Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 28, 2016, 08:48:20 AMPersonally, and this is just my view, use of the term Alien is as inappropriate as it is unrealistic.

I've never believed this idea that the 'me' that was Richard was not me, or in some way didn't exist. That way lies delusion.

And if that's your truth, more power to you.  I'm not saying you should change your truth.  If that's your truth, then of course you should embrace it.

What I'm saying is that not everyone who comes down this road has the same truth.  For me, the constructed persona of the past was a lie, and the temporary persona of transition was, well, temporary, and discarded once I no longer needed it.  Both were tools necessary for survival, nothing more.

As for metaphors, well, of course they're unrealistic -- they're fictions.  But they can certainly help to put a different perspective on things.  That's the thing about fiction in general -- sometimes a fictional story (whether it's pretending to be "realistic" or engages in high fantasy) can get closer to the truth than a purported "history" which refuses to acknowledge its own fictionality.  Yes, history is also fiction -- not only because it's impossible to capture all the events that have happened with perfect accuracy, but more importantly because the past no longer exists.  And not to mention the fact that it can never partake of one's "spiritual" understanding.

In the end, what's really inappropriate is imposing our own truths on other people, simply because we've come down the same road.  But of course, there will be many people who share a similar truth, and can walk together.  I'm hoping to find people who can see a fork in the road, and let them know that others have come down this (now) less-trodden path, as someone helped me to realize so many years ago. 

Some paths are a one-way-street down which you can never go back, which would be melancholic if it was never your path in the first place, and you only took that route because you missed the fork in the road.

QuoteCis women use makeup and, given half the chance, many would have facelifts and botox etc. Beautification is not something unique to MtF's and, again, I think it's unrealistic to think otherwise. There's nothing 'fake' about this. It actually plays into the very thing you are seeking to avoid.

Again, I was speaking personally, not generally let alone universally.  I'm a hippie chick -- of course I eschew makeup (and I don't eat meat, either).  My mom, on the other hand, doesn't feel like she's truly herself until she's put on her face.  I completely respect her feelings for herself on the matter, and I certainly don't think she is fake for her makeup rituals.  On the contrary.

What I really like about not wearing makeup (aside from the time and money I save, and my concerns about animal testing and environmental impact) is waking up in the morning, rolling out of bed with my groggy lover, padding over to the bathroom, and seeing my true face in the mirror right from the very start.  Whether I'm sick, or hung over, or sore and aching from the previous night's activities, what have you.  There's no haunting.  The Alien has been kicked out of the airlock.  I feel so free.

Quote from: oneoftwo on October 28, 2016, 09:55:12 AM
You have been pretty harsh in your characterization of western surgeons who do bone work.  Essentially accusing Dr. O of running a "racket" or something similar for doing forehead remodeling of the bone structure.

Consider this: Most good facial surgeons, that actually know how to also do both implants and bone work  ---   will tell you that implants are a distant poor 2nd choice to doing bone work.  Lots of negatives associated with implants.  There is a significant rate of short and long term infections associated with implants.   Often you have to end up taking antibiotics before (and after) every trip to see the dentist,  to protect against blood born infection locating in /around the implant(s).   Often the ONLY treatment for an implant infection is to remove the implant.   

Then what ?  Do that again ?    Isn't that the definition of insanity?   What are you going to tell your co-workers when you show up for work - - 10 days after the implant removal?

Aesthetically,  part of the reason for doing the type III foreheads is because the eyes are set so deeply in most western men - - compared to females - -  that adding forehead implants to mask the brow ridge does nothing to change the gender marker associated with the deep set eyes.  In many instances, a camafloge implant above the brow may make that marker more significant.

Back when Andrea James was getting the word out on facial surgery -- the radical bone work necessary for so many European women, at least -- she got a lot of flack.  Some objected to the whole notion of trying to look female, as opposed to visibly transgendered, either out of a sense of "you're not really a woman" or from their own insecurities -- because it's expensive and hence out of reach for so many.  Or because different choices were made, and those choices needed to be justified.  And of course, some never needed it in the first place -- at least, not to be gendered correctly. 

