The reality of some situations are that many trans women marry, bear children and then find their dysphoria has left their lives untenable. So after a time (oftentimes, many years) of lying through either untruths that are told or through omissions that are untold, the TS woman comes out to her spouse that was never made privy to the fact that the man she married, was in fact, a woman. It's hard to watch these TS women force all of this down their wives and children's throats through  some strange entitlement. I certainly empathize with these TS women, they are trying to survive. But it would be insincere to say I don't also see the consternation of the wife and children caught up in this unexpected drama. Here is where the "selfishness" lies that I allude to. To expect your wife to jump on your bandwagon without reservation after years of subterfuge and secretiveness is not only deluded, but "selfish". We made our beds. Sometimes it all goes sideways and our only options are to leave the shambles of  our relationships. It's all that can be done. But to not take responsibility for the devastation we've left behind  in the wake of our revelation is on the very face of it, "selfish". The TS woman who informed her future spouse up front that she was a cross dresser with the possibility of perhaps having dysphoric feelings that may lead her to transition at some point is a different matter as well as the ones who unequivocally told their future wives they were trans. These women, who then extort their  TS spouses and uses their children as a bargaining chip in retribution are also "selfish". She has no right to be appalled, indignant, hostile or vindictive. Yet this also happens quite often.
     But we can't control the actions of others, only our own behavior. I led my wife to believe I was Mr. Manly Man as have many others. She has every right to feel betrayed, I understand this but have noticed some in our community are unable to or refuse to process this....hence, "selfish". As much as I'd love to think my journey is simply all about me and I never had a choice in how I behaved or presented is disingenuous at best and outright "selfish" at the worst. My youthful cowardice has changed another persons life and perceptions of what the last 30 years of her life meant. This is the case for many of us. If we own that, it may not change anything, but it is the first step to salvaging your relationship if any hope of that outcome exists at all. I hope the very best for all of us, but as Karen pointed out so eloquently, if we want a good outcome with a long term spouse, we must first be honest with ourselves about how we arrived in the position we've found ourselves. We can't build upon a deluded idea of how we arrived here and expect to end up with a loving relationship built on trust and respect.

Best wishes to all us married girls out there for the outcome we want and most importantly, deserve.

Quote from: jentay1367 on October 11, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
    The reality of some situations are that many trans women marry, bear children and then find their dysphoria has left their lives untenable. So after a time (oftentimes, many years) of lying through either untruths that are told or through omissions that are untold, the TS woman comes out to her spouse that was never made privy to the fact that the man she married, was in fact, a woman.

. . .

I led my wife to believe I was Mr. Manly Man as have many others . . . This is the case for many of us. If we own that, it may not change anything, but it is the first step to salvaging your relationship if any hope of that outcome exists at all. I hope the very best for all of us, but as Karen pointed out so eloquently, if we want a good outcome with a long term spouse, we must first be honest with ourselves about how we arrived in the position we've found ourselves. We can't build upon a deluded idea of how we arrived here and expect to end up with a loving relationship built on trust and respect.

Best wishes to all us married girls out there for the outcome we want and most importantly, deserve.

Like or hate Ayn Rand (I'm in the middle) I am reminded of why her last novel was called Atlas Shrugged.

Quote"If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater his effort the heavier the world bore down upon his shoulders - What would you tell him?"

I...don't know. What...could he do? What would you tell him?"

"To shrug."

Atlas has the weight of the world on his shoulder--literally--and he is breaking under the load.

Rand, who lived through Red Revolution, wrote most against Communism and collectivism which, in my view, are the real targets of her barbs.

Or from Star Trek,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYvlhHPLzCA

QuoteCaptain Spock: My father says that you have been my friend. You came back for me.

Kirk: You would have done the same for me.

Captain Spock: Why would you do this?

Kirk: Because the needs of the one... outweigh the needs of the many.

Captain Spock: [begins to remember] I have been and ever shall be your friend.

Kirk: Yes. Yes, Spock.

Captain Spock: The ship... out of danger?

Kirk: You saved the ship. You saved us all. Don't you remember?

Captain Spock: Jim... your name is Jim.

Kirk: Yes.

