Quote from: Diane on January 26, 2008, 12:12:00 PM
They way i see it, stealth  is the end of ones transition.  It is the completion of ones goal to living your life as your true self.

QFT!!!!!11111
R > > > > > >

Quote from: Diane on January 26, 2008, 12:12:00 PM
They way i see it, stealth  is the end of ones transition.  It is the completion of ones goal to living your life as your true self.

i wholeheartedly concord but it seems that some of us have problems grasping this idea.

Quote from: Natasha on January 26, 2008, 06:20:39 PM

Quote from: Diane on January 26, 2008, 12:12:00 PM
They way i see it, stealth  is the end of ones transition.  It is the completion of ones goal to living your life as your true self.

i wholeheartedly concord but it seems that some of us have problems grasping this idea.

I concur as well. For me. I would never put someone down for being out and active, but I didn't go through this to be trans. I went through it to be a guy. On the other hand, I'm not so paranoid that I care if someone finds out. It is part of me, just not a primary part. Hell, I'm more embarrassed when people out me as a lawyer on social occasions. Odds are that'll cause me more trouble. (And yes, I've heard all the lawyer jokes thank you very much. No, I don't particularly want to give legal advice when I'm half in the bag.)

Dennis

Quote from: Tink on January 25, 2008, 08:39:23 PM
Oh I don't think "fear" is the word.  It's called "completion"...done, over, end, finish, finito!  When your transition is over, it is done with.  Your TS history becomes your past and you reach a sense of peace of mind and balance which you don't want to jeopardize for any reason.  At least that is my take on it!

tink

indeed tink  you hit the nail right on .

I'm going to reply before I read any other replies. I completely understand why someone would live stealth. The desire to lead as normal a life as possible is definitely understandable. I'm 38, I've lived (probably) 40% of my life in a guy's body. I can't change that as much as I'd like to. Going forward, after transition, I don't have any intentions on hiding my past BUT I also don't plan on letting people know how I spent the first 38 years of my life either, unless they NEED to know. The way I see it is that I'm going to be active in the community, maybe even online afterward, who knows, but I'm not planning on doing anything other than blending in and leading a fairly normal (whatever that is) life. I will still keep in touch with my friends and all and I feel like I'm going to really help out during transition, but I'm not transitioning to "be" transsexual. I know nothing changes that ever, but I don't need to embody that in everything I do and say in my life. I feel like I've worked hard to get to where I am with transition, if I want to be stealth, that's my prerogative.

I personally couldn't make up a past and lie about everything in my past, but again, that might be right for some people. I had a caring family who have loved and supported me through transition, same with my friends. I'm not just going to walk away from them. Anyway, just my thoughts about it. To those of you who are stealth, IT IS YOUR LIFE, do what you have to do. To those of you who don't believe in stealth, IT IS YOUR LIFE, do what you have to do, I appreciate the work you do in the community, if you do. I have many friends who make a big deal out of not being stealth but part of having the ability to be stealth is being passable enough to BE stealth.  Not to be mean or anything, but seriously, these friends think that they are taking the moral high road by proclaiming they COULD be stealth, but choose not to. To really have a CHOICE, don't you have to conceivably have both options available to you? I'm talking everything, voice, everything that goes with passability. To slam people for being stealth when that isn't an option for one's self is just...I don't know, not right or something.

Anyway, my thoughts on the matter are summed up by the sentence:  "Do what you need to do and let people live their lives."

Quote from: candifla on January 26, 2008, 06:24:52 PM
For a community that asks and even begs for acceptance, civility and equality from the general population, we sure are mean to each other: i.e., the activists vs. the steath, the passable vs. non-passable, the old-timers vs. the new-comers, etc.

I don't foist my opinions, views, politics, lifestyle on anyone else, why must you do that to me?

You really want me to be out and take part in speaking for the TG community? Are you sure?

