I just see it as if we are men and women then why are we pushing this, now I understand that not everyone passes and everything else under the sun but we have been using the bathrooms of our choice so why exactly are we pushing it. I mean a bathroom is a bathroom we simply use it to use the bathroom so I don't understand why we are making a big deal about this maybe its just me but as I have said we have been using the bathroom of our choice and now we are just drawing more attention to the situation and its not needed if you look like who you say you are there is no meed to broadcast it and even if you don't. Just live your life. I don't understand.

We are pushing it because the Republicans are making it illegal.  So you really need to direct your question to them.  A place to start would be contacting the Family Research Council who is the force behind most of these laws.  Good luck.

Its not really the trans folks pushing it though.   Its a convenient "circus issue" for a certain segment of our electorate; and politicians often can't help themselves when they see the masses react to something.  And unfortunately, for their circus we're the lion-bait.

Personally, I don't have a preference as long as the law is clear.   If the law says they want me adjusting my bra and spraying a bit of perfume in the men's restroom, so be it; if things start to get overly violent in the US, my state has shall issue concealed carry, and my bag will fit a 1911 or M9 just fine.   

But its not just about me; some of us have very strong feelings about which restroom to use; and the idea of using the men's restroom while wearing a skirt, or feeling coerced into using the ladies room for FTM folks is just overwhelmingly wrong.

Quote from: Deborah on September 13, 2016, 06:09:22 PM
We are pushing it because the Republicans are making it illegal.  So you really need to direct your question to them.  A place to start would be contacting the Family Research Council who is the force behind most of these laws.  Good luck.

I'm good on that one.

Quote from: rwOnnaDesuKa on September 13, 2016, 06:15:17 PM
Its not really the trans folks pushing it though.   Its a convenient "circus issue" for a certain segment of our electorate; and politicians often can't help themselves when they see the masses react to something.  And unfortunately, for their circus we're the lion-bait.

Personally, I don't have a preference as long as the law is clear.   If the law says they want me adjusting my bra and spraying a bit of perfume in the men's restroom, so be it; if things start to get overly violent in the US, my state has shall issue concealed carry, and my bag will fit a 1911 or M9 just fine.   

But its not just about me; some of us have very strong feelings about which restroom to use; and the idea of using the men's restroom while wearing a skirt, or feeling coerced into using the ladies room for FTM folks is just overwhelmingly wrong.

You could be right and I am not saying that its fair or right to make trans people use the bathroom they aren't comfortable in, its just we have been using the bathroom of our choice already

Quote from: Brandon on September 13, 2016, 09:10:23 PM


You could be right and I am not saying that its fair or right to make trans people use the bathroom they aren't comfortable in, its just we have been using the bathroom of our choice already

For as long as we have been using the restrooms of our choice, it would be cruel to force us back into what we do not want. It is shaming and ridiculing, to say the least. It just smacks of typical troll behavior.

This whole debacle is just another distraction technique by the powers that be--an 'us vs. them' strategy, if you will--that exists solely to rally people together against a common 'threat' (because trans people are a godless blemish on our otherwise sparkly clean society *eyeroll*).

Like rwOnnaDesuKa said, we weren't the ones to bring this (non)issue to light. The Republican party is heavily relying on a good deal of its supporters to be ignorant in regards to trans issues which is why they've been so successful in making it seem like we're (well... namely MTF's) a bunch of lusty predators.
The right is leading these people to believe that they're saving the day by hunting us down. The reactions have ranged anywhere from,
"If I ever catch a man in the bathroom with my daughter, I swear to god I'll kill him"
to the milder (and yet still heinous),
"Well, why don't they just use the bathroom before they leave home? They don't need to go in public".

Unfortunately, this issue primarily affects transwomen. The vast majority of people, when confronted with the fact that transmen exist, simply counter with, "Well, if SHE'S stupid enough to go into a MAN'S bathroom, she deserves it!" without realizing that we typically pass more rapidly and, since men aren't taught to fear their surroundings, we're infinitely less likely to get 'clocked' simply because no one's looking for us.
IE: They don't give a **** about 'human safety' if it's someone on the 'other' team getting hurt. I think the whole lot of them have dismissed transmen as cannon fodder, to be honest, and we're hardly a blip on the radar.
It's a disgusting witch hunt launched by a group of vile filth.

