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Is there even a word for this?

Started by Vervain, November 29, 2016, 06:17:37 AM

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Vervain

I have an unusual case. I was born AFAB (and I identify as female), and my little sister was born about 4.5 years later. While both of us are autistic, my sister is much more severe and hasn't received any support. She's an adult now, and is outright offended if someone suggests she might talk to a psych.

Because of the difficulty with my sister, Mom decided that two kids was enough. But my father wanted a boy. Never mind that he had two sons from his first marriage; because they wanted split custody, they "betrayed" him, and he wrote them out of his life. He won't even see his grandchildren.

After Mom said "No" to more kids, my father began to raise me as a boy. We were homeschooled, and after the other girls I was friends with started school, they didn't have time anymore. Plus, Mom's work schedule often conflicted, and my father refused to take us to see friends, because that was ostensibly the woman's job. Mom worked nights and had an unusual work schedule (one week on, one week off), so she wasn't around to see what was going on. I was punished severely for any interest in anything feminine. The only way I could get away with "girly" stuff was by saying I was playing with my little sister. That was different in his mind.

I remember when I was 8, and I had bought a kid's makeup kit with my allowance. When I tried it on and came out to show it off, my father went into a red rage. I believe the words were, "Get that sh-t off your face! You look like a f--king clown!"

I didn't touch makeup again until I was an adult, and even then, I was scared.

Literally ANYTHING feminine was a punishable offense. On top of that, my father criticized everything that was female in nature. I was ordered in how to walk like a man, what vocal tone to use, what words were "manly", and I could seriously go on. There was enough that even at 31, I simply do not have the spoons to try to learn how to be a woman. I have been told that I'm the most masculine woman people have ever met. My fiancee Nameera has had to catch herself on pronouns, because my body language is male. I am misgendered out in public.

On top of that, I have severe (one of the worst cases my diagnosing endo had seen) PCOS, and thus puberty was like a weird mix between male and female. I experienced many of the effects that trans men describe when they start T. I have to be on hormonal birth control to help with it, and I'm on spiro, though the dose of that needs to be increased. I have dysphoria due to the male pattern hair growth (particularly on my face), and I put off bathing because every time I shave, it's another reminder. I don't go for THAT long without bathing (I don't want to gross people out!), but I used to bathe every other day, and I just can't anymore. The dysphoria has gotten worse as I've gotten older.

I also have noticed that I seem to gain some amount of male privilege. I have not experienced the majority of issues with males that most women have. I am listened to more, interrupted less, my opinions or suggestions are taken seriously, I am not cat-called on the streets, and I could go on. I don't know if this is because my body language and such reads "male" to people, but aside from rape (and that by a partner), I have not experienced the vast majority of crap that cis women deal with.

I grew up being told that being female was wrong, that any interest in feminine things was wrong, that my gender was wrong. When I moved out, I was considering transition, but luckily my female housemate was a strong, dominant woman who was also very femme, and she took me under her wing. But had I transitioned, I think my father's first reaction would have been... bad, to say the least, but I am convinced that after processing, he would be proud and elated that he finally had the son he wanted.

This is the short version. There are plenty more details I could include, but I think this should give an idea. I have been told by some trans women that because of my childhood and that I have to be on what is effectively HRT, I could call myself a trans woman. I'm not entirely comfortable with that because it feels like appropriation. But I have no idea what other term to use besides the trans* umbrella.

I've had genderfluid and genderqueer suggested before, but neither of them fit, because they imply some amount of masculinity. I do not identify as masculine; the thought is very near triggering.

So, I ask, does anybody have thoughts or ideas on what might be a fitting term? I know some dislike labels, but I consider them shorthand descriptors to get the information about me across that is concise. I also like to know what to call myself, because I am so very confused, and my brain runs in circles. I just want a term I can use that fits my identity.

Thanks in advance, all. Y'all are awesome. :)
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AnamethatstartswithE

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SadieBlake

I don't have words to identify the abuse you dealt with, I'm glad you're here and healing.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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FTMDiaries

I'm so sorry you had to go through that. But you're in good company here.

Based on your description, it sounds like you identify as a cisgender woman, but as you have suffered gender-related abuse whilst growing up you have some long-standing issues that a therapist might be able to help with. I'd even go so far as to recommend the kind of gender therapist who works with trans people... because even if you're not trans, you could benefit with having some help in sorting out how you understand & experience your gender.

