personally i think it is very irresponsible of a pasture who may have a transgender person in her or her congregation, not to research or try to understand that person. pretty sure it is the least of what Jesus would do.

1 Samuel 24:13
As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes forth wickedness'; but my hand shall not be against you.

Matthew 7:20
So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Indeed, by their fruit you will definitely know them. Not by any other means.

I was homeless when I was 18. I was kicked out of my parents house by my alcoholic father. One day, all my stuff stood on the side of the road. Everything I had. A Christian family took care of me, and shared their house and bread with me. They were the only ones who cared about me. That is true faith! not those hypocrites who con others all week, and sit in the front row of church, judging others all day long.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

Quote from: RobynD on November 22, 2016, 12:11:31 PM

The baptist church i sometimes attend - the pastor does not see it as a sin - a direct quote from him " it is medical care, how can it be a sin?". He is a decent friend of mine.

Oops. Wrong. It is not a medical condition. It is something we are born with and somehow seen as a medical condition. How many people just woke up today and said..I feel like being Trans? I would bet the number is small if it existed at all. Most of the comments at Susan's has been that we realized we were different around 5 years old. In introduction after introduction the story is the same. Nobody I know has thus far had God visit them and say "You are going to be transgender, live with it.

Careful there.  If being a transgender person is not something requiring medical care, there is no good reason for insurance to cover the stuff in the WPATH Standards of Care[/i}, and a whole bunch of folks who don't happen to have a huge stack of cash available will get left out in the cold.

They think it's a sin because they do not read their bible for themselves. The bible says eunuchs are good, it says judging others = bad. It says live by the law or live by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus said himself that the whole law can be summed up in these 2 things: Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind. And Love thy neighbor as thyself. If you are doing those 2 things you will make it just fine.
And to the others who say that you don't have to believe the bible to be a christian...that is a bunch of hogwash. You are only a christian if you believe in Jesus and have called on him to save you. Also as far as homosexuality is concerned....go try to find that word in the bible. Everything in the greek has been shown to be relative to idol worship.

I have met very few Christians who espouse the literal way of Christ as their own. Most I've encountered have an air of sanctimony that makes me cringe. Many, if not the majority, of them tend to be Christian in name, only. Fewer truly believe what they say. Even fewer live up to their own words and beliefs. A very, very small percentage actually live up to the name and I'm sure there are those unaccounted for that do good works without the praise and still believe they are doing the Lord's work (and do so joyfully).

I will admit that I have not read this whole thread and I am not religious, but my wife was watching that.new Queen Latifah show where her son is trans and her pastor boyfriend quotes Dueteronomy 22...5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

I was surprised at this and looked it up.  Not that it makes a hill of beans about how I feel and who I am, but for it to actually appear there was a bit of a shock.

There is a lot in the OT books that is legalistic, two of the common mentioned is wearing clothing of mixed fabrics and eating shellfish such as clams and lobster. There are darker and stranger ones in terms of our modern culture than that too.

To me a sin is something that hurts people and is unloving to them. God is Love, that (Christ) fulfills the old laws that were levied on Israel.  You have to do some mighty mental gymnastics to get to the point that you could say loving someone is deny them the ability to be their true selves or love the people they love.

All mentions of anything even close to ->-bleeped-<- in the new testament is not attributed to Christ but to his followers in writing letters to new churches. It very open to both linguistic and cultural interpretation as to what those verses even mean.

Personally i am not sure how anyone that is Christian can be a bible literalist or biblical inerrancy proponent. To begin with, it is set of books written by people. These shows man's relationship to God and within the Godhead, Christ as a savior. Beyond that it is full of inexactness and some contradictions. Bible inerrancy as a theology in my opinion, is worshiping the bible and not God.

This one is personally significant as it was used to justify some pretty horrific treatment I received growing up.  I've also heard it used against women wearing pantsuits and jeans.  "Mysterious ways', indeed...

Quote from: NikkiB51 on February 21, 2017, 03:22:38 PM
I will admit that I have not read this whole thread and I am not religious, but my wife was watching that.new Queen Latifah show where her son is trans and her pastor boyfriend quotes Dueteronomy 22...5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

I'd just like to note that the translation of Deuteronomy 22:5 above is the King James Bible or one of its derivatives or relatives.  What you are reading there is 3500 year old Hebrew translated to Greek, translated to Classical Greek, translated to Roman Latin, translated to Ecclesiastical Latin, translated to Middle English, rewritten to the English of King James' time.

The text changes further in the New International Version:

Quote5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

The first thing to note is that the two places that hint at clothing in the translationsof this verse are really two different words in the Hebrew original. "Men's clothing" represents the Hebrew "keli-never" which means "all of the things of manhood", i.e. clothes, armor, weapons, tools, etc. "Women's clothing" represents the Hebrew word "simlath" which was the square mantel that women wore.

Amusingly, almost all of the basic articles of clothing worn by members of the nomadic Hebrew tribe of 3500 years ago were identical between men and women.  The major variation was that the fighting men, or "warriors" for those who like that romantic turn of phrase, wore padded coverings of different materials as an outer layer.

If we go back to the original Hebrew and translate without trying to put a theological spin on the text, we get something like:

Quote
The [woman|weak persons] shall not put on [the weapons|armor of a warrior], neither shall a [warrior] put on a [woman|weak person]'s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

This appears to be a prohibition on dressing noncombatants in armor to make an armed force appear larger, or hiding a fighting force among the women and children.  I can certainly understand that being considered a Bad Idea.
[/quote]

Quote from: RobynD on February 21, 2017, 03:33:28 PM
Personally i am not sure how anyone that is Christian can be a bible literalist or biblical inerrancy proponent. To begin with, it is set of books written by people. These shows man's relationship to God and within the Godhead, Christ as a savior. Beyond that it is full of inexactness and some contradictions. Bible inerrancy as a theology in my opinion, is worshiping the bible and not God.