The thing about this kind of facial surgery is that it isn't additive -- it is taking material away.  Which is literally a "letting go," certainly a scary approach for some people who are so used to "holding on."  And hey, if you want to hold on, I won't stop you.  If you want to add on, if that's what you need, so be it.  For me at least, the path has always been about letting go, along with a lot of refinement and rebuilding.  For me, it's been about death and rebirth, which is why I like spiritual metaphors so much (though I'm actually a materialist, how ironic). 

But I continue to stand in my materialism.  Changing my body has changed my interiority, and the most radical changes have had the most profound effects on my spiritual well-being, though it's always been my spirit in the driver's seat.  The body and the spirit are not separate, I believe.  But that's just me.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 28, 2016, 07:53:06 AM
Just because we can deal with, given no alternatives, doesn't me we should deal with it, given alternatives.

If there was a pill that cost $100,000 that would change nothing, except for rewriting my DNA, I'd take it.  If there were surgeries that would effectively make me proportionately smaller, I'd get them.  Something to reduce the breadth of my shoulders?  Absolutely.

Yes - I understand. And this is why those surgeries are in my head now. voice surgery was a no-go when I transitioned. The option simply was not viable, so I never really thought of it and it worked ok. Yet now I wanted this because it was possible now. FFS is similar - it was a rumour back then and now it exists and is widespread, so it has become an option. All that keeps me from doing it, and the same is true for potential future surgeries to shape body proportions or shoulders, is what the risks involved are. I am not a good risk-taker. I took risks when I had GRS and BA and both time I was hit in the face for it, so I have become very careful with surgeries... I think actually I would not change my DNA - unless it would mean that my body would also change. The DNA does nothing in respect to my gender now.

QuoteThe Alien in your particular context is the "transwoman," while you are Ripley, simply a woman.

Ok, yes I get that now. Indeed - Melanie Phillips described it as "deleting the parts of the personality that came to be in transition or before and are no longer needed and reboot those systems from the built in ROM memory" - more of a computer analogy, but similar in the content.

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 28, 2016, 08:48:20 AM
Cis women use makeup and, given half the chance, many would have facelifts and botox etc.

Particular women yes. Asian and US women, maybe. European women are very critical about plastic surgery...and many even are not using a lot of makeup. But of course makeup is used a lot.

QuoteAnjaq, kathoeys is a very broad term as you know, encompassing both pre-op transsexuals and post-op transwomen and women. I've talked to many many of them down the years and it's a massive umbrella term. By no means all, by the way, are involved in the sex industry either. I've quizzed people on this and had figures from 10-25%. Certainly a great many kathoeys have nothing to do with that industry. I think we need to be careful not to impose western categorisations like transsexualism on a long-established Asian tradition. That way lies what Edward Said called 'orientalism.'

This is not what I wanted to imply. I said kathoey is maybe closest to what the term "trans" means now - a group of rather different people who have some sorts of gender and sex issue. And of course that does not really match either. Just saying that for many of them , just as in the west, hormones, genital surgeries and such is not a desire. And the 10-25% sex workers is still much higher percentage than in Europe. Just wanted to say that there are different situations here and there leading to different desires and paths in life regarding the gender expressions

Quote from: oneoftwo on October 28, 2016, 09:55:12 AM
Aesthetically,  part of the reason for doing the type III foreheads is because the eyes are set so deeply in most western men - - compared to females - -  that adding forehead implants to mask the brow ridge does nothing to change the gender marker associated with the deep set eyes.  In many instances, a camafloge implant above the brow may make that marker more significant.

Yes - they do have this, I believe "type II forehead" where they use fillers instead of shaving much of the bone. But it tends to look odd. In my case this would be useless since my problem is not at all a brow ridge - I have none, basically - it is the deep set eyes that give me a bit of an angry/mean/dark look. Maybe a brow lift or a eyelid surgery could change that as well but that would be temporary

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 28, 2016, 10:18:14 AM
Again, I was speaking personally, not generally let alone universally.  I'm a hippie chick -- of course I eschew makeup (and I don't eat meat, either).  My mom, on the other hand, doesn't feel like she's truly herself until she's put on her face. 