Your experiences are actually very similar to what many trans people experience whilst growing up, in that many of us are forced to conform with the appearance, behaviour & socialisation of the opposite gender because she that's what our parents expect us to be. I was forced to wear dresses & was forbidden from socialising with boys even though I told my parents about my gender at a very early age and it was incredibly painful for me too. So whilst it may not be the exact same thing, there are parallels between the abuse you suffered and the abuse many of us suffered. I'm sure we'll be glad to support you if we can.

If nothing else, your experiences reinforce what trans people have been saying for decades: you can't forcibly change someone's gender against their will. But you can cause them pain & trauma  by trying.





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Sophia Sage

Vervain, I think the most appropriate turn of phrase would be "gender dysphoric." 

And sure, "trans" really fits as well.  I mean, you've got your body doing things you don't want it to do, you're getting misgendered socially, and you've been historically misgendered growing up as well.  I wouldn't worry about misappropriation, because other than having a vagina and boobs, you really understand what gender dysphoria is all about.  And it doesn't matter if you have it "easier" than most transitioners, because some transitioners certainly have it easier than others. 

That said, I prefer focusing on the process (gender dysphoria) rather than on a categorical label (trans) in the first place.  The problem with the label is that your internal truth is "female."
What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it.
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Vervain

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on November 29, 2016, 07:21:47 AM
Sounds kind of like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_posh

I've read about that! It's similar, but there are different reasons behind why they do it. It's definitely not something I'd use as a term, because that would be major appropriation. I actually had plans to write a fantasy novel with a character like that so she could learn magic, but I've not had much in the way of creativity...
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Vervain

Quote from: SadieBlake on November 29, 2016, 07:23:19 AM
I don't have words to identify the abuse you dealt with, I'm glad you're here and healing.

Thank you. <3
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Sophia Sage

Quote from: Vervain on November 29, 2016, 02:06:06 PM
I've read about that! It's similar, but there are different reasons behind why they do it. It's definitely not something I'd use as a term, because that would be major appropriation. I actually had plans to write a fantasy novel with a character like that so she could learn magic, but I've not had much in the way of creativity...

You might want to check out The Wasp Factory then, while you're at it...
What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it.
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Vervain

Quote from: FTMDiaries on November 29, 2016, 08:27:07 AM
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. But you're in good company here.

Based on your description, it sounds like you identify as a cisgender woman, but as you have suffered gender-related abuse whilst growing up you have some long-standing issues that a therapist might be able to help with. I'd even go so far as to recommend the kind of gender therapist who works with trans people... because even if you're not trans, you could benefit with having some help in sorting out how you understand & experience your gender.

Sorry for the delayed response; it's been one of those weeks.

I need to see a therapist for multiple reasons, but this is definitely one of them... along with the rest of the childhood abuse. -_-

I don't feel that cisgender fits, at this point. I suppose you could put me under the gender non-conforming umbrella, but my experiences do not match those of pretty much all of my cis women friends. If my father hadn't done what he did, I would be, but there's been so much damage that the term feels ... wrong, somehow? This may be in part due to that I was strongly pressured to hide who and what I was as a child and teen (there was a two hour interrogation when I asked my regular babysitter to help me ask my parents to cut my hair and go to school, because I was lonely).

And while I identify as female, there is just so much that is subconscious and trained that I don't even think about that is masculine. I didn't realize my body language was that... male... until Nameera slipped on a pronoun and explained why. I have had other people say I am the most masculine woman they've met.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I feel that identifying as cis would be hiding/ignoring a great deal of what I have been through, and who I am as a result. I can say there are definitely male privilege things that I don't even think twice about; I just do them. And, I don't get crap for it. My cis women friends? They can't. I apparently read so thoroughly male that I probably fall under the "one of the guys" category, and I think that men pick up on this subconsciously and react as though I were a guy. It's weird.


QuoteYour experiences are actually very similar to what many trans people experience whilst growing up, in that many of us are forced to conform with the appearance, behaviour & socialisation of the opposite gender because she that's what our parents expect us to be. I was forced to wear dresses & was forbidden from socialising with boys even though I told my parents about my gender at a very early age and it was incredibly painful for me too. So whilst it may not be the exact same thing, there are parallels between the abuse you suffered and the abuse many of us suffered. I'm sure we'll be glad to support you if we can.

