Quote from: Denya on June 20, 2016, 07:34:50 PM
If everybody was brothers and sisters, we wouldn't have so many hate crimes. We don't have the luxury of seeing everything through the lenses of optimism and utopia.

Also, this is not a matter of wanting to look like a supermodel or Kim Kardashian. It is not even about being superficial. It's about quality of life and trying to blend in to avoid problems

Denya,

Not to gang up on you but I have issues with your arguments. 

I have to disagree with your first point, right off. If everyone were brothers and sisters it does not follow that there would be no hate crimes. It just means we have something in common(and we do). However, Hate comes from learned behavior, fear or misunderstanding(typically not being able to understand is at the root of most of it). That happens within families as well.

Optimism is not a luxury. It is a way of living. To be optimistic is not to be utopian. It is a way of traveling to improve the quality of one's life. Even when it sucks. Optimism can make dealing with severely challenging situations (situational, medical, mental) bearable. To live with ones head down all the time, looking for the worst in every situation may surprise you when something bad doesn't happen. It also makes the life about just surviving not living.

I am not saying to be pollyanna and believe you will turn into a magical (fill in the blank). I agree that one should not expect miracles from HRT. I have not been on long but I have experienced more than a placebo effect. So yes, encourage each other to face their transitions with realism but encourage them. This is a frightening thing we do and judicious encouragement and support can help. If we approach it in this matter, (not just expecting nothing) we may be pleasantly surprised that we progress further than we anticipated.

Your responses remind me of some previous members we have had. They seem to have regretted their choices and it felt like they took it out on our members. As a moderator I will say we tend to stop that. As a member I would say; we all have regrets and we all have challenges(trans, cis, humans) it is how we handle them that sets us apart.

I am sure we both know that RobynD did not mean or say anything about security. She is saying what I just argued about optimism. Likewise kittenpower did not suggest any sort of thing about others being anything. She is giving her perspective. Not telling you have to be like her. Let's remember Terms of Service #5:

Quote5. The posting of messages on the chat or forums which are of a threatening tone; intended solely to communicate sarcasm, contempt, or derision; are intended to belittle or ridicule a person or group; to disgust the viewer; contain obscene or pornographic materials; which are intended to titillate; or which depicts/promotes illegal acts; will not be permitted.

Here is why I think that: A while back I was looking at a webpage of a girl doing fashion reviews. She looked like MTF, but turned out to be cis. Why then, did I thought she was MTF? well, her picture and youtube video's reminded me of someone here on the forum... her jaw looked very much like a guy would have, some bossing and large nose. I made some kind of cross-judgment based upon what I was exposed to before. So I linked the two together and made a snap judgment, but reality was different: she was 100% cis, when I read about her life and pregnancy

You cannot possibly determine anything in pictures. There are extreme cases where you can tell a transsexual right away from the pictures, however, in most cases, you cannot. I have friends who are very unpassable but manage to look decent in pictures with right angle and right lighting. Again, you cannot possibly say anything based on pictures alone, especially when you do not have a frame of reference. I hear all the time that Angelina Jolie has a strong masculine jaw and looks manly. That cannot be further from the truth. If you see her next to a man, you will realize that her jaw is infinitely smaller than the man's jaw. In a similar fashion, if any transsexual takes a picture by herself, she might look passable. Put her next to a genetic woman and the differences are abysmal. One has to be seen in real life, 360 degree. That's when you can determine if one passes or not. Saying that a ciswoman looks trans based on pictures alone is a moot point, because then you see them in real life and you realize they don't even remotely look trans.





Not sure if it makes life easier for everyone... I held that assumption, but came to realize that passing doesn't guarantee quality of life.


If passing doesn't not guarantee quality of life, imagine not passing and being mocked, ridiculed, harassed on the street every day. This is like denying the undeniable. Passing is necessary but not sufficient. Yes, of course, if you pass and you have a problem like cancer, of course you are going to be very unhappy. But that's a stretch and far-fetched argument. Being able to navigate through the world without being harassed, ridiculed, mocked and even attacked is priceless. I can't believe we are still debating about the undebatable. I am very surprised that there are posters who claim that passing and not passing are the same thing.




Well, body language and attitude is important. I don't think you can lump those together with having surgeries to remove the effects of testosterone. They all stand on their own, and are all important to some degree. Because conversely, no amount of surgery can make you female if you aren't one.

The point is not about being female. I know I will never be a cis-woman. I get it. I know I will never change my chromosomes. I get it. And, to be honest with you, I do not even want to be a born female. I just want to reach a point where people don't question my gender and I don't need to explain.

