                                                      Peace and harmony, Rose.

For me, I couldn't do it. I have only dated straight women, and will only ever be with straight women. That is on me, though and my own dysphoria. If you're comfortable in your relationship, then remain part of that relationship. If the two of you want it, and want to make it work, then who cares what others think. As long as you're both comfortable.

Quote from: Brandon on June 16, 2016, 12:31:37 AM
Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

tbh it's not up to us to decide who any given lesbian would or should date

Quote from: Brandon on June 16, 2016, 12:31:37 AM
Ill say it again how many of those lesbians would date biological men though? I see y'all keep bypassing that tho lbvs.

I don't know how many would, nor do I care. That's her decision, and it isn't my place to hate on her, her partner, or their relationship by questioning its validity or how either of them identify.

Quote from: WorkingOnThomas on June 17, 2016, 02:46:48 PM
I don't know how many would, nor do I care. That's her decision, and it isn't my place to hate on her, her partner, or their relationship by questioning its validity or how either of them identify.

Who's hating on their relationship cuz I sure as heck ain't lol, I just think it does not make any type of since to date a lesbian if you are a man. No since at all. Its whatever floats his little boat tho.

Well, there's having an opinion, and there's having an opinion and stating it so many times that the thread becomes about you instead of the OP...

Quote from: Peep on June 17, 2016, 06:09:31 PM
Well, there's having an opinion, and there's having an opinion and stating it so many times that the thread becomes about you instead of the OP...

You know what Imma be nice, I apologize if I offended anyone with my views I haven't been in the best if moods, no I still don't agree with lesbians dating trans men or vice versa . I have certain views and Imma stick with them but I'd appreciate if y'all would hop off my tip because of the views that I hold. You wanna stay with her fine but I do still think its confusion.

Locked.

I think we should have lessons on discussion, debate and passing on information.

I think we should also have a review of our opinions on tolerance and acceptance.

If you disagree with someone why not say 'I disagree, you do not seem to understand my point, let us move on.

There are many instances in history, even recent events, that this attitude was not taken and all it results in is pain.

Cindy