I guess I am in the middle - on many days I do not use makeup at all - I also like to be camping or diving or hiking and thats not a place for makeup. But when I am at work or maybe going out in the evening, I do use some - but nothing like the full makeup some women do. I am lazy - I use mascara and eyeliner and kayal and maybe sometimes a lipstick. Thats it then. And I do it to be more pretty not to be seen more female or to "pass" better... same with clothes like skirts or boots with heels - nice if I want to feel pretty, going into the closet when I am just doing something else.

QuoteWhat I really like about not wearing makeup (aside from the time and money I save, and my concerns about animal testing and environmental impact) is waking up in the morning, rolling out of bed with my groggy lover, padding over to the bathroom, and seeing my true face in the mirror right from the very start.  Whether I'm sick, or hung over, or sore and aching from the previous night's activities, what have you.  There's no haunting.  The Alien has been kicked out of the airlock.  I feel so free.

Yes - I can imagine that if you felt compelled to use this before FFS, it must be liberating. It was similar for me when I had laser and hormones for a while and could skip the makeup to cover up facial hair and all that. Freedom at last . Not sure what a FFS now would do - probably the opposite - it would probably make me feel pretty and then I may be tempted to be even prettier at some times

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 28, 2016, 10:34:39 AM
Back when Andrea James was getting the word out on facial surgery -- the radical bone work necessary for so many European women, at least -- she got a lot of flack.  Some objected to the whole notion of trying to look female, as opposed to visibly transgendered, either out of a sense of "you're not really a woman" or from their own insecurities -- because it's expensive and hence out of reach for so many.  Or because different choices were made, and those choices needed to be justified.  And of course, some never needed it in the first place -- at least, not to be gendered correctly. 

Oh, this is still the same , at least here in Europe. I tried to talk about FFS and voice surgery on some occasions and was basically almost called names or I was just ignored. It gets nasty usually when I explain that I think FFS and VFS should be part of the trans health plans - here GRS and hormones and therapy are NHS covered and FFS is not (VFS only sometimes). Trans people really get angry at me for saying this.

QuoteThe thing about this kind of facial surgery is that it isn't additive -- it is taking material away.  Which is literally a "letting go," certainly a scary approach for some people who are so used to "holding on."  And hey, if you want to hold on, I won't stop you.  If you want to add on, if that's what you need, so be it.  For me at least, the path has always been about letting go, along with a lot of refinement and rebuilding.

Totally! This is all about letting go. Again and again I meet this feeling that I move on by letting go. And that often if I manage to let go, something new rushes in that feels great. Like transitioning - letting go of the male persona that was not me just liberated me myself and I did not have to learn how to be womanly and gestures and behaviours and wording and how to walk and body language and all that - It rushed in from who knows were I have been hiding. I was always puzzled at people tring to learn all of this consciously... I think truely letting go just makes it happen. But I think many cannot let go - especially if they got married with kids...

Fair enough Sophia and Anjaq. Good responses! Peace and love to you both xx

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 28, 2016, 01:55:52 AM
They do a lot with lifts: brows, full facial. But they also do work like soft implants into the upper forehead. Warlockmaker explained it to me: in effect it produces the same or similar feminine female contouring as the heaving grinding beloved by some western surgeons without any of that invasive work. They do similar implant work on cheeks.

That could also be because of the low income in Thailand. Bone work is more expensive and its hard enough for many western women to afford it, how much worse it must be for Thai's.

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 28, 2016, 01:55:52 AM
By the way, re the Thai kathoeys and hormones I've had many conversations with them and have been surprised at how many say they no longer take hormones, or only occasionally.

Seems like that would be dangerous, with the risk of osteoporosis. Why do they do that?

Quote from: AnonyMs on October 28, 2016, 02:35:55 PM
That could also be because of the low income in Thailand. Bone work is more expensive and its hard enough for many western women to afford it, how much worse it must be for Thai's.

There's probably a lot of truth in that

Quote from: AnonyMs on October 28, 2016, 02:35:55 PM

Seems like that would be dangerous, with the risk of osteoporosis. Why do they do that?