I do agree with you, though, Brandon; it was much simpler before anything was brought to anyone's attention. A lot of people seem really tuned in to picking up little details they otherwise would've never bothered to have noticed. I'd imagine a lot of this will blow over as soon as something else gets kicked up. If nothing else, it's at least opened lines of conversation regarding our existence. Time will tell where that takes us.
We're truly at a pivotal point in history as far as trans rights are concerned.

Quote from: Stone Magnum on September 14, 2016, 12:07:28 AM
This whole debacle is just another distraction technique by the powers that be--an 'us vs. them' strategy, if you will--that exists solely to rally people together against a common 'threat' (because trans people are a godless blemish on our otherwise sparkly clean society *eyeroll*).

Like rwOnnaDesuKa said, we weren't the ones to bring this (non)issue to light. The Republican party is heavily relying on a good deal of its supporters to be ignorant in regards to trans issues which is why they've been so successful in making it seem like we're (well... namely MTF's) a bunch of lusty predators.
The right is leading these people to believe that they're saving the day by hunting us down. The reactions have ranged anywhere from,
"If I ever catch a man in the bathroom with my daughter, I swear to god I'll kill him"
to the milder (and yet still heinous),
"Well, why don't they just use the bathroom before they leave home? They don't need to go in public".

Unfortunately, this issue primarily affects transwomen. The vast majority of people, when confronted with the fact that transmen exist, simply counter with, "Well, if SHE'S stupid enough to go into a MAN'S bathroom, she deserves it!" without realizing that we typically pass more rapidly and, since men aren't taught to fear their surroundings, we're infinitely less likely to get 'clocked' simply because no one's looking for us.
IE: They don't give a **** about 'human safety' if it's someone on the 'other' team getting hurt. I think the whole lot of them have dismissed transmen as cannon fodder, to be honest, and we're hardly a blip on the radar.
It's a disgusting witch hunt launched by a group of vile filth.

I do agree with you, though, Brandon; it was much simpler before anything was brought to anyone's attention. A lot of people seem really tuned in to picking up little details they otherwise would've never bothered to have noticed. I'd imagine a lot of this will blow over as soon as something else gets kicked up. If nothing else, it's at least opened lines of conversation regarding our existence. Time will tell where that takes us.
We're truly at a pivotal point in history as far as trans rights are concerned.

I whole heartedly agree with that and I notice everyone is placing all this negativity on transwomen and that's all I seen on Facebook was they don't want a man in the bathroom, or I am not comfortable with a man being in the bathroom and such and no one spoke on the transmen though even my own mom asked me what I thought but she never said anything about transmen and I agree it seems like whoever passed these laws are drawing negative attention on us, its like we not normal because we have to have a law passed to use a bathroom atleast that's how that makes me feel. I am glad you agree with me on that cuz I thought I was the only one.

I don't think any trans people are making a big deal out of it. I think a lot of misinformed cisgender people are making a big deal out of it, thus provoking a response meant to educate. I don't think the response from the trans camp is really sinking in though, because the powers that be don't really want to understand.

Just keep using the bathroom you're using and don't worry about what other people are doing.

The issue is in some parts of the world you can be arrested for using the bathroom that matches your appearance. You could then be forced by law into the bathroom that doesn't match your appearance but does match your birth gender, and then be arrested all over again for looking wrong in that bathroom as well.

Up until now we had been using whatever bathroom we wanted with minimal fuss. Under these conditions though, we may find ourselves on the wrong side of the law for using ANY bathroom, and it's also illegal to go pee up a tree instead.

What needs to happen is public education. The sooner they realize trans people have a medical condition and stop equating it with perversion the better for everyone, including cis people trying to use bathrooms and being thrown out because they don't look masculine or feminine enough. These laws are ill-thought out and have backfired even on the people they're supposed to be 'protecting'.

Quote from: T.K.G.W. on September 15, 2016, 07:56:09 AM


What needs to happen is public education. The sooner they realize trans people have a medical condition and stop equating it with perversion the better for everyone, including cis people trying to use bathrooms and being thrown out because they don't look masculine or feminine enough. These laws are ill-thought out and have backfired even on the people they're supposed to be 'protecting'.