Every time I relate my experience to trans folk, this is the basic response. That it is the same sort of abuse and punishment that trans people receive, and that's why some have said they think I fit best under the trans* category, although not able to provide a term except for trans woman, which I feel is misleading and appropriative. I might be wrong about that, but I think the fact that, even though I have severe hormonal issues with my PCOS that mimic what trans women deal with in regards to testosterone hormones, I don't have to worry about the myriad of things involved in transition. I have some, like needing hormonal control and anti-androgens, and I've had to learn how to be a woman, basically, which hasn't been 100% successful (and I am out of spoons to try to alter body language, vocal tones, etc; it's just not something I have the internal resources to handle). But there is, in my opinion, a significant difference. I don't identify as cis, but I have no idea where I fit under the trans* umbrella, or if there even IS a term that could apply to my experience. *le sigh*
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Vervain

Quote from: Sophia Sage on November 29, 2016, 03:44:27 PM
You might want to check out The Wasp Factory then, while you're at it...

Out of respect for my towering TBR list (well, okay, it's all digital now so I can sorta hide it on my Kindle, but previously my TBR was literally an entire bookcase), I did Google searches for reviews on the novel from trans perspectives. It definitely sounds interesting, but from what I'm reading, it doesn't quite fit me, either.

There are certainly parallels (homeschooled, isolation, raised as male, etc. etc. etc.), but from what I've read of multiple reviews and analyses (ones including quotations from the novel), the protagonist strikes me as either intersex or a trans man, thrust upon him by his father. That said, he seems to embrace the gender identity that was forced upon him, whereas I have fought against it. Granted, the protagonist is a teenager, and I remember being proud of my father praising my masculinity and the comment that I ought to have been his son, and not a daughter, at around that age, so perhaps I am judging too harshly. I think it may have resonated with me more, earlier in my life, than now.

In fact, had I found and read this book at an earlier age, I might have made the realization of what my father did to me much earlier; the scope of his actions didn't "click" until I was in my late 20s. It honestly didn't occur to me that how my father raised me was... unusual, to say the least. I was homeschooled and isolated, and my father treated me as the "Special" kid (over my sister, who he pretty much ignored) because ... well, I think because I was the older child, and because he was successful in brainwashing me into almost becoming the son he wanted. As a teen, I hated the fact that I was a girl. I wanted to be a boy, because... reasons. Because my father is a misogynistic, chauvinistic stain on humanity that convinced me that boys were far superior, and that if I was "girly" in any way whatsoever, that meant I was weak. When I presented male patterns, he would outright tell me how proud he was of me, and that... yeah. What kid doesn't want their parents' love and pride?

Sigh.
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Vervain

So, I wrote a more extensive post on my LiveJournal (yes, I still use it) about this subject and thought I should post it here as well, for other opinions. Warning: It's long. Also, profanity. I hope that isn't against the rules; I've looked and haven't seen a statement that it's not allowed. Mods, if I am incorrect, let me know, and I will edit the post accordingly. :)

Begin:

So, I happened upon my posts regarding my father raising me as male while looking for something entirely different. I re-read what I said at the time, years ago, and there is something that stuck out at me. I don't know if I didn't realize how bad it was at the time, or if I was simply in denial, or if I misunderstood the terminology, but here goes.

I said I did not experience body dysphoria. In fact, I do. I have severe PCOS; my diagnosing endocrinologist said I was one of the most severe cases she had seen in her 20+ years of practice and asked for my consent to have her student come in so she could describe what to look for. I agreed, because I know from having multiple medical folk in my family that you gain more information when the doctors are speaking to other doctors or medical students. It was enlightening, and I learned things about PCOS that I likely would not have come across otherwise.

I have extreme hirsutism. It is especially noticeable on my face. The hair grows back ridiculously fast; if I shave, I will have stubble within 12 hours, perhaps less. It is triggerinrg and dysphoric. I hate my body every time I bathe and shave. I find myself putting off bathing (not to the point of uncleanliness, though) because it affects me so very much.

I will be speaking to my PCP when I have an appointment about an increased dose of spironolactone, which is an anti-androgen that is supposed to help minimize hair growth. The dosage I have been on does literally nothing, and it is likely because of the severity of my case. My testosterone levels, when unmedicated through hormonal birth control, were above 300, which is in the range of a cis male. It's low-normal for a cis male, but it's still in the range.

Even with HBC, my testosterone levels are around 90, which I am told by multiple of my trans women friends is still way too high. They have said their doctors want it to be around 20ish, or less. That's a fairly significant difference.

I otherwise feel comfortable in my body, but this? This has haunted me for almost twenty years, since I began puberty and developed in a sort of half-male/half-female sense. For example, my voice dropped and cracked as a cis male's would, among other things that I don't think I need to list. Combined with my father raising me as male, the son he wanted (never mind the two he already had), and the punishment I received if I showed any interest whatsoever in anything "girly," this was a double ->-bleeped-<-. Not only was I being abused and tormented, my own body was betraying me.