I fear the rather uncomfortable truth is that they think hormones affect libido and in the case of pre-op kathoeys, erectile function.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 28, 2016, 10:18:14 AM

What I really like about not wearing makeup [...] is waking up in the morning, rolling out of bed with my groggy lover, padding over to the bathroom, and seeing my true face in the mirror

I know. It's just that if we're being women you won't find many cis women in the world that feel similarly. I don't mean to have more than a gentle discussion on this, and certainly don't want to argue with you over a very valid POV and stance esp re animal testing, but all of my over-40 cis female friends wear makeup and are very grateful for it. I'm like them x

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 30, 2016, 01:53:05 AM
I fear the rather uncomfortable truth is that they think hormones affect libido and in the case of pre-op kathoeys, erectile function.

See, this is whre it comes back to the thing about the definition of the groups. If we want to compare transsexual women with some group in Thailand , we cannot take the Kathoey group because they include a lot of other trans subgroups. I doubt many transsexual women would be worried about erectile dysfunction, but I know among the broader trans umbrella there are groups who are like this, transgender people who want to be accepted and maybe also look like women but have a sexuality that involves them having erections. That is a bit of a weird spot to be in because it makes it hard to balance out the feminization from hormones and the sexual functions.

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 30, 2016, 01:57:22 AM
I know. It's just that if we're being women you won't find many cis women in the world that feel similarly. I don't mean to have more than a gentle discussion on this, and certainly don't want to argue with you over a very valid POV and stance esp re animal testing, but all of my over-40 cis female friends wear makeup and are very grateful for it. I'm like them x

I think you are projecting your experiences in your country or even state or city globally. First of all most of the women in this world will have limited access to makeup and if they do, they may use it more to be prettier if they want to be - maybe for some occasion, maybe also for daily life, but I doubt the majority of women worldwide uses makeup daily. Especially not the full makeup with powders and liquid creams and all that. I can now just speak of my country as I do not know what chinese working women or indian peasants actually do, but here in Germany, using full makeup is not that common. Some women do this, many do not. Many women do not use makeup at all or just light makeup like mascara and lipstick. Of course Germany is also not the norm. Women here also tend to wear unisex clothing and "Normcore" stuff. In the 70ies and 80ies there were quite a few women who did not shave at all, now this is different but still a lot of women do not shave body hair regularly or in all areas that americans do.
This is all a beauty standard and a cultural thing. I work at university and I would say that I see only a small percentage of women (students and staff) there who wear more than a very basic makeup.

On the other hand, most of the women over 50 I see have short haircuts - no longer than to the chin, often shorter than that, most of them also wear pants daily and functional clothes - personally I do not want to go there and be like those other women when I am 50

I've lived most of my life in so-called third world countries, amongst the poorest of the poor including six years continuous in Africa, three and half of which was in a village where we had no electricity, running water and no internet or indeed any external connections except twiddling a shortwave radio knob. At one point I didn't even leave the village for a whole year. I've travelled all over the globe as an anthropologist.

Every woman, everywhere on the planet, with the sole exception of a certain type of western feminist tries to make themselves more beautiful through cosmetics. Indeed, in our African village the only woman who didn't use make up was the American Peace Corps volunteer

Cosmetic enhancement by females (and in many instances men), from face paints to jewellery, are anthropologically as old as the hills themselves. With genuine respect, you're the one projecting here.

Well I did not say that women do not want to make themselves beautiful - Just that I do not think this is perceived as sort of the "must do" thing that it appears to be in some countries where women would say they do not leave the house even to shop for groceries or meet the mailman without putting on their makeup. I think some women have lost that feeling that it is about making themselves more beautiful and they rather take it as a prerequisite to not be ugly.

Also yes, I would say that certainly a majority of women do use something to make them more beautiful - makeup, clothes, accessoires. Even "Hippie Chicks" will probably use jewelry and earrings or nice clothing. Just not always and not daily. And I think "every woman in the world" is not really true, if you see that in countries with feminist tendencies this is not always the case.

More to the point regarding FFS - I think what trans women want to feel is that we do not want to HAVE to wear makeup just to perceive ourself as having a feminine appearance or to be seen by others that way. My goal was always to be able to do what was mentioned above - roll out of bed, not using makeup and still see myself in the mirror and maybe go to the bakery to get breakfast without much fuzz if I do not want to - but of course if I have the time and feel like it, I want to do some things to make myself more beautiful. Just as one day I want to wear jeans and sneakers and on some days I may feel like wearing a dress - I would not want to have to wear dresses and skirts every day just to be recognzed as female. So I guess FFS can be an option if these things are an issue. What makes it difficult for myself though is, that I do not have these problems but still have trouble with really always seeing myself - so its not about the others or that I would need makeup to "pass", if that would be the case, my decision for it would be very much clear.