Because I propose that these people should not be allowed transition:
1. No one older than 18: if you're too old, your body won't be as readily malleable.
2. No one of color. If you're asian, black, hispanic, indian or other, you're already facing an uphill battle in this Anglo-White country.
3. No one who is NOT a hermaphridite. You got a normal set. Be happy.
4. No one who is religious. Listen to your god, it's evil to do so.
5. No one who is poor. I don't want my taxes paying for your unhappiness.
6. No one who is married, a parent, or a siamese twin: you've got others to think about.
7. No one working in food service. I don't want you freaks touching my burgers.

Oh there are more things i'd like to see, but if you REALLY want me to be out and proud, those are the laws i think we should pass.

Vote CandiFLA 2008.
And I approve this message.

I honestly hope that this was a very poor attempt at humor and sarcasm CandiFLA.

its not humour, it IS sarcasm... and i totally agree with thier POINT.... if you took time to look....

the activists want trans people to all be out, they suffer, so should we....
same in the gay, black, any community
if you're seen as colaborating, your evil and a baddie....
'uncle toms' in the black movement,

and auntie ->-bleeped-<-s here imo... if you're seen as not totally for the movement, your naughty...
going stealth is denying your ->-bleeped-<-ness... your bad! you shouldnt do that! stand up for free ->-bleeped-<-s!

Sod that, ill take the normal life cheers
R >

Quote from: Rachael on January 26, 2008, 07:44:17 PM
its not humour, it IS sarcasm... and i totally agree with thier POINT.... if you took time to look....

the activists want trans people to all be out, they suffer, so should we....
same in the gay, black, any community
if you're seen as colaborating, your evil and a baddie....
'uncle toms' in the black movement,

and auntie ->-bleeped-<-s here imo... if you're seen as not totally for the movement, your naughty...
going stealth is denying your ->-bleeped-<-ness... your bad! you shouldnt do that! stand up for free ->-bleeped-<-s!

Sod that, ill take the normal life cheers
R >

I don't think the activists think like that Rachael, not the majority at least. I want to be out someday. I want to be out to my students so that there won't be another kid like me feeling he/she is alone in this world. I went through my entire childhood feeling alone and like a freak. I managed to survive it, but how many children didn't? I want to be open so that those kids I teach will have someone they can talk to, for whatever reason.

I'm not going to do it for the rights of LGBT people everywhere. I'm going to do it for my students. I understand many of you ladies and gentlemen feel differently, but this is my plan. You are welcome to do what you will with your own lives.

As for my objection to CandiFLA, I didn't see a point to the post other then to incite anger. If I missed the point, then it didn't come across clear for me, and I apologize.

Does it hurt us?  probably
Is there anything we can do?  No.  We can't force peeps to come out.  I'm stealth and plan to live this way for good.  I'm transitioning for myself not for other peeps.  Your transition is yours and you decide what you want to do & what you don't want to do with your life.

Wow, candiFLA sure knows how to make an entrance.  He/she deals in biting, acid, almost poisonous sarcasm.  In the pen of someone of Voltaire's caliber and the social issues of his day, it was good for a laugh, and to make the people think of change needed for a free society, and to effect that change.

Now what is the purpose of the hounds loosed by candiFLA?  Is it to make a good impression here with the rest of us?  She could have done it that in a much nicer way, a kinder, gentler "newbie?"

Did she do it to open a conversation?  I don't know.  Perhaps opening a poll and asking who prefers a vinegar douche could have had the same effect without getting anyone too upset.

Sometimes dynamite gets into the wrong hands as illustrated in this limerick:

Willie found some dynamite.
He couldn't understand it quite.
Curiosity didn't pay.
It rained Willie for seven days!

Where is Voltaire when we need him?

Cindy

Renate,

Saying some activists don't understand our views
is obvious by the way they speak.
The lack of empathy is at the root of it, and
to empathise, you've got to try to view the
world from someone else's point of view.

I've seen plenty of accusations over the last 15 years
so I don't think I "misunderstood" these activists
of various ilk.

Quote from: Renate on January 26, 2008, 08:05:55 PM

Quote from: Natasha on January 26, 2008, 06:20:39 PM
i wholeheartedly concord but it seems that some of us have problems grasping this idea.

