Hey, sorry to bug anyone, this just confuses me and I tend to be very logical about facts rather than emotions when it comes to things.

Thing is, I always tend to use 'transgender' rather than 'transsexual' if even referring to someone as trans at all. Although trannsexual is more of a specific term loosely defining someone who is post-op, it isnt literally correct.

Those objecting to the idea of transgender people will often bring up the fact that transmen and women are not men and woman but 'masculinized women' and 'feminized males'. This is backed by the clear biological and karyotypical fact that all men and women cannot change their genetic makeup, they are all XX or XY, and this cannot be undone. SRS is merely a close imitation of the physical genitalia of the proper sex as well, rather than making correct genitals, they see it as butchering or creating facades.

While yes, technically on a biological basis they were what they were born, I rather think they focus far too much on the physical traits rather than the overall traits of gender, which encompass more than genes  and genital, and the fact that natural-born sex is unchangeable does not make transgenders a fraud.

I hope my understanding of this doesnt make me a naysayer in the community, but I dont quite get 'transsexualism' in any literal use and context. Sex/Gender will always be two different things, and I find it rather delusional to discard ones own sex entirely just for peace of mind. (Though ignoring it and treating it just as a part of ones own life, not identifying as 'trans', etc. Is another thing entirely)

It's just an older style word that developed before there was much understanding about the gendered nature of what being trans entailed. Some people still use it to describe themselves whether they are pre or post op, and that is their right and prerogative. It's all semantics and one way or another means the same thing so I wouldn't get too bothered by it.

The word trans has really confused the issue. I am a former transsexual because a transsexual is one who wishes to change their gender. I underwent surgery and now live as a woman and I no longer desire to change my gender. The word transgender would also apply as transsexualism is one of many possible conditions covered under the term transgender. It is a bit old fashion but  prefer the term transsexual when applied to me because it's more specific but we used the term transgender even when I transitioned.

From my understanding transexual is an old fashioned word for someone who doesn't identify as their assigned gender; invented back in the day when all transgender people had to have all the surgeries to be considered a 'real' transgender person and to fit into society; as the primary goal back then was to tell noone you were transgender and to just live your life (now we have more of a choice to take part in activism and to be more out than we had before). The word is still only used by the medical field to describe an invidual who's had a sex change. But recently the word transgender was invented which works better and is more accurate; because we know now that not all trans people want that surgery. We also now know there are other gender identities than the binary and saying you're trans is a good way of explaining that to people.

I recognize the terminology that I'm expected to use on the site, and I understand that "transgender" is to be used as an umbrella term. Consistent terminology here is necessary to avoid confusion and division. Choosing not to use "transgender" to refer to myself is my prerogative as long as I do not gainsay the site terminology or deny the umbrella.

In my head, I already had a male identity, a male gender. So I am crossing gender only as far as other people's perceptions are concerned. This is one big reason I do not refer to myself as "transgender." At the same time, I recognize that I fit under the "transgender" umbrella as Susan's Place defines it. But I do not use that term to refer to myself, nor do I appreciate it when other people tell me that the term is "better" than other, more specific, terms that I do use to define myself.

I call myself "transsexual" because my brain tells me that I am male, not female, and because I want to change, have changed, or will be changing as many physical sex characteristics as I can--both primary and secondary.

In my understanding, the term transsexual refers to someone who specifically changes the status and appearance of their biological sex.

Transgender could describe crossing boundaries of prescribed roles, expectations, etc. without necessarily altering biological characteristics, and includes people who do not transition. The word gender is a broader descriptor than the term sex (biological sex) and refers more to how we classify ourselves mentally and out in the world. Transsexual is a more specific term, and I use it instead of transgender to describe myself, because I am more concerned with the appearance of the body and the biological sex than other things. I don't think of myself as a female changing to a male, or crossing roles and genders, I think of myself as a male changing female-like body characteristics to male ones. A guy with gynaecomastia doesn't usually think of himself as a transgender person if he gets the problem fixed. Neither do I.

It's interesting reading the different opinions. For me personally I don't like the word transexual to describe myself because it's too focused on the sex part. What my sexual parts are has got nothing to with what my gender is. I also don't like the word sexual in the word because it is not a sexuality. The word transexual goes back to when medical professionals thought trans people were people who felt the opposite gender they were assigned and were straight. Of course as we know that's not always true. I usw the word trans to describe myself partly because that's still a large part of my life as I'm still early in medical transitioning and because it's an umbrella term to express other gender identities.

