So I have been on hrt for about 1.5 years and had laser and regular electrolysis done during that time.  I still have a few sparse hairs on my upper lip that I am getting rid of with my electrologist but the thing is, because I had black facial hair, my upper lip still has a faint mustache shadow which really bothers me. 

I spoke to my electrologist who said that it could be some hairs that is still under the skin but it could also be discoloration.  I'm pretty sure it isn't melasma so is it possible that it's still hair under the skin that hasn't sprouted or is trapped?  I exfoliate about 3-4 times a week and I don't notice much of a difference.  Also, my hormone levels are good so I know it isn't that. 

Does the mustache color of the upper lip eventually go away with hair removal or is it something that needs to be treated with facials or laser?

It's been bothering me because even though I usually cover it up with make up, I would like to not have to wear make up just to cover it up.
 

Just use laser, and a good one. The better the laser, the better it will be at getting those hairs under the skin. I've lasered everything away, and if a mustache shadow resurfaces, it's gone after the next treatment. Hurts like hell though

Do a combination. Laser attacks majority but not all, electrolysis (when done correctly) kills hair one strand at a time.

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Quote from: jfong on October 13, 2016, 07:42:41 AM
Do a combination. Laser attacks majority but not all, electrolysis (when done correctly) kills hair one strand at a time.

That's not they told me it works... Basically I've got everything gone (including the mustache shadow) except for the last 20 hairs on my upper lip or so. No electrolysis here... But, I do get my lasering done by a professional, between $80 and $150 per session. The laser-device costed 100K initially though, so that's OK I guess

Not the ELUX 810 by any chance?

Quote from: ElizabethK on October 13, 2016, 07:45:59 AM
Not the ELUX 810 by any chance?

No, a LightSheer by Lumensis. Not the kind of device you'd buy when you're not a registered professional :p

I removed most of hairs around my lips a few years ago by Tria, but thereafter I still could see some fine hairs regrow. I plucked them up by tweezers.

Then, a few weeks ago, I purchased my second Tria (4X) to remove further those fine hairs, together with the hairs in my bikini area.

When I see any hair regrown, I shave it and strike with Tria.

Anyway I do not see any grey area in my face.



barbie~~

Quote from: elineq on October 13, 2016, 07:45:13 AM
That's not they told me it works... Basically I've got everything gone (including the mustache shadow) except for the last 20 hairs on my upper lip or so. No electrolysis here... But, I do get my lasering done by a professional, between $80 and $150 per session. The laser-device costed 100K initially though, so that's OK I guess [emoji14]

In perfect settings, yes it might work. But if you think about it, some of us have grey hair, some black and some blonde etc also we all have different skin colour. Laser attacks the darkest hair/pigment and since the attack area is bigger, you can't set it too high because it can risk burning your skin if you are not fair skinned. When it is not set high all of the less darker hair strands won't  get the full effect, that's  where electrolysis comes in because it targets a single strand of hair instead of a whole  area of a skin.

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Quote from: barbie on October 13, 2016, 07:48:53 AM
I removed most of hairs around my lips a few years ago by Tria, but thereafter I still could see some fine hairs regrow. I plucked them up by tweezers.

Then, a few weeks ago, I purchased my second Tria (4X) to remove further those fine hairs, together with the hairs in my bikini area.

When I see any hair regrown, I shave it and strike with Tria.

Anyway I do not see any grey area in my face.



barbie~~

예뻐요

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Sorry, I guess my question wasn't exactly clear. 

I've had a year of laser treatments from a dermatologist until they no longer helped.  After that, I started electrolysis and have been getting electro for about half a year.

My question is, does the upper mustache shadow eventually go away on it's own after getting most to all of the hair out or is it a possible discoloration that I would need treatment for.

Thank you!

It will depends on what causing the discoloration. If it is hair roots the you still need to do the treatment, if it is your skin pigment then the dermatologist might be able to help you better.

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The only thing I found that works are high powered laser treatments, its incredibly painful. Basically literally right after your session you should see an immediate difference. So if you try this route again, ask the tech while in session if any shadow was removed if not keep going higher in power. Sometimes changing the type of laser and its strength can make a big difference with this issue. I've been dealing with this problem for years and basically not touching that area at all (shaving) after treatments helps loads with keeping the shadow at a min. I also have the darkest hair possible (ideal laser candidate). This shadow issue can be genetic too, many women in my family have some form of shadow (discoloration) on their upper lip despite never being exposed to T or shaving like I have been.