I have been called a goddess and a freak, and everything in between. I've been clocked multiple times, and I've been praised as "a beautiful woman" multiple times. What's the difference? different people, difference in perception.

I have never seen you so I cannot say anything specific to you, but, if someone who is very unpassable goes to trans-clubs, they get compliments from everybody and especially trans-admirers tell you that you are a goddess. If you spend every day of the week in trans-clubs, you end up having a distorted perception of the world. You think you pass even when you don't and you have the false belief that ALL men like trans women. I am guilty of that when, years ago, I used to go to clubs a lot. The real world is completely different. Imagine someone was born and raised in an African country where everybody is black and they have never seen any other human who is not black. They will automatically assume that the rest of the world is black too. My example is just to emphasize that compliments or feedback in the transgender community is pretty useless.



How do you know you are 100% certain? you don't, and you never know because you never asked. You had a hunch, that's all. I've seen cis men and woman in all shapes and sizes, even cis-woman who look like drags in real life, only to discover that they were cis later on.

Trust and believe, I am 100% sure and, in fact, one of my friend told me that she uses to go to trans meetings. I am beyond certain. There is no room for doubt. This was not a hunch but a certainty.

Joanna,

if I am not welcome, I will leave. I have not offended nor insulted nor derided anybody. I am opinionated and I want to share my experience, since I think I have things to say. I am walking on eggshells, at this point. If I am not welcome and I have to be constantly reminded that I am being offensive (when I am not), I will just leave.

Best Regards

Denya,

You seem to feel we are in a world of black and white. Welcome/unwelcome, offended/not offended, pass/don't pass.

You are welcome. You have not offended. However, your strong opinions may be read as rude. While you may not intend to deride any members, some may feel it that way. The answers you provide to defend your position, suggest that others live in a utopia. That could be read as a insulting or belittling.

I am simply letting you know how others might read what you have written.

I appreciate the warnings you have placed and they are good for us all to keep in mind. However, there should be a little room for the other point of view.

So, relax and please be aware of how what you write can be read.

Warmly,

Joanna

Wells said. I appreciate everyone's opinions and i share many of the same thoughts and concerns. I will not dwell on what i am not though, i will improve and get wiser, love people more, and treat people better, creator willing.

I'm losing weight again - other than having to buy more clothes (darn shopping again?!), it is an example of how i try to make myself better and more healthy. I'd also love to get brush on eyeliner to work for me, but i fear i may never get there.

I'm not being superficial I'm just being positive and happy. So sue me

If that is Utopia - i want to be Princess there.

Quote from: RobynD on June 21, 2016, 07:09:39 PM
I'd also love to get brush on eyeliner to work for me, but i fear i may never get there.

I think I missed this part. What do you mean brush on eyeliner and that you fear you might never get there?

Quote from: Denya on June 21, 2016, 12:44:44 PM
Joanna,

if I am not welcome, I will leave. .........

Quote from: Joanna50 on June 21, 2016, 01:05:01 PM
Denya,

You seem to feel we are in a world of black and white. Welcome/unwelcome, offended/not offended, pass/don't pass.

I think you have a lot to say Denya, which is wonderful and something I personally would encourage in any situation that requires a healthy discussion. Although having said that I can see a pattern to your replies that remind me a lot of a client I am currently work with. She is extremely negative and a perfect example of the 12 year old with the "but syndrome". Insofar as everything has a but inserted in it followed but a negative perception based response that serves only to transfer her self-loathing onto others.


A perfect example would be as follows:

Quote from: Denya on June 21, 2016, 12:41:36 PM



I have been called a goddess and a freak, and everything in between. I've been clocked multiple times, and I've been praised as "a beautiful woman" multiple times. What's the difference? different people, difference in perception.

...... but, if someone who is very unpassable goes to trans-clubs, they get compliments from everybody and especially trans-admirers tell you that you are a goddess. If you spend every day of the week in trans-clubs, you end up having a distorted perception of the world. You think you pass even when you don't and you have the false belief that ALL men like trans women. I am guilty of that when, years ago, I used to go to clubs a lot. The real world is completely different. Imagine someone was born and raised in an African country where everybody is black and they have never seen any other human who is not black. They will automatically assume that the rest of the world is black too. My example is just to emphasize that compliments or feedback in the transgender community is pretty useless.

I am sorry but this screams I had a negative experience and now I want everyone else to feel hurt like me

Quote
How do you know you are 100% certain? you don't, and you never know because you never asked. You had a hunch, that's all. I've seen cis men and woman in all shapes and sizes, even cis-woman who look like drags in real life, only to discover that they were cis later on.

