Quote from: SadieBlake on January 18, 2017, 10:10:33 AM
OP, you fear losing wealth and status? Try doing this without those. The only logic is what you decide you want and how you go about getting it. When I read your post I want to retitle it to "why can't i just make the materialistic choice?"

Because too may people depended on me for support. I dealt with my dysphoria with immersing myself in work, which paid the bills.

Later, after the kids left home, Mrs and me just slowly drifted apart. We lived two separate lives.

Those old feelings that never went away, came back stronger than ever. This time, I had the knowledge, resources and money to transition. So I did. End of story. Beginning of new life.

OMG!!! I don't  know what to say! I just discovered this thread and read through all the responses and almost every single one of them made me tear up because it reflected exactly what I was/am going through.

The question from the wife:"why did you marry me when you knew you were trans?" That's exactly what she keeps blaming me for ever since I came out to her.

We somehow need to find a way to explain our loved ones that it really is NOT A CHOICE to be trans but hardcoded into our brains without having any kind of control toI make this go away. I have yet to find those smart but simple words...

Maybe the entirety of this thread could be convincing enough that I'm not the only"crazy" person with this idea to quickly change genders because it's trendy at the moment...


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Quote from: JessicaSondelli on January 19, 2017, 06:56:51 AM
The question from the wife:"why did you marry me when you knew you were trans?" That's exactly what she keeps blaming me for ever since I came out to her.

We somehow need to find a way to explain our loved ones that it really is NOT A CHOICE to be trans but hardcoded into our brains without having any kind of control toI make this go away. I have yet to find those smart but simple words...

Yes, I agree that it's not a choice to be trans.  We were born this way, with a transgender brain.  The scientific evidence supports that.  Our gender identities are established by age 3.  So we've known we were female from a very early age.  Or if we weren't fully aware, we at least knew something was wrong, even as children.

So, why did everyone get married?  Being trans is not a choice, but getting married is indeed a choice.  Getting married, having sex, having children - all as a man - they were all choices that you consciously made.  Why?  Why did you do those things if you felt and knew that it wasn't right?

Sorry, I'm sure I'm offending a lot of people, but I really struggle to understand how so many late transitioners were able to live as husbands and fathers for so many years, if their core gender identity has been that of a female all along.  Please help me understand.

Quote from: Mirya on January 19, 2017, 09:57:52 AM
So, why did everyone get married?  Being trans is not a choice, but getting married is indeed a choice.  Getting married, having sex, having children - all as a man - they were all choices that you consciously made.  Why?  Why did you do those things if you felt and knew that it wasn't right?

Sorry, I'm sure I'm offending a lot of people, but I really struggle to understand how so many late transitioners were able to live as husbands and fathers for so long.  Please help me understand.

I never married, but that didn't stop me from trying. In my case I spent the entirety of my twenties convinced that if I found the right girl and settled down, had a few kids, then that would "fix" me. With enough distractions you can put off dealing with your issues for a long time, and simply babysitting my nephew I can say that small children are very good at sucking up your attention.

Mirya I understand how you can not understand why we did what we did and get married and have kids. I can't speak for everyone but for me I was in such a negative environment towards anybody trans I was afraid and forced to bury it. I didn't get married or have kids as a cover I did want those. I love my family so much. But lived my life how ppl around me expected me to live it. I thought this was something I could live with and suppress.  But unfortunately in my case it has come to a point I can't even control my being trans.  It consumes every waking thought and causes me much inner unhappiness to the point I can't not act on it if I want to be in a good place of any remote happiness.  It has come to the point I can't enjoy anybody's company and sometimes even take my unhappiness out on the ppl I love. Imo transitioning and even how it effects others directly is better then the alternative path I feel I'm headed for if I remain with my birth gender. Yes I did choose to get married and yes I choose to have kids. But in no way could I have ever foreseen how being trans would come to effect me in my years to come. And if I want to rly balance someone for this I blame every bigot that has made me live in shame and bury the fact I was trans.  Me being this way has nothing to do with anybody and nor does it effect them in the least other then the fact they may know I'm trans. I can guarantee the fact I would have transitioned as a kid and this would have never effected anybody in my future but because of other ppl I have made the choices I made to live in safety and acceptance.

Quote from: Mirya on January 19, 2017, 09:57:52 AM
Yes, I agree that it's not a choice to be trans.  We were born this way, with a transgender brain.  The scientific evidence supports that.  Our gender identities are established by age 3.  So we've known we were female from a very early age.  Or if we weren't fully aware, we at least knew something was wrong, even as children.

So, why did everyone get married?  Being trans is not a choice, but getting married is indeed a choice.  Getting married, having sex, having children - all as a man - they were all choices that you consciously made.  Why?  Why did you do those things if you felt and knew that it wasn't right?

Sorry, I'm sure I'm offending a lot of people, but I really struggle to understand how so many late transitioners were able to live as husbands and fathers for so many years, if their core gender identity has been that of a female all along.  Please help me understand.