All our lives we have worried about the needs of the many. Sometimes it is their turn to look out for the needs of the one. The one called jentay1367

I've been selfish my whole life putting others first and me second, I told my wife I was a ->-bleeped-<- the only term I knew 28 yrs ago,she was fine with that but I kept it to night clothes ,then went underground for 10 yrs til it all blew up,and i told my wife the rest of the story. I finally admitted I was transexual and actually a woman,her response was does she have a name,told her my fem name,she said she will be called Cheryl which is a play off my middle name and then she torched the closet and said no more closet and safe zone for we are going to fade this together. For 3 yrs Cheryl went out in public,shopped,went out to restaurants,then we moved to a different house and my son had friends over so I  stopped dressing completely,til it got so bad I developed a sore and had to go back to panties,for 7 yrs I thought of others,then I had the house to myself for 3 weeks and I had freedom but kept it close to the vest,my wife knew what I was doing,then we moved again this time to the country and I had two spells which made me regroup and told my wife I've been so selfish to my needs by putting others in front of what I need,so I started wearing my favorite clothes at home my dresses and skirts came out of hiding. Me and my wife have an agreement which we both agree on no hrt or gcs,since I'm already feminine looking and have AA breasts I was fine with that. My wife didn't marry a woman,even though deep down she knows she did and still has problems with that,but 28yrs together and we love each other so much that it's hard for us to be apart. To me selfishness starts when you put others before you,its suppose to be 50/50 that's why it works for us,my wife bought my breast forms I use from Victoria Secret,she bought alot of my clothes and even made me a dress,in turn I spoil her rotten and take care of her needs,when my wife catches me putting others before me she jumps my arse if someone verbally attacks me she tears into them,but at times gets angry at me when I over do it and dress to much, I know she wants her husband at times and make adjustments to where she does have the man she married,this is easy to do for I have always dressed tomboyish,I even got married in jeans,dress shirt and Boots,havent worn a suit in 36 yrs I hate em. So in a relationship where one is transgender and the other hates it who is actually being selfish?

QuoteAll our lives we have worried about the needs of the many. Sometimes it is their turn to look out for the needs of the one. The one called jentay1367

Thanks for the food for thought Virginia, I always appreciate things that provoke me to go a little deeper. I definitely understand Galt and the idea that we need to take care of ourselves before others can be served, I just don't want to live in the Gulch. Rand's philosophy is one side of the coin. I align with the other.  I'm going to paraphrase John Donne here to suit my needs "No Woman is an Island" ....ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for she." L.O.L.
     I can certainly appreciate that we've suffered immensely to get where we are. My only hope is that we can actualize with a bare minimum of scorched earth. I want to take all I've known and everyone I've loved with me. Another form of selfishness of course, but at least there's the ring of altruism somewhere in the mix add to that, it looks to be a win...win.

All the best Hon.....J

Quote from: jentay1367 on October 11, 2016, 12:24:28 PM
     But we can't control the actions of others, only our own behavior. I led my wife to believe I was Mr. Manly Man as have many others. She has every right to feel betrayed, I understand this but have noticed some in our community are unable to or refuse to process this....hence, "selfish". As much as I'd love to think my journey is simply all about me and I never had a choice in how I behaved or presented is disingenuous at best and outright "selfish" at the worst. My youthful cowardice has changed another persons life and perceptions of what the last 30 years of her life meant. This is the case for many of us. If we own that, it may not change anything, but it is the first step to salvaging your relationship if any hope of that outcome exists at all. I hope the very best for all of us, but as Karen pointed out so eloquently, if we want a good outcome with a long term spouse, we must first be honest with ourselves about how we arrived in the position we've found ourselves. We can't build upon a deluded idea of how we arrived here and expect to end up with a loving relationship built on trust and respect.