Food for thought, think of it like this, laser can remove tattoos but thats only at incredibly high levels. Its the same concept with removing that deep shadow, the usual laser levels often used even for facial hair wont be good enough.

There are some diy methods that helps with discoloration apart from exfoilating. I forgot what those are though. I'd have to look them up.

If it's just a coloration, a dermatologist can probably get rid of it with the use of laser. If it's hair, then you will get rid of it when your finished with hair removal.

Quote from: winterkat on October 13, 2016, 07:00:12 AM
I spoke to my electrologist who said that it could be some hairs that is still under the skin but it could also be discoloration.  I'm pretty sure it isn't melasma so is it possible that it's still hair under the skin that hasn't sprouted or is trapped?

I was in a similar situation as you.  I have fair skin and black hair.  After about 8 laser hair removal treatments, I still had a gray shadow in my upper lip.  But there wasn't any noticeable hair growth (even after several days of not shaving, I didn't notice any hair growing back).  I just kept waiting though, and I did eventually have some hairs grow back.  I just kept doing more and more laser treatments, and now after 11 sessions, I don't have any more gray shadow.  I can finally go out without any makeup, which is incredibly liberating.

I should also add that after about 6 laser hair removal treatments, I had a laser skin resurfacing treatment for my entire face (with a different doctor).  The doctor used an erbium glass laser on me.  It smoothed out my overall facial skin, which was great, and I wonder if it also killed off the top layer of my upper lip area - which may have made it easier for subsequent laser hair removal sessions to get at the slower growth underneath.

I'd advise speaking to your dermatologist (better yet, get several opinions) and see what type of laser treatments (whether it's hair removal or skin resurfacing) that they recommend to help you with your problem.

Quote from: EmilyMK03 on October 13, 2016, 01:27:35 PM
I was in a similar situation as you.  I have fair skin and black hair.  After about 8 laser hair removal treatments, I still had a gray shadow in my upper lip.  But there wasn't any noticeable hair growth (even after several days of not shaving, I didn't notice any hair growing back).  I just kept waiting though, and I did eventually have some hairs grow back.  I just kept doing more and more laser treatments, and now after 11 sessions, I don't have any more gray shadow.  I can finally go out without any makeup, which is incredibly liberating.

I've been doing laser 2,5 years now, and I lost count of the amount of sessions I've had. Here's the thing: the laserlight is transmitted through the melanin (brow pigment) within the hairs to the follicle, which it then burns. Hair grows in cycles, each lasting between 6 and 8 weeks. In each cycle, about 20% of the follicles are active. When you apply laser, as you've already mentioned, you can't get all of the hair in one go, because the follicles grow at several depths. The first passover, you'll be able to 'get' two third to 3/4 of the total depth. Usually not more, because the amount of active follicles also delimits the amount of energy your skin can take. With a full beard, you'll have lots of thick black hairs = lots of melanin. That means you can only apply so much energy without burning the skin.

This energy is measured in Joules/cm² and a typical untreated male beard can take 13-15 J/cm² on the first couple of treatments without burning the skin. You need 30-33 J/cm² to get to the deeper layers, though. One passover therefore requires about five treatmens, which lasts 5 x 8 weeks = 10 months. So, within 5 treatments between 2/3 and 3/4 of the follicles will be gone. You will then still need another pass though, because 1/4 to 1/3 of the follicles (those lying deeper within the skin) won't have been targeted by the laser in the first passover. And since your hair still grows in cyles, this means at least another 5 cycles, equalling at least 10 in total.

These deeper lying hair follicles are usually the reason people develop a 'shadow'. It's simply the leftover of what was there originally, and it means more work is still to be done.

There is one more complication though, and that's the reaction of your skin itself to the laser. As with any light bombarding it (such as the sun in summer), the body's natural reaction is to create pigment, aka a sun tan. In some cases, the body responds to the laser treatment as if it was the sun shining down on it on a summer day and it actually creates isolated spots of melanin in the skin. These usually go away after a while though, the 8 weeks wait between sessions is normally enough.