This isn't going to work with those institutions that are behind the laws.  We are working against dogma, not a lack of knowledge.

Where education will be effective is in bringing awareness to the general public and discrediting those adversarial institutions so they are recognized for their anti-intellectual bigotry and lose the ability to influence public opinion.

This is going to be a tiny bit off topic, but I personally find gendered restrooms to be dumb overall. Its just a cultural icon we've become numb to but we havent stopped to realize why we do it.

Because...men will rape women if they take their pants off in the same (despite being private?) proximity? Because there's too much sexual tension between the sexes and people are more likely to bang in bathrooms? Because people are uncomfortable being around the opposite sex in a vulnerable state (again, despite privacy?)

...and then you stop to think and realizd that rape is already illegal regardless of where it takes place (and just because you put people in a bathroom doesnt suddenly make it okay or "well they deserved it for not separating themselves", it just teaches society that rape is okay if limitations are crossed), and also that men can like men and woman can like woman so people can have sexual tension to other people regardless, and finally that most people dont often have sex with random people in public rather than do their business and be on their merry way.

Men using urinals might be strange for women but in the end their backs are turned, anyone who's had a male companion or familial counterpart knows having ones back turned is already private and decency enough...


So in the end...I find a lot of things about society pointlessly segregated and locked in, bathrooms are just another strange thing we cant seem to wrap our minds around for some reason

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on September 16, 2016, 12:05:08 AM
This is going to be a tiny bit off topic, but I personally find gendered restrooms to be dumb overall. Its just a cultural icon we've become numb to but we havent stopped to realize why we do it.

Because...men will rape women if they take their pants off in the same (despite being private?) proximity? Because there's too much sexual tension between the sexes and people are more likely to bang in bathrooms? Because people are uncomfortable being around the opposite sex in a vulnerable state (again, despite privacy?)

...and then you stop to think and realizd that rape is already illegal regardless of where it takes place (and just because you put people in a bathroom doesnt suddenly make it okay or "well they deserved it for not separating themselves", it just teaches society that rape is okay if limitations are crossed), and also that men can like men and woman can like woman so people can have sexual tension to other people regardless, and finally that most people dont often have sex with random people in public rather than do their business and be on their merry way.

Men using urinals might be strange for women but in the end their backs are turned, anyone who's had a male companion or familial counterpart knows having ones back turned is already private and decency enough...


So in the end...I find a lot of things about society pointlessly segregated and locked in, bathrooms are just another strange thing we cant seem to wrap our minds around for some reason

I use to think that at one point but now I do believe males and females should be seperate.

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on September 16, 2016, 12:05:08 AM
This is going to be a tiny bit off topic, but I personally find gendered restrooms to be dumb overall. Its just a cultural icon we've become numb to but we havent stopped to realize why we do it.

Because...men will rape women if they take their pants off in the same (despite being private?) proximity? Because there's too much sexual tension between the sexes and people are more likely to bang in bathrooms? Because people are uncomfortable being around the opposite sex in a vulnerable state (again, despite privacy?)

...and then you stop to think and realizd that rape is already illegal regardless of where it takes place (and just because you put people in a bathroom doesnt suddenly make it okay or "well they deserved it for not separating themselves", it just teaches society that rape is okay if limitations are crossed), and also that men can like men and woman can like woman so people can have sexual tension to other people regardless, and finally that most people dont often have sex with random people in public rather than do their business and be on their merry way.

Men using urinals might be strange for women but in the end their backs are turned, anyone who's had a male companion or familial counterpart knows having ones back turned is already private and decency enough...


So in the end...I find a lot of things about society pointlessly segregated and locked in, bathrooms are just another strange thing we cant seem to wrap our minds around for some reason

As a trans person, I find I don't quite understand how the rest of the world thinks and it's taken me some time to come up to speed with how the average cis person operates. I tend to see people before genders and I treat them all much the same until I know them better - they are either friend or foe, initially, and whether they're a man or a woman in that respect doesn't affect how I handle them a great deal. So I too don't think much of the bathroom thing.

But this is not how the rest of the world tends to operate. Most people tend to see the gender before the person,  and use it as a pre-requisite on how to behave toward somebody, and that includes this idea that males and females really ought to be separate when undressing for things like going in a toilet. Just the mere suggestion of a person's gender can make a person sexually curious about them, or not, depending in their orientation. I've also come to realize just how powerful the sexual response can be in some people, something I'm not too aware of in myself because it is so damn suppressed in me.