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 30, 2016, 01:57:22 AM

Quotefrom: Sophia Sage on 28 October 2016, 16:18:14

What I really like about not wearing makeup [...] is waking up in the morning, rolling out of bed with my groggy lover, padding over to the bathroom, and seeing my true face in the mirror

I know. It's just that if we're being women you won't find many cis women in the world that feel similarly. I don't mean to have more than a gentle discussion on this, and certainly don't want to argue with you over a very valid POV and stance esp re animal testing, but all of my over-40 cis female friends wear makeup and are very grateful for it. I'm like them x

Actually THIS was the statement I disagreed when I said that this is not what I think all women int he world feel like. It was not that I said they do not all want to be more beautiful. I think this is something almost all women would like and most will use tools like makeup for it.

But I think there are not that many women in the world who have not been told by advertisement that they are ugly who would not at least desire to feel that way as Sophie said - waking up in the morning and see their own face in the mirror, even before there is any makup involved. I feel sorry for those women who do only feel they are themselves once they applied all those cosmetic products. Seeing ones own face should not require makeup and I believe that for most eomen this is not the case and they use makup more to make their OWN faces more beautiful instead of making their own face appear at all.

I don't think there is such a place that suits all of us. The "best" does not exist. Every surgery is personal.

Also, take everything with a grain of salt. Surgeons who do this as their main occupation do aggressive marketing. They only show their best results on their website. What you see there is the best they did.

I will be doing FFS next month. I opted for a local, down to earth, maxillofacial surgeon. No popstar surgeon -with his head in the clouds- for me.... remember Michal Jackson? he had more money than all of us combined, and "the best" surgeons, yet they botched his face.

Aaack, I can't believe I got a week behind on my favorite thread!

Catching up now:

Quote from: anjaq on October 28, 2016, 11:58:46 AMOk, yes I get that now. Indeed - Melanie Phillips described it as "deleting the parts of the personality that came to be in transition or before and are no longer needed and reboot those systems from the built in ROM memory" - more of a computer analogy, but similar in the content.

Different metaphor, same idea, absolutely.

But what if some of the built-in ROM memory got damaged along the way?  Or maybe I'm just so clumsy I always need to create feedback loops to make sure I'm doing what I think I'm doing in the way I want to be doing it.

QuoteI guess I am in the middle - on many days I do not use makeup at all - I also like to be camping or diving or hiking and thats not a place for makeup. But when I am at work or maybe going out in the evening, I do use some - but nothing like the full makeup some women do. I am lazy - I use mascara and eyeliner and kayal and maybe sometimes a lipstick. Thats it then. And I do it to be more pretty not to be seen more female or to "pass" better... same with clothes like skirts or boots with heels - nice if I want to feel pretty, going into the closet when I am just doing something else.

When I was in my thirties, I was the same way.  But in my thirties, I lived a very different life than I have in my forties.  (*cough* midlifecrisis *cough*)  I wasn't always a bohemian hippie chick, but it was nonetheless my destiny.

Different social contexts call for different social conventions.  I'll still wear makeup for a fancy night out, but the last several years those have been few and far between, and only with my parents.  I'll wear makeup for my mom.

QuoteI tried to talk about FFS and voice surgery on some occasions and was basically almost called names or I was just ignored. It gets nasty usually when I explain that I think FFS and VFS should be part of the trans health plans - here GRS and hormones and therapy are NHS covered and FFS is not (VFS only sometimes). Trans people really get angry at me for saying this.

The same thing happens when bringing up the practice of non-disclosure.  I'm baffled by this.

Okay, maybe not entirely baffled. 

Fear leads to anger.  Anger leads to hate.  Hate leads to suffering.

The question then becomes, what are they really afraid of?

QuoteThis is all about letting go. Again and again I meet this feeling that I move on by letting go. And that often if I manage to let go, something new rushes in that feels great. Like transitioning - letting go of the male persona that was not me just liberated me myself and I did not have to learn how to be womanly and gestures and behaviours and wording and how to walk and body language and all that - It rushed in from who knows were I have been hiding. I was always puzzled at people tring to learn all of this consciously... I think truely letting go just makes it happen. But I think many cannot let go - especially if they got married with kids...