I identify at this point as trans*, although I do not have a specific term, so I use the umbrella label. I don't think there is a term for my situation. I had considered genderqueer or genderfluid, but neither are accurate as I identify strongly as female. For all her faults, I can thank Vel for that; I moved from my oppressive family home into a household where an extremely femme woman was strong, dominant, and effectively the head of the household. She portrayed how to be a woman while not falling into stereotypical gender roles, but still enjoying "girly" things like provocative clothing and cosmetics. I learned how to apply cosmetics from her.

I honestly had previously considered transition, due to my father's ->-bleeped-<-ery with my head. I believe to this day that while his initial reaction would be negative, he would be eventually proud and happy that he had the son he wanted. That's ->-bleeped-<-ed up, beyond belief. If I hadn't lived it, I might not believe it myself. Okay, wait, I would, because I don't question other people's lived experiences and take them at their word, but I hope that my meaning is clear.

I am trans*, I am body dysphoric, and it has been commented upon, again, by trans women friends, that the medications I need, MUST, be on in order to lower my testosterone and its effects are effectively HRT. I had not considered it that way previously, but it is a good point. I do not like the person I am when I do not have medication to control those things. That person is not me, and she scares me. She hurts the people I love, and deliberately so, while I have absolutely no control whatsoever. This is why I have the diagnosis of DID-NOS, not because of my headmates, which are "arranged" in a functional collective. The reason for NOS is because I don't lose time, which is apparently essential to the diagnosis for standard DID. My psych assured me, however, that it still "counted", and it was still DID, but that she had to abide by the DSM-V guidelines. That is also why I am diagnosed with autism and not Asperger's; I was diagnosed after the DSM-V removed Asperger's as a diagnosis entirely.

And there are still remnants of my father's training. I was policed heavily in body language, vocal tones, word usage, and other things. My fiancee has had to catch herself from using male pronouns because I "read" as masculine to her; needless to say, it was entirely accidental, but still. I am also misgendered despite that much of my clothing shows considerable cleavage. I still get called "sir." In a sense, I do not consistently "pass" as a woman, even though I distinctly look like one. All the other things that read as male seem to override my assigned and identified gender. I will note it has been better for me out here in the PNW than it was in MA, where I wsa frequently misgendered. But there is a distinct cultural difference between the West and East coasts.

That doesn't mean it doesn't still happen; it just happens less often. Oh, and Texas. I got misgendered a lot there, especially when I was working for IHOP and their required uniform exacerbated my masculine facial and body features. It has been commented on that I could easily go androgynous, but that's not me. The photos I take and post are ones that I deliberately angle (what has been called the "MySpace selfie", even though I was doing that way before MySPace was even a thing) to highlight my more feminine features. If you see a photo of me straight on, well. The masculine features are pretty obvious. I delete any photos that show me as masculine or androgynous, because they are dysphoria triggers.

I have also not experienced many of the common oppression that women face. I have not been cat-called, except for one incident when I was 13. My opinion has been respected and listened to by males, and not reassigned credit to another male. I have not been the victim of online harassment, except from radical feminists (think TERFS). I do not fear walking alone at night, anywhere, even in the city, and I have never been accosted or harassed. I could go on. My experience is highly unusual, and I believe it is because I read so strongly as male that I gain a certain amount of male privilege. It's not entirely true for everything, but it is more so than other women receive. It has resulted in my feeling like an outsider in women's and feminist communities, because I simply do not share the same experiences. I have never been the victim of them. I have always been accepted as not just "one of the guys" (you know, not like those other women who are all girly and ->-bleeped-<- /sarcasm) but I would go so far as to say an "honorary male."

Come to think, this is also social dysphoria. I don't fit in this culture. I'm not sure there is a culture on this planet that I would fit into. At the risk of sounding all woo-woo, I have always had memories of where I came from, a place where gender roles effectively did not exist, and the only differences were physical. Yes, there were trans people there, too, but it was accepted and respected, because all it boiled down to was a body shift. I come from that, and it has also affected my outlook on society. It has meant that on a fundamental level, I do not understand, or grok, this culture, or any that I have been exposed to here on Earth.

It has also been commented upon by other trans women that I am effectively transitioning due to my medication requirements and that I have had to learn how to female. It is not something I was brought up into, and while I identify strongly as a woman and femme, it's not something that comes particularly naturally to me. It's something I have had to work for, and hard. It has been difficult as hell, and I'm sure my trans friends reading this understand what I'm talking about. I dearly hope that doesn't sound approriative, as it is meant to reflect my experiences and the similarities that several trans women have commented on. I do not mean this to come across in the "token friend" sense, because it has been said by at least a half dozen trans women, perhaps more. I don't remember for sure, but when that many people comment in agreement, I listen and pay attention. I am absolutely certain there are trans women who naturally gravitate towards feminine body language and etc., but I certainly do not, and I am not the only one by far, according to multiple shared experiences.