You and I believe they are books written by people.  But for the majority of Christians they are the inerrant word of God, written by people who were supernaturally led by God's Holy Spirit to make God's intent clearly known in writing.  Understanding their mindset reveals this problem in a different light.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: Deborah on February 21, 2017, 06:15:23 PM
You and I believe they are books written by people.  But for the majority of Christians they are the inerrant word of God, written by people who were supernaturally led by God's Holy Spirit to make God's intent clearly known in writing.  Understanding their mindset reveals this problem in a different light.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Thanks Deborah - Definitely get their position on it and to some extent their motivation, but I can't get my mind around how people arrive at that belief. It is something my intellect will not allow I guess.

Quote from: Michelle_P on February 21, 2017, 04:16:03 PM
I'd just like to note that the translation of Deuteronomy 22:5 above is the King James Bible or one of its derivatives or relatives.  What you are reading there is 3500 year old Hebrew translated to Greek, translated to Classical Greek, translated to Roman Latin, translated to Ecclesiastical Latin, translated to Middle English, rewritten to the English of King James' time.

wow! guess that is a good thing to keep in mind when reading the bible.

People are never going to agree when disputing what anonymous authors in an alien culture meant when they wrote something down 2500 to 3000 years ago.  It doesn't really matter either as it is the Church which defines the meaning of scripture and not the other way around.  This is explicitly true in the Catholic Church and even though they won't admit it, is true for Protestants too.  If it wasn't then there would be agreement on its meaning and its obvious to the casual observer that there is not now nor has there ever been agreement among Protestants about anything, including scripture.

So if you want to know if it's a sin just look to what your Church teaches.  If you don't like their definition then find another Church with a definition you do like.

It's also helpful to know what the definition of sin is.

SIN Human activity that is contrary to God's will.  "Lexham Bible Dictionary"

Or

SIN Defined by theologians as any thought, word, or deed that transgresses the law of God.  "Catholic Bible Dictionary"

It really has nothing to do with the modern concept that sin is that which harms somebody else.



It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

i knew the bible was translated but never realized it could be so many different languages.

Quote from: Deborah on February 25, 2017, 09:52:30 AM
So if you want to know if it's a sin just look to what your Church teaches.  If you don't like their definition then find another Church with a definition you do like.

prefer that it all boils down to each persons personal relationship with Jesus Christ. all sin will be forgiven if we except him as our savior. not sure what to think of any of it but, i am saving that one for when it matters. c(=

Quote from: NikkiB51 on February 21, 2017, 03:22:38 PM
I will admit that I have not read this whole thread and I am not religious, but my wife was watching that.new Queen Latifah show where her son is trans and her pastor boyfriend quotes Dueteronomy 22...5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

I was surprised at this and looked it up.  Not that it makes a hill of beans about how I feel and who I am, but for it to actually appear there was a bit of a shock.

I was recently listening to a rabbi talk on this issue and he was saying that this proscription is actually proscribing being false in one's dealings with other people.  So in fact the person who cross dresses in public is, ironically, being true (i.e. revealing to the world openly their inner sense of their own gender identity, at no small cost either I might add) in their dealings with other people and actually fulfilling the biblical command that is given in this passage.

Also, many Christians take the Bible literally and the people who wrote it, Jews, most of them don't take it literally at all anymore.  In my view it is a colossal error to take the Bible literally.

The main thing is keep then10 words of Yehuah the word of Yah for the first 4 shows our love and respect for him,the last 6 shows how we deal with one another. The TaNaK is the bible and Deuteronomy is the book of rememberance and the new testament is testimony and letters for the scripture quoted in the new testament is out of the old testament. The problem is there is not old and new testament one on going message to the house of Israel,i don't buy into the Christian replacement theology..

Quote from: DawnOday on December 10, 2016, 05:17:36 PM
Oops. Wrong. It is not a medical condition. It is something we are born with and somehow seen as a medical condition. How many people just woke up today and said..I feel like being Trans? I would bet the number is small if it existed at all. Most of the comments at Susan's has been that we realized we were different around 5 years old. In introduction after introduction the story is the same. Nobody I know has thus far had God visit them and say "You are going to be transgender, live with it.

For the purpose of his support and the simplicity of interaction i did not explain the nuances of it all. The truth is it is medically treated and dysphoria itself is a mental state that can be corrected by any number of things that largely involve doctors and pharmacists. However, I do get the nuance there.

It's something we're apparently born with but for a lot of people it has the hallmarks of a disease. It makes them feel terrible and it's not just because of the social constructs around them. I personally consider it a disease in my own case. Not passing judgement on others' cases but for me, it results in disability of sorts, and a problem and I'm happy for someone to consider it a medical condition since it's being treated medically. People commit suicide over this thing they are "born with"... it's not statistically harmless. And just like the cancer patient who is cured of cancer and goes back to their normal life after, hopefully when I am treated I can go back to mine.

That the pastor saw it as such seems quite reasonable to me, at least it is more helpful to consider trans people as having a condition through no fault of their own than being willing deviants and sinners.

Now they just need to understand it's not like being psychotic or delusional, and "mentally ill" in that sense. Since trans people can usually function as well as anyone else in society to the point of not being noticed for what they are unless they make themselves known.