Letting go is scary.

Quote from: Rachel Richenda on October 30, 2016, 03:53:13 AMEvery woman, everywhere on the planet, with the sole exception of a certain type of western feminist tries to make themselves more beautiful through cosmetics.

Yeah, I'll cop to being a certain type of western feminist.

But I'm not so sure we're the only ones who don't wear makeup regularly. 

Sometimes, for example, you may get to a point in your life where you don't want to look more outwardly beautiful.  Certain lines of work -- working class work, in particular.  Or to reduce the unwanted attention of men, because of trauma. 

Some women don't need it -- they have great skin skin, dark thick lashes, and a certain flush to their lips.  Some are allergic. 

No one should feel shamed for wanting to wear or not wear makeup. 

Me, where I am in my life right now I'm more concerned with what it takes to be inwardly beautiful, because frankly this has not been one of my strong points.  Oh, I'll still wear jewelry and nice clothes, don't get me wrong; I obviously still care about my appearance.  It's just not my focus right now.

Quote from: anjaq on October 30, 2016, 07:38:27 AMI think some women have lost that feeling that it is about making themselves more beautiful and they rather take it as a prerequisite to not be ugly.

I'm not sure it's even that -- I think a lot of the time it's just done because it's expected. It's become rote.

Quote...we do not want to HAVE to wear makeup just to perceive ourself as having a feminine appearance or to be seen by others that way. My goal was always to be able to do what was mentioned above - roll out of bed, not using makeup and still see myself in the mirror and maybe go to the bakery to get breakfast without much fuzz if I do not want to - but of course if I have the time and feel like it, I want to do some things to make myself more beautiful. Just as one day I want to wear jeans and sneakers and on some days I may feel like wearing a dress - I would not want to have to wear dresses and skirts every day just to be recognzed as female. So I guess FFS can be an option if these things are an issue.

I don't think anyone can be "on" 24/7.  And we shouldn't have to be "on" 24/7 just to get gendered properly. 

So, yeah, it's one thing to advocate makeup to make yourself prettier and more compelling... it's another to say that it's an acceptable way to deal with gender dysphoria if there are obvious problems with the underlying bone structure of one's face. 

Which, naturally, is not a problem that everyone will have to face. 

QuoteBut I think there are not that many women in the world who have not been told by advertisement that they are ugly who would not at least desire to feel that way as Sophie said - waking up in the morning and see their own face in the mirror, even before there is any makup involved. I feel sorry for those women who do only feel they are themselves once they applied all those cosmetic products.

It's a Saturday morning.  Fall out of bed.  Brush teeth, etc.  But my lover is waking up.  Hmm, what am I going to do now?  Maybe fall back into bed for a bit; I am not putting on makeup first.  He already knows I'm beautiful, I can see it written all over his... face.  And I, for one, am going to believe him.

Mmm, hungry now.  Make breakfast together, catch a bit of the news... and then get ready for the day.

Context is everything.  Permanent solutions open the doors to so many wonderful contexts.

And yes, beyond this particular issue we all share, there's a confidence to not relying on makeup as a regular practice.  A self esteem.  I can wear makeup, or not wear makeup... I'm still going to be happy with myself.  And that, I think, doesn't really have anything to do with our situation at all, for it's something that all kinds of people in the world would love to achieve.  Being at peace with one's self.  Not that this peace isn't available to regular makeup users -- then it's just a matter of doing better and there's nothing wrong with that. 

But it's this "inner peace" that I think is fairly lacking in the western world today.

Quote from: 2cherry on November 05, 2016, 07:52:55 PM
I don't think there is such a place that suits all of us. The "best" does not exist. Every surgery is personal.

Also, take everything with a grain of salt. Surgeons who do this as their main occupation do aggressive marketing. They only show their best results on their website. What you see there is the best they did.

I will be doing FFS next month. I opted for a local, down to earth, maxillofacial surgeon. No popstar surgeon -with his head in the clouds- for me.... remember Michal Jackson? he had more money than all of us combined, and "the best" surgeons, yet they botched his face.