I don't quite know where I'm going with this, except that reading those old posts made me re-think how I have identified myself and the experiences I have. I identify as trans* because I certainly do not fit in the category of a cis woman, but there's no real descriptor for my situation. I've bitterly called it "gender-->-bleeped-<-(ed-up)" before. I wish there was a term I could use, because that would help me define it in shorthand, rather than needing to explain the entire childhood/adolescent experience. If anyone has thoughts, please do share. I know I am not bigender, agender, nor pangender, and while some have suggested intersex because of my medical condition, I feel that is absolutely appropriative and I will not use it, period.

I looked up a list of gender identities, and one that seems that might fit is gender non-conforming. But that doesn't highlight the intense identity as a woman, either. Another suggested is transfeminine, but I also don't know if that's appropriative. It might not be, since I use trans* and identify strongly as a feminine woman. I welcome thoughts especially from those friends of mine who are trans, because I am out of my element and uncertain. I also do not wish to intrude upon other people's identities, and misuse labels that do not apply to me.

Anyway. I think I'll stop here, because this is already long enough. I very much work through issues by journaling online, where others can read and comment (and I feel less alone than if I were to keep a private journal, which may just be a me thing), but damn I can get long.

Cookies of choice and much love for those who have read this far. I love you guys. <3
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AnxietyDisord3r

Some people consider PCOS to be an intersex condition.

That said, I and I think many others can relate to the gender-related abuse you went through growing up. As well as the dysphoria.
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Tessa James

Thanks for the cookie and OMG have you been through some too interesting life experiences.  It feels like an honor to learn about such very personal angst and abuse.  You are heroic in my eyes simply for surviving and now apparently thriving.  Good on ya mate as our Aussie friends might say ;)
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Sophia Sage

What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it.
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KarlMars

I'm glad you survived your childhood. Do you ever question whether your father has some underlying gender identity or sexuality problem that he has bottled up inside?

Vervain

Quote from: alienbodybuilder on November 30, 2016, 03:19:21 PM
I'm glad you survived your childhood. Do you ever question whether your father has some underlying gender identity or sexuality problem that he has bottled up inside?

I've thought about it, yes. But after a lot of consideration, I ultimately came to the conclusion doesn't fit him, though. Trust me on this.

That being said, he suffers from Short Man Syndrome.
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Sno

Hi, wow, long post!

From what you have described,  trans feminine is a fair way to describe it factually - but I really understand that being designated female at birth could confuse matters somewhat, and I sense that you are looking for something that you can use to help folk understand that you are not the average cis-gendered female - genderqueer (although a blanket term), is useful in this regard, as it covers the basic differentiation that we think or behave differently, (I'm a demigirl btw, as in many respects my behaviour and reasoning is femme), to our assigned gender.

We are very definitely trans*, just a little outside the 'norm' :)

Rowan

(Hides cookie quickly, I'm supposed to be on a diet ;) )
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Vervain

Quote from: Sno on November 30, 2016, 05:07:46 PM
Hi, wow, long post!

From what you have described,  trans feminine is a fair way to describe it factually - but I really understand that being designated female at birth could confuse matters somewhat, and I sense that you are looking for something that you can use to help folk understand that you are not the average cis-gendered female - genderqueer (although a blanket term), is useful in this regard, as it covers the basic differentiation that we think or behave differently, (I'm a demigirl btw, as in many respects my behaviour and reasoning is femme), to our assigned gender.

We are very definitely trans*, just a little outside the 'norm' :)

Rowan

(Hides cookie quickly, I'm supposed to be on a diet ;) )

Virtual cookies are diet-friendly! :)

The more I think about it, transfeminine sounds more appropriate because I can use it as an adjective for woman -- ie, transfeminine woman. Genderqueer woman sounds like an oxymoron to me. I know there are some dfab folks that are genderqueer who still use female pronouns and are femme, but I have not had good luck in those communities, and I have found multiple to be trans-misogynistic, and terfs, basically. I did not expect the genderqueer communities that I found to be so toxic and outright saying things like amab genderqueers can't really be genderqueer because they benefit from male privilege. Basically, terfs BS but I saw it enough that I am not comfortable in those groups.
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