Well the answer to the question "why I got married?" is quite simple: I fell in love with her and sincerely thought that love had cured me.

The next question then would be: so why have children?
The answer: the urge to be normal and just have a family like everyone else. I didn't really realize back then that I was indeed trans. I considered myself a closet cross-dresser.

So what you're saying is that everybody who doesn't fit the norm  shouldn't get married and not have children? I'm sorry but I don't agree with that and I'm sure many others are with me on this.


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Quote from: Mirya on January 19, 2017, 09:57:52 AM
Sorry, I'm sure I'm offending a lot of people, but I really struggle to understand how so many late transitioners were able to live as husbands and fathers for so many years, if their core gender identity has been that of a female all along.  Please help me understand.

Hun, I de-transitioned later than I should have, and yes, I did know there was something about me that would be kryptonite in any hetero woman's mind. So, I always had the "I won't ever get married" and "I don't want kids" thing out there at the start of every relationship. Even so, I did enter into hetero relations with women without disclosing my mis-givings about my assigned gender. I didn't even mention that I knew intrinsically I was sterile, that was also very socially stigmatizing, and avoiding stigma was the name of the game in the 20th Century. For those born into a world of smart phones, internet, Wikipedia, and 24 hour access to everything, there is just no way to explain the isolation and limits of life without such things.

But I also have to say, I hid my proclivities from my future ex mostly because we were a good fit otherwise, and our love was deep and real and profoundly satisfying.

Also because I was lying to myself, too, and figured most people entered into relationships with lies and secrets. I have owned my own deceptions now.

Also, there was no information anywhere that satisfied my questions about my body and self. I am xx intersex and I was mis-gendered and deliberately gas-lighted into believing I was male. Eventually I had developed male alters, so they were also very invested in the delusion I was a man.

When I met my spouse of 18 years, I had just ended a relationship with a woman that knew I was a woman better than I did. We had engaged in role-reversal sex play and it was very, very orgasmic for me, but still, I could not figure out what I was. I knew I wasn't gay, or trans, but there was no info anywhere to help me know myself. So, I tried to be what society expected and fit in and find happiness the best I could, how ever I could.

I was wrong to not disclose my feelings to my ex, but it was also self-preservation. Outing myself without knowing who or what I really was, well, it was social and professional and relational suicide. I was not prepared to pay that price, nor did I ever expect to find my answers.

I hope this helps you gain some insight as to why somebody might hide that which that should not have.

Missy

Quote from: Mirya on January 19, 2017, 09:57:52 AM
So, why did everyone get married?  Being trans is not a choice, but getting married is indeed a choice.  Getting married, having sex, having children - all as a man - they were all choices that you consciously made.  Why?  Why did you do those things if you felt and knew that it wasn't right?
  Please help me understand.

My personal experience and orientation led me to know myself as queer and transgender from an early age.  Part of my challenge was having no mentors, objective information or language for any of that in the 50s and 60s.  What i did learn was the culturally sanctioned disgust directed toward my "perverted" feelings and behaviors.  I learned to hide and then deny those feelings to survive.  From what I have learned that is not an uncommon experience.

I simply fell in love with my life partner and she fell in love with me.  Being bi or pan or queer allows me to feel love, attraction and desire for a person regardless of their gender.  For me it remains about hearts not parts.  My lovers could likely tell I was not a typical man and indeed I have always felt/acted more like a female lover.

Another part of the equation is telling the truth and being honest.  I was fortunate enough to be in love with a person who also felt herself to be Bi.  We explored our feelings and allowed each other significant flexibility in experiencing our orientation.  As a young adult I still could not accept being transgender but as I thought about it, I shared my fears, thoughts and cross dressing with my partner along the way.  She has always known and had her own conclusions and freedom to respond.

I think for many of us this self awareness and acceptance can be a lifelong pursuit and not a fully determined status upon arriving at the age to marry.  I admire and applaud those who do figure it out as children or teens.

Sorry about the derail but once again it seems logic has little impact on how culture and love impact our lives?

Quote from: vicki_sixx on January 19, 2017, 03:02:02 AM
A tad pedantic. Switch 'world' for 'life', then. I was going for a birthing theme anyway.

Sorry, that was not my intent. I meant to differentiate my transition from those who try to change the whole world around them in a practical sense. They change their names, their jobs, drop their friends, perhaps even their family, and move to a new town or even a new country. That was my point.

~Terri

Quote from: Mirya on January 19, 2017, 09:57:52 AM
So, why did everyone get married?  Being trans is not a choice, but getting married is indeed a choice.

This thread has taken an interesting turn. I admire your fortitude for bringing up this issue.
And I can about 1/2 way agree with it. 