After working for several years to shed a LOT of the Shame and Guilt about being trans and how I handled it all, about the only shame and guilt I bear is how my deeds and my actions all affected my wife. The betrayal will never go away. All I can hope for is my now feeling free to truly express myself, my hopes, my wishes, and my dream, I can hope my wife will continue to stay on this roller-coaster

QuoteAll I can hope for is my now feeling free to truly express myself, my hopes, my wishes, and my dream, I can hope my wife will continue to stay on this roller-coaster

Hi Joanne....that, in my opinion is an awesome attitude and I agree with you 100%. Now she gets the best of as well as the real you. Without recrimination and finger pointing, we have hope of salvaging our relationships and our battered souls. It's what I am shooting for and I'm dead set on doing whatever is within my ability to see that outcome. Including making concessions on my path.  Many of us, I think see it as impossible,  but ......I'm going to quote Dr. Wayne Dyer here "you'll see it when you believe it". I'm using all the creative visualization here that I can muster to not only hang on to my love, but to see my transition in the most successful and fulfilling manifestation I can muster.
Getting to the culmination of this fantastic journey without anyone there to care for or love seems cold and pointless. I can't always control events, but to the degree I can, I'm going to give it my best shot......J

Maybe you all know a lot more Trans women than i know, but i have hardly ever seen or witnessed what is being described here in this thread, namely in a simplified way:

Trans spouse knows they are trans, understands what it is, and decides to proceed with living as their non-true selves for self preservation. That seems nothing like self-preservation. That seems like self-destruction. Even if someone decided to not transition for whatever reasons and i'm sure they have plenty of valid reasons to not do that, how could that be kept from a spouse? It seems like that would open up a whole other set of challenges.

Perhaps i am relationship naive and perhaps i am such an advocate of people in this situation, my bias is not allowing me to see clearly, but most of the stories i have read are ones were there is suspicion of gender related problems but not a full understanding of their issue. What's more i think many are guilted into believing they were being deceptive when they were nothing of the kind.

Instead, i see many spouses that simply are not supporting their trans spouse who often needs to change or die. What a wonderful choice, It is akin to "I'll leave you if you treat yourself for cancer, but if you don't i'll be extra supportive at your funeral" To me that is incredible.

But again - who knows, i may be completely missing something. I totally respect those that are saying - nope i did this, i was deceptive, everyone has a reason for being human, but i just don't see it in the relationships I've known.

Quote from: Virginia Hall on October 11, 2016, 10:18:07 AM
RobynD: I can identify with the tux story. If it is socially unacceptable to also wear a gown, I can at least do the next best thing when marrying another woman--especially since I have disclosed and been honest.

I, too, was raised lesbian including being socially rewarded for dating other girls, which I was not into the same way guys were. I did mess around and over time I suspected what I felt when I was with another girl was very different from what non-GID guys felt. There seemed to be a strong element of possession--a hunger onto devouring. I felt nothing like that. Is that why trans-cis women-to-woman marriages vibe so differently and why trans-women think that telling a guy about a checkered past is like telling a girl the same thing? In my limited experience guy-girl secrets are not like girl-girl secrets. The vibe's all different. The deepest intimacies are different. The guy's needs are different.

That, however, does not make woman-to-woman marriages any less valid. On the contrary. It merely reveals them for what they are. The question is, is the cis woman lesbian and there may be shame issues she has in owning up to her lesbian attractions when she's been able to sublimate them in a seemingly "straight" marriage. The spouse comes out and the chickens come home to roost.

One think I hope that the new openness around trans will allow is for more young "lesbian" MTF transitioners to do is to be honest with the girls they date. I did many things that misfired while I was transitioning, young, but I believe it was the one thing I got right. i always told the other girl when it started to get serious.

Totally get what you are saying. I would add too, that people do not generally marry without sexual attraction (at least in most cultures) and that really the trans person is the same person that you married, just dealing with an issue.

I agree the new openness will both take the social stigma away from supporting spouses and make it easier for spouses to find a new normal as their relationship changes.

It was less than a year after we married that I even realized I was gender dysphoric.  And of course coming out rocked everything.  I wanted to hold on, but *that* was ultimately the most selfish thing I did.  She wasn't lesbian, and neither was I.  And, as it turned out, I needed a relationship where there wasn't any disclosure -- because I had to know what it was like, and the only way to really know is to experience it.

Sometimes it's simply for the best to just let go, but it really depends on the needs of everyone concerned.  If your needs align, then stay married.  But neither partner should sacrifice their happiness for the other.