Um, let's not discount some people's views by saying that they don't understand your views.
Yes, your opinions are easy to grasp.  I just don't find them very compelling to me personally.

i was actually referring to the people that want stealth transsexuals to turn into public activists.  in my view this is nonsense and as i said previously, it isn't happening in this lifetime.  people do whatever is best for them and that is what should count.  if someone wants to become an activist, good for them.  yet that's not the reason i transitioned for but & my views and choices should be respected as well.

Quote from: Renate on January 27, 2008, 12:07:47 AM
People can still understand exactly what you are saying, yet vehemently disagree.

Renate

that's ok as long as people don't get all rowdy & rude on the forums.

Quote from: cindybc on January 26, 2008, 10:33:27 PM
Wow, candiFLA sure knows how to make an entrance.  He/she deals in biting, acid, almost poisonous sarcasm.  In the pen of someone of Voltaire's caliber and the social issues of his day, it was good for a laugh, and to make the people think of change needed for a free society, and to effect that change.

Now what is the purpose of the hounds loosed by candiFLA?  Is it to make a good impression here with the rest of us?  She could have done it that in a much nicer way, a kinder, gentler "newbie?"

Did she do it to open a conversation?  I don't know.  Perhaps opening a poll and asking who prefers a vinegar douche could have had the same effect without getting anyone too upset.

Sometimes dynamite gets into the wrong hands as illustrated in this limerick:

Willie found some dynamite.
He couldn't understand it quite.
Curiosity didn't pay.
It rained Willie for seven days!

Where is Voltaire when we need him?

Cindy

Hey now, you get nothing different from lol ol me
newbie or not, she made an interesting point, points dont have to be 'agreeable' but it sure got people talking, and i wholeheartedly stand by thier actions... it was good... STOP GETTING SO EASILY OFFENDED....
guys, its a forum, debate, when someone plays devils advocate, learn to see that, and not scream and cry if someone says something 'nasty' the real world doesnt have such strict play nice rules...
They raised a point, the way they did it was provocative and ingenious... it made us all read it, but sadly it seems few have taken time to SEE the point...

There are many views in the community, those, sadly are real ones, not thiers, but such is 'devils advocate'  im quite suprised considering the supposed english speaking population of this board that internet sarcasm is above you all....

The point was that If we are to bow to one groups demand, then they are to do the same as unwaveringly as they request us to...

I have come in contact with Trans activists who claim stealth is 'another closet' that your hiding your 'true self' 'deciving' 'lieing' and that you have a duty to fight for the rights of your 'brothers and sisters'


Like candi, i have this to say: PUSH OFF.... my life, my rules, my way on the highway.

as renate said, its a personal thing. The only person who has any say on my choices in life, is me... we hold bi monthly board meetings to discuss progress and status updates then my board of directors goes to coffee and possibly lunch... well i do atleast.
The thing is, as much as we dont want to admit it, there are strong views around, no amount of head in the sand liberalism will change that. Some are good, some are bad, some are downright ugly.... Candi just demonstrated that two can play that game...

inocent calls for transpeople to be 'out' are as offensive, and  derogatory, and insulting to someone who wants to live thier life as a normal member of THIER gender, as telling the 40yo unpassing pretransition m2f that they cant because thier too old and too ugly....
swings and roundabouts ladys, gentlemen and gentlethings...
swings and roundabouts.
R

Quote from: Rachael on January 27, 2008, 02:47:48 AM

Quote from: cindybc on January 26, 2008, 10:33:27 PM
Wow, candiFLA sure knows how to make an entrance.  He/she deals in biting, acid, almost poisonous sarcasm.  In the pen of someone of Voltaire's caliber and the social issues of his day, it was good for a laugh, and to make the people think of change needed for a free society, and to effect that change.

Now what is the purpose of the hounds loosed by candiFLA?  Is it to make a good impression here with the rest of us?  She could have done it that in a much nicer way, a kinder, gentler "newbie?"

Did she do it to open a conversation?  I don't know.  Perhaps opening a poll and asking who prefers a vinegar douche could have had the same effect without getting anyone too upset.

Sometimes dynamite gets into the wrong hands as illustrated in this limerick:

Willie found some dynamite.
He couldn't understand it quite.
Curiosity didn't pay.
It rained Willie for seven days!