But

1. The question is being asked in 2017.  Not so long ago there was no internet. No transition industry. No support groups. No Caitlin Jenner. No Transparent. No National Geographic Cover.  Etc. Most of us were alone and isolated with this and the options were to either try to find comfort in a life with another person while hiding and trying to change and conform OR fight a Quixotic struggle.  Live alone in an wilderness of pain and isolation OR try and do the best we can with what we have and conform to a life that seemed to provide happiness to those around us. Disclaimer: I never married but I came within a whisker once when I got a girl pregnant and she miscarried.  I asked her to marry me.  She was considering it.
2. In my 30s tho it became very, very clear to me that I could never hide this from another person and the thought of sharing it was . . . well, let's just say I had not yet evolved to that point.  So I did wrap that cloak of isolation and loneliness around me.  But I would never fault someone else for trying a different way.
3. The choices we face are difficult and denial is not just a river in Egypt. I can totally get how easy it would be to make an attempt at what we may at one time have seen as our only chance at happiness.
4. Making that choice today with all the choices and support groups and consciousness  and awareness and the way society has evolved is, I think, different. 

Why did I get married?

I fell in love.  I thought I was cured.  I'd had my testosterone shots, the parish priest had counseled me in how to avoid lapsing into sin, and I was all better.  I thought I was safe.

We were in love.  I was in the military, successfully being a manly man doing dangerous manly things.  Marriage sounded right, it sounded good.  Children would be wonderful.

I thought we would have a fairy tale ending.

I was wrong.


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Quote from: JessicaSondelli on January 19, 2017, 10:32:53 AM
So what you're saying is that everybody who doesn't fit the norm  shouldn't get married and not have children? I'm sorry but I don't agree with that and I'm sure many others are with me on this.

That's not what I said at all.  Why are you putting words in my mouth?  I never said those things.  I'm not trying to tell people how they should live their life.  Where did I say that?  Instead, I'm asking why you (and others like you) made the choices that you did.

Thank you, everyone, for all the responses so far.

The question I feel of you asking why did you get married and have kids imo was completely fair. I felt like it was a honest question that was completely relevant to the initial topic.

My wife has known about me since our second date.  Apart from her, this part of my was kept secretive and transition was never even in the vocabulary.  It was a "dream" in my mind, but never thought it possible because I didn't compare to the examples I had access to at that time...."Group 1" woman.  Young/petite usually identified as "gay boys" that ultimately "easily" became straight passable  girls.  That wasn't me and therefore I doubted my internal struggle.  As the years went on, and we had our son (via Gestational surrogate), transition was still not being considered...I honestly thought I just enjoyed crossdressing and had this need to express my internal self from time to time.  Life and its expectations continued until my mental distress discovered that "cross dressing" wasn't what it was, and most of you know how the rest goes. 

Fortunately for us my wife has always had a bisexual tendency and as my inner self needed to come out our love making shifted exclusively to a lesbian relationship...which I felt much more comfortable with, and she preferred.  We went from a 3 to a 12 in the lovemaking scale after we both figured out who we were.  When I told her about my need for transition she did some heavy analyzing of her life and she's since come out as Lesbian....throughout her life I was the only blip of a man (at least on the outside).  Funny how life works.

With regard to the OP... I have lost a lot in my life. Everyday, basic things that people take for granted. Things you don't even think twice about. Because of being myself.

The logical thing is to do that which gives you security, causes the least pain, takes the path of least resistance.

The reality of it is, it doesn't give you anything. Because it's not you. It's an amalgamation of everything the world wants you to be, and see, and do. And there comes a time, when you're alone with your thoughts, and you see yourself... you ask... what exactly do I have? And the answer is nothing. Everything in this world that you've built up, that you hold dear... it's attributed to a person who is... a mirage. People around you, they don't see you.

We keep what we have to insulate ourselves from the cold cruelty of the world. But when those selves are false, everything else becomes false, in time. And you realise something. Sometimes you have to lose the world you think you know, to gain the self you know you know. And when you do... everything you gain after becomes so much more meaningful.

To quote the French novellist, Antoine de Saint-Exupery: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."

Quote from: Mirya on January 19, 2017, 01:05:23 PM
That's not what I said at all.  Why are you putting words in my mouth?  I never said those things.  I'm not trying to tell people how they should live their life.  Where did I say that?  Instead, I'm asking why you (and others like you) made the choices that you did.

Thank you, everyone, for all the responses so far.

Mirya,

ok, this thread is taking a turn to the worse... Let's not get there and instead enjoy the last day before DoomsDay tomorrow..

Before we do that, let me try to get things straight by quoting your exact words:
"Why?  Why did you do those things if you felt and knew that it wasn't right?"

My answer is still the same and back then it just felt right - that was 20 years ago. it was a totally different time and even thinking about the possibility to transition was so alien to me plus as I said, I was in love plus just started my career in the financial industry.

So what you are trying to say is because I had the urge to be more feminine and wear feminine outfits in private I should not marry the woman I love? Did I get that right?

This is actually pretty much how my wife is thinking. She has the opinion that trans people should not be allowed to have children. Do you agree with that statement?

Going to lock for review.