Think of it this way.  Suppose Bob and Carol are married, and Carol realizes she's gay.  She doesn't really want to have sex with Bob anymore.  The best course of action is likely to divorce, so each can pursue their own happiness.  Or suppose that Bob becomes a religious convert, and Carol finds it repulsive.  I mean, there are all kinds of reasons why couples break up, why relationships end, why marriages end in divorce.  It is common.  It is nothing to be ashamed of. 

Hi All,

I just don't get this ultimate betrayal stuff.  We chose this route because society until very recently considered us mentally ill.  Society said stick it out, don't you dare tell us who you are.  If your spouse wants to blame this circumstance on someone my vote is for society.

And what's the result of this terrible betrayal?  He or she has had the torture of having a happy family life for many years.   So it's not working anymore, that doesn't dismiss all the good times.  As was said in a previous post many people experience marital problems and divorce for all sorts of different reasons and society accepts this.

But why is our situation different?  I'm guessing it's not the "lie" thing.  I'm guessing some of it is that they're embarrassed for the world to know that they married a transgender person.  I know a lot of married couples that aren't completely honest with their spouse but this is different.  I sense a bit of transphobia in the "big lie".

Maybe I see things differently then others here who've managed to keep their relationships going.   My wife has known as much as I from the first year we started living together.   We thought I could beat it so we continued with the odd flair up every once and a while, but basically she's had a good life for 30 years. 

Along the road, I've found out this can't be beat and it just gets worse.  I'm trying to see if low dose helps now but it seems to push me further down the path.

Is this a sad thing to happen to a relationship?  Definitely yes.   Does the transgender person deserve to live with guilt for the rest of their life because the relationship wasn't perfect or didn't work out?  Definitely not.

Take care,
Paige

I engaged in the Big Lie, rather than come out, for a very good reason.  Back when I was 15 years old, and was being shuttled about to different witch doctors, our common issue wasn't called gender dysphoria, and the treatment wasn't therapy, HRT, and possible GRS and supporting surgeries.

It was called transvestism, now a bit of a dirty word for very good reasons.  State of the art treatment for me would have been an involuntary committment, and initially electroconvulsive therapy (electrodes on the scalp, and a burst of electricity through the brain to 'calm' me by wiping a few million neurons out).  Then we would have gotten to the prescribed treatment:

Quote
Behavioral Therapies
Marks and Gelder (1967) used faradic (electrical) aversion techniques to apply operant conditioning methods to circumscribed sexually deviant behaviors in carefully selected patients. They suggested that this approach might be preferable to apomorphine or emetine in that it is safer and less unpleasant. Marks and Gelder described the use of an "electric shock box" and a crude penile plethysmograph to measure autonomic responses to real or imagined cross-dressing stimuli. Uncomfortable electric shocks were delivered to the leg in an intermittent reinforcement schedule when the patient either cross-dressed or fantasized about cross-dressing topics. All five patients studied (two fetishists and three ->-bleeped-<-s), described as having "well-integrated personalities," demonstrated complete extinguishing of penile erection previously associated with cross-dressing themes after about 2 weeks of inpatient treatments. Marks and Gelder noted that fantasies and preoccupations about women's clothing items disappeared as treatment progressed, whereas fantasies about heterosexual intercourse increased. Both the patients and their spouses reported increased sexual activity with their spouses following treatment. Marks and Gelder concluded that "sexually deviant desires and practices diminished or disappeared" in all patients, but cautioned that such treatment should be used only in highly motivated patients "where no other effective treatment is available" (Marks and Gelder 1967, p. 11).

That would have fixed me right up, wouldn't it?    Please bear in mind that for some of us older patients, hiding and The Big Lie were not attempts to deceive a spouse or parent.  We were trying to avoid social abuse, beatings sanctioned by our religious leaders and parents, and worse, incarceration and prolonged torture until we 'got better' (at hiding our true nature from the witch doctors!) and were pronounced 'cured'.

Now, maybe some of you younger folks think I was a Bad Person for hiding what I was.  To be blunt, I was hiding for my survival.  Involuntary commitment was a very real thing back then.  Spousal involuntary commitment was still on the books and available in some jurisdictions as recently as 30 years ago.   Would you want to come out, knowing that your loving family would support you and get you the care you needed at the local mental institution?