Top post! I'm with you 100% there. Some of the most invasive and expensive surgeries I've seen have had the worst outcomes, imho. It's something I particularly love about the approach of most Thai surgeons to FFS: they work with your natural features not against them, or that's my best way of explaining it.

On the makeup thing, I just think there's a balance to be had. No-one should be made to feel they aren't beautiful unless they enhance what is naturally there. There is inner beauty and beauty with or without clothes, jewellery, makeup or MtF surgery. On the other hand, heck, doll up girls when you want. For me, it's one of the most fab things about being female. That includes facial feminisation surgery which is presumably why most people are on this thread.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on November 05, 2016, 10:16:17 PM
But what if some of the built-in ROM memory got damaged along the way?  Or maybe I'm just so clumsy I always need to create feedback loops to make sure I'm doing what I think I'm doing in the way I want to be doing it.
.....
The same thing happens when bringing up the practice of non-disclosure.  I'm baffled by this.
The question then becomes, what are they really afraid of?

I do not think the ROM can really be damaged - its just, if you do not let the content of it put itself into play, it will not happen and it has to be commanded to overwrite other parts - their protection bits have to be removed - Thinking about what is right keeps the protection on.

I think a lot of trans people are afraid of loosing THEIR face - they see themselves in the mirror they just think it does not fit the gender they want to be recognized as, so they do the surgery for the purpose of matching this up and in the process they loose their face and have to get used to a new one. Ideally it should rather be that one looks at the face after such a surgery and recogized this as ones own face immediately, unline the time before. But maybr its not that easy to know which it will be.

Some people are also scared to GRS that way - its something they feel they have to do to be women or to pass or whatever - but they do not feel an inner need to get this changed, they would be ok if it could just stay as it is and then they fight laws that demand GRS to change birth certificates (which is ok) and health insurance coverage of GRS (which is not ok!)


Regarding Makeup and being beautiful - I think in a lot of cultures beautification is wanted by women, but it is not always done with "makeup" in our sense. And it varies of course between days - working on the field needs no beauty, but celebrating on the day after that may be an opportunity for a lot of beautification.

However I think clearly beauty and being female and looking female are not the same. I also need to look female even if I roll out of bed on a Saturday noon after a long night out - I may not look beautiful, but i cannot stand if I look masculine or even male at that time - no way. Thats something different from using some makeup and styling on the evening before that to look good at the club.

Quote from: 2cherry on November 05, 2016, 07:52:55 PM

Also, take everything with a grain of salt. Surgeons who do this as their main occupation do aggressive marketing.

They only show their best results on their website. What you see there is the best they did.

Which surgeons do aggressive FFS marketing ?

Quote from: oneoftwo on November 06, 2016, 08:17:05 PM
Which surgeons do aggressive FFS marketing ?

Facial Team. But there's plenty of independant posts about them as well.

Quote from: anjaq on November 06, 2016, 05:24:59 PMI do not think the ROM can really be damaged - its just, if you do not let the content of it put itself into play, it will not happen and it has to be commanded to overwrite other parts - their protection bits have to be removed - Thinking about what is right keeps the protection on.

The desire for self-monitoring, holding onto control...

Mmm, a fear response. 

QuoteI think a lot of trans people are afraid of loosing THEIR face - they see themselves in the mirror they just think it does not fit the gender they want to be recognized as, so they do the surgery for the purpose of matching this up and in the process they loose their face and have to get used to a new one. Ideally it should rather be that one looks at the face after such a surgery and recogized this as ones own face immediately, unline the time before. But maybr its not that easy to know which it will be.

I'm not so sure about this.  First, there's nothing immediate about how we look in the mirror afterwards -- it takes months for it to settle in.  And for me, I was never afraid of losing the old face, because it was never my face in the first place. 

I wonder how much of the negative feedback you got in your circles is a fear of being truly gendered female, simply because of how much loss of power that actually entails.  And then there's no falling back on one's looks as an excuse for not actually letting go and simply going all the way.

There's an ego death that comes with the whose shebang (brow, nose, chin, jaw) of facial surgery.  Self image is going to change.  And perhaps it can be terrifying to discover that what one thought was unadulterated female gendering before was actually something else. 

Not to mention those who think one should look "trans" as a philosophical principle...