So, there you have it. Laser 101

Oh, this information is a mix of what my dermatologist has told me and my own experience over the last 2,5 years of doing this

Quote from: elineq on October 14, 2016, 03:17:43 AM
I've been doing laser 2,5 years now, and I lost count of the amount of sessions I've had. Here's the thing: the laserlight is transmitted through the melanin (brow pigment) within the hairs to the follicle, which it then burns. Hair grows in cycles, each lasting between 6 and 8 weeks. In each cycle, about 20% of the follicles are active. When you apply laser, as you've already mentioned, you can't get all of the hair in one go, because the follicles grow at several depths. The first passover, you'll be able to 'get' two third to 3/4 of the total depth. Usually not more, because the amount of active follicles also delimits the amount of energy your skin can take. With a full beard, you'll have lots of thick black hairs = lots of melanin. That means you can only apply so much energy without burning the skin.

This energy is measured in joules, a typical beard can take 14-15 Joules on the first couple of treatments. You need 30-33 Joules to get to the deeper layers, though. One passover therefore requires about five treatmens, which lasts 5 x 8 weeks = 10 months. So, within 5 treatments between 2/3 and 3/4 of the follicles will be gone. You will then still need another pass though, because 1/4 to 1/3 of the follicles (those lying deeper within the skin) won't have been targeted by the laser in the first passover. And since your hair still grows in cyles, this means at least another 5 cycles, equalling at least 10 in total.

These deeper lying hair follicles are usually the reason people develop a 'shadow'. It's simply the leftover of what was there originally, and it means more work is still to be done.

There is one more complication though, and that's the reaction of your skin itself to the laser. As with any light bombarding it (such as the sun in summer), the body's natural reaction is to create pigment, aka a sun tan. In some cases, the body responds to the laser treatment as if it was the sun shining down on it on a summer day and it actually creates isolated spots of melanin in the skin. These usually go away after a while though, the 8 weeks wait between sessions is normally enough.

So, there you have it. Laser 101

Oh, this information is a mix of what my dermatologist has told me and my own experience over the last 2,5 years of doing this

I have to say this mirrors my own experience with Laser. Unfortunately some people think 10 sessions will be enough and they do ten and maybe end up permanently killing maybe 20% overall. Electrolysis is the same that not every time you get zapped will it kill the follicle. In theory it should in practice it doesn't. What I have noticed is that when you have a good treatment you can get shedding after just a few days. At $50 per treatment and I can see hairs regularly falling out after week to 10 days...very happy with that. Each treatment and my face gets a little lighter as the dark older hairs get zapped. Another side benefit is that it will helped even out my skin tone and help smooth some scarring. It has taken the redness out of my cheeks and overall my skin looks healthier.

Hugs
Liz 

Quote from: ElizabethK on October 14, 2016, 03:29:48 AM
I have to say this mirrors my own experience with Laser. Unfortunately some people think 10 sessions will be enough and they do ten and maybe end up permanently killing maybe 20% overall. Electrolysis is the same that not every time you get zapped will it kill the follicle. In theory it should in practice it doesn't.

Yup... The only way to go about it is to keep on going. I pay €50 per treatment for my upper lip and chin (which is where there's still some growth now, the rest is gone). But the full beard cost me €130 per treatment, so you can get an estimate of the amount of money I've pumped into getting rid of my beard over the last years.

Still, right now about 95% is gone and that which is there is barely visible. I'm not satisfied, though, I want it all gone

Keep on riding the laser train, there's no gain without pain

Quote from: elineq on October 14, 2016, 03:33:48 AM
Keep on riding the laser train, there's no gain without pain

My Laser Tech said to me if it isn't hurting then we are not zapping hairs... no pain no gain...here's another one..."I love the smell of burnt hair in the morning" isn't that a quote from "apocalypse now" sorry all this laser zapping makes the brain fuzzy



Liz

Thank you ladies for the detailed explanations, you really helped answer my questions!

Oh, and one more question.  How would you know whether it's discoloration or if it's hair follicles that are causing the shadow.

Thanks!

Quote from: winterkat on October 14, 2016, 11:40:41 AM
How would you know whether it's discoloration or if it's hair follicles that are causing the shadow.

Ask your dermatologist... No other way to say for sure. But, IMHO follicles produce a dark/greyish hue, whereas pigment causes a brownish hue. But that's just me.