When living in a sick, transphobic society, The Big Lie is not a horrible act of deception, but a survival tactic.

Some of would also have been immediately terminated from our jobs without recourse.

As a student, many years ago, I worked my summer vacations, as a hospital ward orderly (aka cleaner and dogs-body).

The wards I was assigned to were the secure units, for psychiatric care and the elderly. ECT was still in active use for all sorts of conditions (and probably still is). At least they had the half sense to sedate their patients, but cleaning that place was arguably the worst job I have ever done.

But enough of the tangent.

Culturally, there are many factors that mean we often are reluctant to disclose, until we are certain that we cannot go on without treatment. As we all carry different cultural contexts, one persons rational decision may differ wildly to our own.

Sno.

The term "big lie" is being tossed around, but I do not see that term being used by those of us who are suggesting that the so-called "liars" let themselves off the hook. I want to shout out. "Throw down your spoons. Stop digging. The cell doors are unlocked. Walk out into the sunlight." We live in jails of our own words, trapped in the darkness.

Please. Stop beating yourselves. This is not your fault.

I for one know exactly why I had to lie about my true nature in the past, and the damage that caused.

I don't do that any more.

The only problems I have with being my true self are temporary, transient things that shortly won't be affecting my life any more.  They stem from our sick and transphobic culture, in the form of my spouses insecurity and transphobia.  She does understand that what I'm doing is necessary for my well-being, although it upsets her quite a bit. 

The parts of my life in which others cannot accept my true self are being left behind.  In some ways, I'm shedding my old male persona and its social entwinements like a snake shedding its skin.  Soon there will just be a bright and shiny me moving forward, and sadly, some inflexible folks clutching a dried, dissicated old snakeskin.

I understand this trans person.  That is what matters most to me.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 12, 2016, 08:16:24 AM
It was less than a year after we married that I even realized I was gender dysphoric.  And of course coming out rocked everything.  I wanted to hold on, but *that* was ultimately the most selfish thing I did.  She wasn't lesbian, and neither was I.  And, as it turned out, I needed a relationship where there wasn't any disclosure -- because I had to know what it was like, and the only way to really know is to experience it.

Hmm, sounds familiar. I'm in a breakup now with my GF, with whom I've been together for the last 4,5 years. I've been on the transition train for the last two years and in the beginning we both went for it. But as time progressed we both realized we needed to be with men, but it was a bitter pill to swallow. The holding on also felt like stretching something that wasn't meant to be anymore, so here I am.... (probably) moving out in two weeks.

The thing is, being untruthful always messes things up. If you want ANY chance of holding on to your relationship, better be truthful. And if being truthful leads to a breakup, as is the case for me, then so be it. In the end it's about finding yourself and your happiness, for both you and your significant other.

Quote from: Gendermutt on May 12, 2016, 11:37:22 PM
There are always so many threads that deal with how to get our partners and family to accept us now that we have revealed ourselves. But it is the not revealing before commitment is what is really the tough part for them as well as for ourselves. Rather than a bunch of how to threads of breaking the news, and dealing with the blow back, we should be working harder at getting people to do so before the commitments we make.
.

This is a nice theory... However, I think what you will find in a lot of cases is that the initial commitment to the relationship is made *prior* to reaching a point of personal understanding and acceptance. A person cannot reveal who they really are to their potential partner if they have not come to grips with who they really are first.

If the transgendered person has "figured out" that they are transgendered and are not honest about that aspect of themselves when entering into a deep committed relationship, then that is not being honest.  In that scenario they are not starting a serious committed relationship on the right foot.

As society becomes more accepting of transgendered people you will probably see more of us come to grips with what we are going through at an earlier point in our lives.  But for those of us that spent a long time being confused by these strange thoughts and feelings, and coped by simply locking them up inside and pretending they were not real, or that we could just will them away..  not so easy... not so simple.  You end up in love with someone and in a serious committed relationship based on who you understand and believe yourself to be - there is no "bad faith" in that.

When and how you reveal your whole identity...  Not so cut and dry.  Go slow?  Go fast and just "rip off the Band-Aid"?  It will depend on the personalities of the people involved.  Taking the time to sort out ones feelings and come to grips with what it all means and how best to deal with it prior to unloading on a significant other - is that inherently dishonest?  I think there is a lot of grey on this topic.