Where is Voltaire when we need him?

Cindy

Hey now, you get nothing different from lol ol me
newbie or not, she made an interesting point, points dont have to be 'agreeable' but it sure got people talking, and i wholeheartedly stand by thier actions... it was good... STOP GETTING SO EASILY OFFENDED....
guys, its a forum, debate, when someone plays devils advocate, learn to see that, and not scream and cry if someone says something 'nasty' the real world doesnt have such strict play nice rules...
They raised a point, the way they did it was provocative and ingenious... it made us all read it, but sadly it seems few have taken time to SEE the point...

There are many views in the community, those, sadly are real ones, not thiers, but such is 'devils advocate'  im quite suprised considering the supposed english speaking population of this board that internet sarcasm is above you all....

The point was that If we are to bow to one groups demand, then they are to do the same as unwaveringly as they request us to...

I have come in contact with Trans activists who claim stealth is 'another closet' that your hiding your 'true self' 'deciving' 'lieing' and that you have a duty to fight for the rights of your 'brothers and sisters'


Like candi, i have this to say: PUSH OFF.... my life, my rules, my way on the highway.

as renate said, its a personal thing. The only person who has any say on my choices in life, is me... we hold bi monthly board meetings to discuss progress and status updates then my board of directors goes to coffee and possibly lunch... well i do atleast.
The thing is, as much as we dont want to admit it, there are strong views around, no amount of head in the sand liberalism will change that. Some are good, some are bad, some are downright ugly.... Candi just demonstrated that two can play that game...

inocent calls for transpeople to be 'out' are as offensive, and  derogatory, and insulting to someone who wants to live thier life as a normal member of THIER gender, as telling the 40yo unpassing pretransition m2f that they cant because thier too old and too ugly....
swings and roundabouts ladys, gentlemen and gentlethings...
swings and roundabouts.
R

Interesting, but as I said, I missed the point of Candi's post. I honestly still have a hard time seeing the point you describe in that post, but that might just be my own limitations.

When I started this post, I didn't expect the tempers to start flaring like this. I was simply curious if my friends view might be valid. Since I have only lived as a woman full time in stealth for 2 weeks, I did not feel qualified to answer the question with any conviction, I still don't. Though I was pleased to read all the intelligent  replies to this post.

I think the end result is that everyone must simply live their lives as they feel they need to. Things are getting better, and I think it has to do with the friends we make. If you want a good indicator as to how things are progressing, look at the jobs that discourage LGBT the most. I know for a fact that the education field is growing more open and accepting of LGBT women, and this includes transwomen and transmen. So things as they are are getting better.

So if you want to come out, kudos to you. If you want to stay in stealth, go for it. Do what you feel you need to do to be safe and, more importantly, be happy.

thats the point... this is a fire and brimstone subject.... prepare for passion....


as for lgbt women... lgbt women are bisexual women or lesbians.... i wholely disagree that a medical condition is lumped with sexuality....


As far as my view goes, i dont really care how accepting the world is of transsexuality.... My life is normal and mundane, and unlike some who view stealth as hard work. Id actually have to put EFFORT into outing myself.... as stealth just happened naturally to me.
R

Hi Rachael. Personally my dear, I don't give two screws for CandiFLA's ......er,  enlightenment.
I know all about meanies that could be detrimental to my health, but until I run into one of those there tobacco chewing read neck decides to snuff me out I am going to continue enjoying life.
It ain't some nut case on a board that is going to shake me up.

Cindy   

firstly, i dont like you calling someone on this board with an opinion that differers to yours, a nutcase....


and those 'tobaco chewing rednecks' are here too cindy... on your precious board.
R >

I have my own opinions but I don't ask for anyone else to accept my opinions and surely everyone else is also entitled to their own opinion. My opinions arise from my own evaluations of a given thing or occurrence and I do not expect every one to adhere to them. They are free to take them or leave them as they wish.  But I will ask for forgiveness for one thing and that is for having called a certain person a nutcase.

Cindy

 

do unto others....

Thier opinions are as valid as your own, as valid as my own, agreement has nothing to do with validity. Something the internet seems to miss...
R >