 I don't like the word transgender because it is defined so broadly that it does not communicate a clear and precise idea of what one is trying to communicate.  So if I'm talking about myself I use transsexual or trans.  The first is precise and the second is my compromise with transgender.  I can understand why others like the word transgender but it's root meaning is to change or move across gender categories.  My gender is not confused and I'm not changing that at all.  The body "sex" part is the problem.

Although, come to think of it maybe transgender does apply to the male avatar I have so carefully built over the years.  So if I do nothing I am transgender although that reverses what most people understand it to mean.

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on July 31, 2016, 12:34:16 AM
Those objecting to the idea of transgender people will often bring up the fact that transmen and women are not men and woman but 'masculinized women' and 'feminized males'. This is backed by the clear biological and karyotypical fact that all men and women cannot change their genetic makeup, they are all XX or XY, and this cannot be undone. SRS is merely a close imitation of the physical genitalia of the proper sex as well, rather than making correct genitals, they see it as butchering or creating facades.

While yes, technically on a biological basis they were what they were born, I rather think they focus far too much on the physical traits rather than the overall traits of gender, which encompass more than genes  and genital, and the fact that natural-born sex is unchangeable does not make transgenders a fraud.

Biological determinism reduces a human being to the state of a mechanical device.  I sense we are more than that and possess a divine spirit.  This spirit, however it is joined to the mechanical device of the body, is who I am.

It amazes me that the ones that hold most strongly to this idea of humans as a mechanical device are the ones that so loudly proclaim the spirit. 

To me a transsexual is someone who has a deep need to change BOTH their societal gender role AND their physicality as much as humanly possible  to that for the opposite biological sex to be at peace. But the need to change physicality is NOT PRIMARLY based in the need for filling a social role... In fact I think the need to fill the social role comes more from the physical incongruity rather than teh other way around. The need to be accepted for what one knows oneself to be.

To me transgender speaks to being attracted to all or some aspects of the social role of the other biological sex to some degree. That means it is an umbrella terms that covers a huge spectrum that includes transsexuals as well as some who never transition.

This is just my own opinion and I don't expect (or require) everyone to agree with me.

- Karen

Quote from: Elis on July 31, 2016, 07:27:46 AM
It's interesting reading the different opinions. For me personally I don't like the word transexual to describe myself because it's too focused on the sex part. What my sexual parts are has got nothing to with what my gender is. I also don't like the word sexual in the word because it is not a sexuality. The word transexual goes back to when medical professionals thought trans people were people who felt the opposite gender they were assigned and were straight.

Yes, "transsexual" does seem somewhat archaic, but it does emphasize what the medical community can see, touch, and treat, and as someone who desires medical intervention for my gender dysphoria, I can appreciate that connection.  Gender is a more nebulous concept, and there is no lab test for it.

Quote from: Deborah on July 31, 2016, 07:55:42 AM
I don't like the word transgender because it is defined so broadly that it does not communicate a clear and precise idea of what one is trying to communicate.  So if I'm talking about myself I use transsexual or trans.  The first is precise and the second is my compromise with transgender.  I can understand why others like the word transgender but it's root meaning is to change or move across gender categories.  My gender is not confused and I'm not changing that at all.  The body "sex" part is the problem.

Transgender seems like a "gentler" term, and I will use it in reference to myself mostly because many (cis)people get very distracted with any term that has "sex" in it.  Transsexual somehow comes across as lurid, but I think it is a more accurate term. I am changing my physical sex, insofar as I am able, not my gender.  For that reason, I never liked the designation "gender correction surgery", or "gender reassignment surgery".  My gender is not getting corrected or reassigned.  My biological sex is.

With kindness,

Terri 

While you are free to identify however you wish, the medical community has standard definitions which agree with the standard definitions we use on the site. The link will take you to the full set but I extracted the primary part for this thread.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html


Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

Androgyne: An androgynous person

Androgynous: Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior.

Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Drag kings: performers, usually gay women or transgendered men - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the male gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag kings often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Drag queens: performers, usually gay men or transgendered women - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the female gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag queens often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Intersexual: a person born with the full or partial sex organs of both sexes; with underdeveloped or ambiguous sex organs; a sex chromosome karyotype other than XX or XY; or sex hormone receptor problems which prevent normal absorption of Estrogen or Androgens. Intersexual persons may seek to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

Significant other: for the purpose of this site, someone close to a person who is transgender. This may be a mother, father, son, daughter, sister, brother, family member, husband, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, or friend.

Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments.

->-bleeped-<-: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

The media is much to blame for the term "transsexual" falling out of use. Shows such as Jerry Springer have done a lot of harm. While "transsexual" invites enough criticism in the public eye, it is a perfectly acceptable term to use on this site.

Quote from: Deborah on July 31, 2016, 07:55:42 AM
I don't like the word transgender because it is defined so broadly that it does not communicate a clear and precise idea of what one is trying to communicate.

I feel the same way.  "Transgender" is such a broad and all-inclusive term that it basically means nothing.  I don't mind labeling myself as a transsexual, because I identify as a woman and am medically transitioning.

But I also agree with Lady Sarah that TV shows such as Jerry Springer did a lot of harm to the term transsexual, so sometimes I prefer not to use it.  For example, when I speak with cis people, I refer to myself as transgender.  Besides, to most cis people, transgender is equivalent to transsexual.  Within the transgender community though, I refer to myself as a transsexual.

i said earlier:

Quote
In fact I think the need to fill the social role comes more from the physical incongruity rather than teh other way around.

I realized that statement might need some amplification.

There are more than few ggs that chafe and many aspects of the societal role defined as females, yet they have no desire to be male, nor do they wish to be perceived as male, because that is not who they are. Some fit the social role better than others. but regardless of degree they still want to be seen as females... (if not they would be T*)

In the same way, because a transsexual knows themselves to be innately female,  they need to physical change sex ... and that is regardless of how much they may or may not be attracted to or inanely fit the social role assigned to females ... but regardless of that they still wish to be seen and recognized as female human beings they know themselves to be. The social expectations that go along with that are just what they have to deal with, just as other women do.


As I said those are just my opinions.

- Karen
 

I don't mind the term transsexual as it's the term I've heard used for many years.  I used both transgender and transsexual in the first paragraph of the letter I sent to family and friends.  "... I am a transgender human being. The common word, although it is falling out of use, is I am transsexual," was what I wrote.  I used both because I wanted everyone to really understand what I was saying and to cisgender people, transsexual would convey the idea more efficiently.   Even among our community the way people use the words are different.  Dena said, "I am a former transsexual because a transsexual is one who wishes to change their gender."  Yet a friend of mine who had GRS in April, 1998 said, "I am post-op but I will always be a transsexual woman."  And you know what?  Dena and my friend are both correct because that is how they view themselves which is what's really important. 

I find this very confusing as I don't even know exactly what I am, will be. Not only my body and mind is in transition, also  is my sexual orientation, or maybe I was attracted by men before but the social pressure made me store this far away, anyways, very confusing... What is my gender? The others, the society decides that. I'm not becoming female, it's just that any maleness I had, both forged following social pressure and biochemically, has vanished. What is left is me, not sure what gender, who I am...

so how to call myself... 

besides in my language, the word genre (gender) cannot really apply to persons, so the word transgenre is kind of weird but commonly used and I'm really not sure what people have in mind when we say that here, and I don't know what word they use in France.

Just Trans for now or transsexual

corrector here says transsexualism is the right word, ->-bleeped-<- doesn't exist

since I don't think I will ever be able to ''hide the fact I was male before'', never will be able to go unnoticed, call that to pass or however, I think I rather embrace a trans identity, as I feel very good with my body just as it is now + more HRT, I just don't know how to call that yet. What about the term queer, is that more generic, more specific, does it apply to people all mixed up like me? 

My view on it: I'm transsexual because I have taken medical steps to alter my physical sex. I am also transgender because anyone that is transsexual is also transgender, since transgender is an umbrella term. Not everyone who is transgender is also transsexual.

Makes sense all thank you for clarifying your thoughts on this, sorry if my wording could have ruffled a few feathers, I just realized that now. And regarding semantics the term is rather specific. Youre right though people should be allowed to use the terms they see fit and not be forced into something.


As far as my personal trans identity goes, I guess Id be considered 'transsexual' based on the idea I wanted to alter physical elements to look and express myself as the gender I am, but I just cant quite escape the circumstances of my birth entirely, physically I still have characteristics Im not and that determines my sex, which is why I personally do not grasp the term 'transsexual' to the literal extent.


Cheers to you all