So while I could go around wishing we'd all just grow up and use public bathrooms like we share them in a household, I do get why people prefer segregation among strangers. If everyone was as numb as I am to gender being the basis for all interactions, they'd be able to share the toilet like I sometimes do with my best mate/SO. (Not that I don't appreciate privacy - if I don't know someone then I want it, but if I know them well and trust them, I could care less if they watch me pee). But I find even husband/wife couples often don't share the bathroom at the same time. I guess most people are just not really comfortable with this idea and privacy is a big thing for most, particularly when it comes to the idea of a male and female stranger sharing space. Sometimes people really are driven by animal reactions to things, and the response of the opposite sex's presence to the other can be more powerful than I realized.

I had an unusual childhood.  My father was both highly conservative and a Christian.  But he had this enlightened idea that the human body was not something to be ashamed of.  Twice, when the opportunity arose our whole family spent the day at a nudist beach in California.  Men, women, and children all walking around in their birthday suits.  I was naked too except when I went in the water and that was only because there were lots of jellyfish that day.  LOL

I do not understand at all the shame most Americans have for their naked bodies nor why they think the sight of a naked body will automatically lead to sex.  There is something deficient in our culture.

This sort of begs the question why is it that we cover up at all in public? Aside from the obvious need for warmth.

There's sometimes differences in cultures between which parts of the body are considered sexual, but those are ones that people make an especial effort to cover up. In Muslim countries, a woman's hair is seen as a sexual object and has to be covered. In some parts of Africa, breasts are not sex objects but the inner thigh is, and is covered. The fact we usually cover whatever it is our culture finds sexually attractive suggests it's for the protection of individuals from instinctive responses of others. I've had conversations with friends on the topic, about a world where people'd be hypothetically nudist all the time, and everyone I spoke to said that kind of world would be both dangerous and uncomfortable. Apparently because not everyone can control their response to a visual, and sometimes that response isn't lust, but disgust. So I guess people want coverings and privacy largely because outside of places where people are acceptably nude in public, nakedness doesn't evoke the most positive of instinctive emotions and responses.

But on the topic of toilets as a gendered space, it is interesting how men have less privacy and are expected to manage with less of it, urinals being either a row without divides or a communal trough, etc. and women's bathrooms have more and are often the ones with the baby changing facilities or the communal make-up area. There's plenty of single dads these days so the bathrooms we're still building are quite behind the times.

Actually the urinal thing is primarily past on space and money saving, men have the efficent build for urinals to work for them so most places build more urinals and only have a couple of toilets, it has less to do with privacy and more with convenience

Quote from: Brandon on September 13, 2016, 05:54:37 PM
... we have been using the bathroom of our choice and now we are just drawing more attention to the situation ...

There was a period during my transition where I did not feel comfortable in either bathroom. I didn't feel comfortable going into the men's bathroom because I look like a woman, but I didn't feel comfortable in the women's bathroom ONLY because there are/were no laws in place explicitly protecting my right to be there.

I eventually got over that, but what if I wasn't able to?
You say 'just live your life', but some people need laws to be in place in order to feel comfortable doing that.

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on September 17, 2016, 01:13:13 PM
Actually the urinal thing is primarily past on space and money saving, men have the efficent build for urinals to work for them so most places build more urinals and only have a couple of toilets, it has less to do with privacy and more with convenience

Yes, perhaps.

I went into a bathroom once in one country that had stalls in the womens but no doors on them. And the stall walls were only half-size, so if you stood upright you'd still see the top of someone's head. They could do this in all countries if they wished to be cost-effective because it would also be cheaper, like urinals. But they don't because women's privacy is generally thought of as more important.

Quote from: FTMax on September 14, 2016, 08:15:32 AM
I don't think any trans people are making a big deal out of it. I think a lot of misinformed cisgender people are making a big deal out of it, thus provoking a response meant to educate. I don't think the response from the trans camp is really sinking in though, because the powers that be don't really want to understand.

Just keep using the bathroom you're using and don't worry about what other people are doing.

I'm with FTMax on this one.

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