Quote from: JMJW on July 24, 2016, 09:09:30 AM
The answer is transphobia. The hatred of transition.

A transwoman is almost always more obviously trans than a transman so receives more notoriety and bigotry.

It's easier for trans men to pass than trans women in many cases... When it comes to medical treatment it's because testosterone is stronger and more effective than estrogen generally.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on July 24, 2016, 10:59:27 AM
It's easier for trans men to pass than trans women in many cases... When it comes to medical treatment it's because testosterone is stronger and more effective than estrogen generally.

Agree 100% and yet isn't it strange.  What trans men seek from testosterone are male qualities like strength (physical strength and also a more subtle kind of strength that comes from feeling authentically male) while what trans women seek from estrogen are female qualities like less physical strength and softness.

You definitely have potential and HRT should do a lot for you. Hugs
Mariah

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on July 24, 2016, 07:52:29 AM
Does anybody understand or can explain to me why, if women are the less powerful gender in the world, which is true, why are the boundaries of "woman" and "feminine" policed so viciously?

I am getting 50/50 ma'am/sir'd all day long but nobody makes negative comments and even the staring is more curious than harsh. The exception is women's restroom which is why I hate going in there but feel like I have to if I don't pass. But trans women get garbage thrown at them (verbally or literally) all day long. Cops arrest them for walking down the street. What the heck is this obsession? Why do we care? It's not a forgone conclusion, for example in other countries, like Pakistan, hijras are just a normal kind of person in everyday life and nobody thinks twice about it.

Julia Serano calls it "effemimania" which I think is a terrible coinage and I understand her argument but don't find it convincing, that femininity is policed because of the hatred and contempt of femininity. The latter part is true, all true, but I don't see the hatred being tossed at trans women being mostly of the variety to wit: I'm a man, and you 'trying to be a woman' makes men look bad because it's obvious that no man would ever want to be a woman and you're causing me cognitive dissonance. No! It's more of the variety of "How dare she "pretend" to be a woman!" As if being a woman is an awesome prize that everyone is trying to get! Having lived as a woman for (counting from 18) 18 ****ing years, I can't understand this mentality in the slightest. Who wants to be a woman when you get crapped on every single day? Not heard, bullied, paid less, sexually harassed, etc, etc?? Obviously an MTF is that way because they can't help being who they are, not because being a woman is a big fat lark. It's not!!!

Why is our society so sick this way. What a sick joke. We'll dump on you every day for being a woman, but how dare someone "try" (like you have a choice being a woman, right?) to be a woman, we'll get you for that. Projection much? Do women hate themselves this much? (I hope not, right?) Do men? I don't get it.

The answer is simple, they don't see you as a man and they don't see me as a woman, they in general wouldn't really abuse a woman, but they don't see me as a woman atall.
You, they still see as a woman, and won't give you the same abuse!, it's still the same they don't believe in trans either way, it's really comes down to sexism, men wont abuse a woman as bad, and females are less agressive than men too so I don't think they are the main players in abuse to trans people
Just what I think I may be wrong

Quote from: ChristineRachel on July 24, 2016, 02:12:44 PM
The answer is simple, they don't see you as a man and they don't see me as a woman, they in general wouldn't really abuse a woman, but they don't see me as a woman atall.
You, they still see as a woman, and won't give you the same abuse!, it's still the same they don't believe in trans either way, it's really comes down to sexism, men wont abuse a woman as bad, and females are less agressive than men too so I don't think they are the main players in abuse to trans people
Just what I think I may be wrong

I doesn't think sexism is always the case. Some transphobic people are transphobic anyway. But for some of them it might be easier to spot a trans woman than a trans man. In many cases trans men pass easier than trans women, due stronger hormones. T is stronger than estrogen.

I'm pretty sure it's because the bigots see us as men and you as women.  So you get a pass.

Quote from: Deborah on July 24, 2016, 02:56:21 PM
I'm pretty sure it's because the bigots see us as men and you as women.  So you get a pass.

Exactly!

I agree that trans women get more abuse than trans men, but I definitely don't think that trans men being seen as female would give them 'a pass' from violence - it's not like there is never verbal or physical violence towards women, trans or cis. Particularly women that deviate from the norm or have opinions. We're just less visible

I have a rather depressing theory.

There are two kinds of values and functions prized and vital to humanity above all others. 

1) The ability to give birth.
2) The ability to provide and protect.

Trans men pre HRT retain fertility. Post HRT is perceived as stronger and tougher. Society sees value there either way.

Transwomen can't give birth either way, and is seen as losing strength and toughness post hrt, so is seen as losing the ability to provide and protect.  So society sees no value.

Even men just dressing feminine*, get perceived as being unwilling to provide and protect and instead is displaying a wish to be provided for.

From that point on you're seen as valueless. Therefore disposable. That's why transwomen are murdered and police barely bother to investigate. That's  why trans panic defense is accepted, and why they want you to go to the mens bathroom and don't care about the risk to you.

If this theory has any truth to it, feminine men or transwomen outside of the wealthy, may never be accepted as much as women who dress and act masculine or transmen even.








 

Quote from: JMJW on July 24, 2016, 03:50:15 PM
I have a rather depressing theory.

There are two kinds of values and functions prized and vital to humanity above all others. 

1) The ability to give birth.
2) The ability to provide and protect.

Trans men pre HRT retain fertility. Post HRT is perceived as stronger and tougher. Society sees value there either way.

Transwomen can't give birth either way, and is seen as losing strength and toughness post hrt, so is seen as losing the ability to provide and protect.  So society sees no value.

Even men just dressing feminine*, get perceived as being unwilling to provide and protect and instead is displaying a wish to be provided for.

From that point on you're seen as valueless. Therefore disposable. That's why transwomen are murdered and police barely bother to investigate. That's  why trans panic defense is accepted, and why they want you to go to the mens bathroom and don't care about the risk to you.

If this theory has any truth to it, feminine men or transwomen outside of the wealthy, may never be accepted as much as women who dress and act masculine or transmen even. 

I don't think that is really true. I mean, it's pretty wrist-slittingly depressing if it is.
And it also means that Cis-women who cannot bear children are also 'worthless', and I really don't think that is the case either. I have on many occasions been asked when I'm going to have children, (I guess in those instances I passed), and it's painful to admit both inwardly and outwardly that I cannot have them, but then being judged as worthless is a bit harsh, no?
There are already too many people on this earth (IMO), so maybe more trans people about isn't necessarily a bad thing...

As a trans woman, what always amazes me is strangers who 5 seconds ago didn't care if I lived or died are suddenly really invested in me being a man.  To the point of insulting me.

Which leads me to Jane's Law:  A non-passing trans woman will get insulted in 10% of all social interactions.

Again, while trans men are less of a target, I still don't think society really looks favourably on what it sees as on gender non-conforming women (as pre T trans men are often perceived as ie 'masculine women'), regardless of whether or not they're having kids

In face a lot of abuse directed at trans men is because they have retained those parts pertinent to fertility. I don't think it's seen as something of value.

And there are transitioned out trans men that have kids - some even breast feed - and I doubt that they have an easy time