Trust and believe, I am 100% sure and, in fact, one of my friend told me that she uses to go to trans meetings. I am beyond certain. There is no room for doubt. This was not a hunch but a certainty.

No such thing as an absolute thankfully or life in the sciences would be ever so boring and uneventful.

I hope you take this feedback on board and grow from it... BUT!! That is up to you.

There is fine line in being realistic and jaded. I say why don't we examine the context that we live in and from there realize that our context gives us the rules that we live by in turn shapes the way we see reality.

Context will change the game for you Denya. Choose something to empower you than to discourage you.

Quote from: Denya on June 21, 2016, 12:41:36 PM
You think you pass even when you don't and you have the false belief that ALL men like trans women.

I should take this as an insult, but I don't. I guess misery seeks company, or you have an agenda based upon your post count and the rehashing of what we all already know. Either way, I don't have time for this game. Sorry!

My experience with others has been wonderful and I am certain I am NEVER read or at the very least, extremely rarely. I doubt I would have had all the opportunities or attention from guys had I not passed. I, myself, was my biggest critic and was somewhat paranoid but time after time, experiences have confirmed I was wrong and it was all in my head. When I first told my co-workers I was trans, because I was convinced they knew anyways and wanted to let it all come out in the open, the first thing the girl working with me said upon learning I was about to make an announcement..."you are pregnant, aren't you?" and then finding out about me, total silence, amazement, it was clear they had no clue, one girl, a lesbian, even said, I must have been a hermaphrodite but I wasn't. And I can relate many other similar experiences, where, for instance, I was dressed androgynous and still called miss or madam. 

My intention here is not to brag but to show that what was asserted by the original poster is not always the case and that what we think in our heads is often not the reality of things, that we should put our thoughts and beliefs to the test, like we would in scientific context, to really find out if we are right or wrong. My paranoia is not totally gone, I still have fears but I feel much better now than I did years ago. Hormones have also helped a lot in rounding my face, softening my body to hide my bone structure which wasn't particularly masculine anyways.

And there are times, I am shopping or just walking in the street or even having a convo with friends and family at a restaurant or coffee shop and stop giving a rat's A$% about what others think because it gets TIRESOME, this is my life and I have the right to be ME, to express myself as I deem right in my heart. The joy that comes out of this, the freedom is truly amazing. When you stop caring, life takes on a new meaning so even if we pass or not, who cares?

To everyone reading this, don't get caught up in the negativity and be held back by a black cloud...follow your heart, be vulnerable, be you and trust, just trust that everything will be alright and that you are on the right path. Hugs and kisses to all, you are all amazing for just having the courage to be YOU.

My 2 cents...

Wonderful post KayXo!

Indeed, enjoy... life is already so short and filled with negativity, the last thing we need is more of that. 

Quote from: Denya on June 21, 2016, 08:29:31 PM
I think I missed this part. What do you mean brush on eyeliner and that you fear you might never get there?

Just one of the makeup things i am having trouble mastering.

The main thing, to me, is that there's some confirmation bias: the people who are not "clocked" can't (by definition) be counted among the "trans people we have spotted." (You also don't know that the woman you saw in line was trans, unless she confirmed it for you; not just that sometimes cis women get clocked, but that you literally do not know. You can't add her to the list of trans women you've clocked unless you do know for certain.) This comes up whenever passing is discussed, too, but I tend to think of "blending in" as more than a phrase; my goal is to be basically invisible in a crowd. If I'm dressed and look just like any other middle-aged woman, I have to say, I don't find people staring at me at all.

Since self-consciousness and paranoia are likely to make one stand out (and not mentally healthy, either!), it really does no good to encourage those feelings. Sure, some people are probably telling little white lies to trans women. So what? Those trans women are better off going through life focusing on *life* than second-guessing every conversation or interaction they ever have...

There is a bigoted woman who is making a hobby of going to Targets and screaming into a megaphone about "men in the bathroom" and whatnot. (You can look her up.) She was in MA in the very Target I was shopping in fairly recently, and I walked right past her into the women's room. While I was in there, security asked her to leave, mind you; I wouldn't have risked it if I hadn't been 1000% sure both the store and the state had my back. She never gave me a second glance. And yet I bet if you asked her, she'd tell you she can spot every single one of those perverts immediately. She, too, doesn't have a list of trans people she didn't notice, because she *can't.* She only knows the ones she did spot (and the cis women she was mistaken about).

Quote from: 2cherry on June 22, 2016, 08:29:22 AM
I should take this as an insult, but I don't. I guess misery seeks company, or you have an agenda based upon your post count and the rehashing of what we all already know. Either way, I don't have time for this game. Sorry!