My view is that some slack needs to be cut. Some people knew rather clearly as toddlers that they were in the wrong gender role. Other knew later. The age does not make anyone superior or inferior. Those of us who were telling others about ourselves in our early teens (like revealing to the girlfriends we were "supposed" to date) and avoiding having kids had to deal with one set of problems. Those who finally named it later in life had a different set of problems.

We have trade-offs to make. If it were up to me I would have had SRS at 16 or 18. I was pretty sure of it. Only where do you come up with $10,000 (like a $100,000 in today's money) when you're still in high school? So you wait until you are in your 20s and have salted some money away.

Is the 16 to 18 year old truer, or is the 20-something truer? Or is the 50-something truer? Or the 80-something. We transition when we can swing it. Yes? No? Maybe?

Virginia, (I like that, it was my mother's name),
Personally I think that the older of us, like myself, tend to be lesbians more often than you younger ones. I grew up in the sixties and, until very recently, everybody (who knew about us at all), "knew" that you could only transition into a straight man or woman. So how could I have been trans? Sure I had dreams and daydreams, but did that mean anything? Of course not! "You're a straight man with an unusual fantasy life", never mind that I was absolutely pathetic at being a man. My son was grown and my body's testosterone production was subsiding before I had an inkling. Let me tell you, I am an absolute pro at repression! Those thoughts and dreams were shoved deep in a closet. Almost three years ago, after 32 and a half years of marriage it all came to a head and I began to remember and integrate what I had hidden. Just over two years ago I began medical transition because I knew that I couldn't survive otherwise. My life is a bit of a shambles and I'm slowly rebuilding. My marriage is winding down although we remain the best of friends. I love her with all my heart. She loves me but can't be with a lesbian. So who did I really lie to? Being transgender is not a mental illness, but repression is.

My life is a tragedy, but no one is really at fault. You know what? Look at history, look at literature, in the best of tragedy, no one really is.

I prefer comedy, or romance.

Quote from: Dee Marshall on October 13, 2016, 12:36:52 PM

. . . So how could I have been trans? Sure I had dreams and daydreams, but did that mean anything? Of course not! "You're a straight man with an unusual fantasy life",  . . .

My life is a bit of a shambles and I'm slowly rebuilding. My marriage is winding down although we remain the best of friends. I love her with all my heart. She loves me but can't be with a lesbian. So who did I really lie to? Being transgender is not a mental illness, but repression is.

My life is a tragedy, but no one is really at fault. You know what? Look at history, look at literature, in the best of tragedy, no one really is.

I prefer comedy, or romance.

My therapist pointed out one very obvious fact about nearly all MTF, "you were raised lesbian." My therapist went onto make parallels with lesbian lives. "Many would love to have been raised like you were," meaning me. A mate might make the claim, "I am not lesbian," but in fact 32-1/2 years of marriage prove otherwise. Being a lesbian is much more than having sex with women. Like straight marriages, long-term gay marriages are held together by more than sex. Some (many?) survive without the kind of strong physical relations typical in the early days of the relationship.

Lesbian physical relationships are not all like the ones shown on Transparent with pieces of phallic plastic and swami belts. Sure, that takes place, but in a parallel example, few would suggest that some hot Hollywood het movie encapsulates straight relationships. Fifty Shades of Gray is not the  bellwether of heterosexuality. It's made to tittle. No wonder a wife might say after seeing Transparent, or any of the countless films with lesbian sexuality, "if that's what lesbians are, count me out!" Well, that's not what all of lesbians are into. "Based on this new information shall I now mark you down as a 'possible' on the RSVP?" Lesbians are into each other. That's the only "rule." That's the only "definition."



Listen to the words and see if it's all that different.

Virginia

PS You might find this song quaint and odd in 2016, but in second wave feminism such songs empowered many of us who were in the wimmin's movement and were living with other women. We faced the fact some transitioners had been raised lesbian. These performances are less songs, than than they are declarations of life set to some musical instruments and singing.

I have to admit getting into the lesbian presentation took a bit of doing, but that acquired taste is grist for a different post.