"Misery seeks company" - wise words.

I took anti-depressants for several years. When I decided I was ready to try living without them, my most negative friend who has been on them for decades started with her warnings, her "oh dears", her "you'll be back" stuff. It was as if I was betraying her by leaving it behind and she went heavy on keeping me in the club.

Alternatively a friend who is utterly positive, and turned her own life around (from being a miserable size 22 UK, to a clean eating, yoga practicing size 12), couldn't have been more encouraging.

Some people just need to drag you down into their own hell.

Quote from: RobynD on June 22, 2016, 11:11:50 AM
Just one of the makeup things i am having trouble mastering.

Do you mean liquid eyeliner?

I don't think many people are very good at that. Kohl is better and requires less of a steady hand. I like a dark grey, with a nude colour on the bottom waterline.

Quote from: alex82 on June 22, 2016, 02:20:59 PM
Do you mean liquid eyeliner?

I don't think many people are very good at that. Kohl is better and requires less of a steady hand. I like a dark grey, with a nude colour on the bottom waterline.

Exactly - so far it has been pencils/crayons or felt tips for me. I do have some liquid but i have not got it to the point where i like it yet.

The liquid isnt too bad.. its the hand shakes (depression and stress) etc that makes mine fail.. and well its the eye.. tho the more i practise, the better i an getting. But alas the shakes make for interestibg lines lolz.... but for me i am aiming to get lessons from a pro (who does tg makeup here for photo shoots etc..).

I am even plan a session where she does ny makeup to look well normal.. and then lessons and maybe in a year i will do a photoshoot for me [emoji1]

Sent from my SM-N915G using Tapatalk

Quote from: RobynD on June 22, 2016, 03:16:29 PM
Exactly - so far it has been pencils/crayons or felt tips for me. I do have some liquid but i have not got it to the point where i like it yet.

The line of liquid is too sharp for me. If you haven't already, start in the middle of the eyelid and work out. Then do the inner half. It's easier that way.

Quote from: Sarah leah on June 22, 2016, 06:27:50 AM
12 year old with the "but syndrome". Insofar as everything has a but inserted in it followed but a negative perception based response that serves only to transfer her self-loathing onto others.

Thanks for this. I might be suffering from that. Whether it's caused by my living inside the wrong body or not, I can't tell, but I'll try to focus on that feeling and maybe even correct it if I notice in time.

<3

Quote from: Jenna Marie on June 22, 2016, 12:36:35 PM
The main thing, to me, is that there's some confirmation bias: the people who are not "clocked" can't (by definition) be counted among the "trans people we have spotted."

True... though someone has to *very* passable to not be read by others TSes.

Quote
(You also don't know that the woman you saw in line was trans, unless she confirmed it for you; not just that sometimes cis women get clocked, but that you literally do not know. You can't add her to the list of trans women you've clocked unless you do know for certain.)

I do believe that for those of us who have been around awhile, our rates of false positives are low... and lower than our rate false negatives (someone not read who is TS). That has been my experience.

After awhile you learn that one even strongly masculine feature does not mean someone is TS... but a constellation of certain features and one can be reasonably sure.

Quote
This comes up whenever passing is discussed, too, but I tend to think of "blending in" as more than a phrase; my goal is to be basically invisible in a crowd. If I'm dressed and look just like any other middle-aged woman, I have to say, I don't find people staring at me at all.

If one's build is not too far from the normal range expected for females that is true. Most people just don't pay that much attention to strangers unless something out of the ordinary attracts their attention. Being good looking is something that does attract attention , so those that are good looking need to have more ducks in a row so to speak.

That said one does not want to always be invisible... certainly not in social and often times not in work situations.

Quote
Since self-consciousness and paranoia are likely to make one stand out (and not mentally healthy, either!), it really does no good to encourage those feelings.

I agree with with that 100%... dwelling on it can cause a lot of emotional problems.

But I also think it is a good idea for one to have some realistic objective sense of how well they do pass.

While the world in general is much more accepting than it used to be, if you don't pass very well certain places and situations are best avoided... and if you do pass well no need to limit yourself.

One thing that got me angry years ago were those on-line who always attributed someone who talked about getting read to their being self conscious... Anyone who says passing is ALL attitude is very much mistaken.

Quote
There is a bigoted woman who is making a hobby of going to Targets and screaming into a megaphone about "men in the bathroom" and whatnot. (You can look her up.) She was in MA in the very Target I was shopping in fairly recently, and I walked right past her into the women's room.

I've not heard of that, but then again I don't shop at Target and don't have ties these days to the local T community... What town was that in? (I live in MA)

- Karen