I couldn't really think of an eloquent subject line...

I think what may be causing me so much grief these days is the fact that there is some weirdness going on with my current boyfriend. He knows that I'm transmasculine, and made clear in the beginning that he doesn't care how I identify so long as I'm with him, because he just likes me as a person. We even enjoy shopping for clothes together, and he thinks I look hot in a suit. Because we're both masculine-identified, there are other small things we have in common as well.

However, I recently learned that he basically still only views me as a woman. I asked because I suspected this. He felt guilty about admitting it, but it still stands that that's how he views me, and he definitely treats/thinks of men and women differently. He's not even attracted to men.

To complicate matters, I'm somewhat genderfluid and find myself feeling really feminine around him, so I worry that this is coming out of me when I'm with him and causing him to feel the way he does.

I just want him to love both sides of me, not only the feminine side. I'm really conflicted by the fact that he tells me he loves me for me, but then treats me like men treat women. A part of me is feeling ignored and I'm not sure what to do.

I had a dream recently in which I introduced myself to an MC as a genderqueer person with ze/hir pronouns, and he went, "Ok, great! I totally support your gender identity!" and then proceeded to introduce me to a group as "she" "her" "this cool girl I know" etc. This is kind of how it feels to be with my boyfriend. It's more like feeling ignored with a hint of betrayal or deceit.

I'm in my 30's and he's been a dear friend of mine since before we began dating, so any advice to just dump him for another person wouldn't be helpful. I would like to address the problem somehow, but am not sure how to start. Do you have any suggestions? I'm not sure if I should talk to him, or just try to behave differently, but I hate that feeling of having to prove that I'm "trans enough" even to my own boyfriend.

I'll start with - I have no idea how to help you.  This may be a case of you need to help yourself.  Have you talked to a therapist?

I would consider things like:
Does he make you happy?
Do you make him happy?
Do you feel good with him?
Do you get "dysphoria" around him?  (Everyone experiences that differently.)
Do you see yourself with him in 10 years (and vice versa)?
When you think of him do you think "good" or "bad" thoughts?
Is he nice to you and are you nice to him?

Ask yourself - does it really matter to me how he see's me?  Can you survive being Genderfluid or are you closer to the binary side.

Good luck and please keeps us updated.  You might help others with a similar challenge.

Yes, I think the succinct way to describe this is that I feel dysphoric around him.

The other thing is, I don't know if it matters how he sees me. Should it matter? I tell myself it shouldn't because we are all just people with our own personal issues, and that there are more important aspects of the relationship to consider. Most of those aspects are looking pretty good (and no relationship is perfect). But then the feeling of dysphoria keeps eating at me, and my whole identity throughout my life, not just when I'm around him, seems to be suffering.

It's similar to issues like, if there's a lesbian couple and one of them transitions to male, can the other stay and still identify as a lesbian? Or if there's a straight married couple and the husband is MTF, what's the wife to do if she doesn't feel right being married to a woman? I'm dating a straight guy who only sees me as a woman, who has told me he doesn't think we could continue the relationship if I masculinized my body with HRT. (Even though I'm genderqueer, I'm considering both HRT and top surgery.)

How much should identity and the corresponding label matter if you truly love somebody and are committed to ironing out issues with each other?

I don't want someone to solve it for me, I'm just looking for advice from wiser people who have been there, done that. I appreciate your reply, Denise.

I have trouble with the whole concept of "identifying" as one thing or another.  It is of limited usefulness, and it seems to cause a lot of problems.

My wife and I are in the situation of one of the examples you gave.  We were a heterosexual couple, and I am transitioning.  What makes it work is that is that neither of is is heavily invested in an identity.  We didn't "identify" as heterosexual, it was just a description.  Similarly, we aren't going to "identify" as a lesbian couple.  There's just her and me.

As an identity, "lesbian" is for us a source of humour.  We get giggles out of telling people that she is going from straight to lesbian through no choice of her own.  That's all it means to us.

No doubt we will be perceived as lesbian and will be welcomed in groups where would might not have before, as a result of that perceived identity, but that only means something to us if they are nice people we want to meet. 

Right now, I identify as transgender.  It is a useful identity at the moment, because if gives me access to support and advice that I would not have otherwise, that makes my transition easier.  But I anticipate leaving that identity behind once my transition is complete and going back to being just me.

So, what I am saying is that identity is a made up concept that has no real significance.  A couple is two individuals and how they relate to one another.  If those two people are cool with how their relationship is working out and changing, identities are just labels for other people to play with.

So you want him to refer to you as a man in public? As his boyfriend to other people?

Ask him if he would do that and if he could think of you as a man. Go from there.

In my experience this is where you'll find out exactly what his sexuality is and how flexible or inflexible it is.

I'm married to a straight woman so most times I identify as male,when I dress and we go out we go as friends hand holding is done in private. It doesn't bother me that I can crossdress and fit into both worlds and pass barely.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm reflecting on it more, and here is what I'm thinking.

Identity is very important to me, and always has been, even before I knew I was transgender. I really like to express who I am and want others to know me deeply, and also love the diversity of other individuals. I don't think anybody fits a label 100% and they should be fun to play around with, but labels do give you the opportunity to connect with other very specific people. In my experience, they are especially important if you're part of a minority group, or a group whose visibility is constantly being erased.

I do actually have two therapists that I haven't been able to see for two months due to scheduling conflicts, but I finally saw one yesterday. She said, "How he views you doesn't matter, because you can't change that. But your feelings matter."

So I guess I don't really care how he views me--I'm not even the type to pick my own pronouns and demand that others use them--but a part of me is feeling ignored. And that's upsetting because I initially went into this thinking that he accepted both parts of me, because he told me that he did.

Just for quick clarification, I'm an androgyne for now, although I started out 3 years ago thinking I was FTM. I think of myself as two people, a woman and a man, sharing one body. Because the woman is easily seen, I try to give the man some time "out" or in control. I've found that I'm overall happier when I do this on a consistent basis. I just try not to fall into the trap of suppressing the woman, because I don't think it should be shameful for a man or an androgyne to be feminine sometimes.

Cheryl said, "It doesn't bother me that I can crossdress and fit into both worlds and pass barely." It  greatly bothers me that I can't pass as male or be taken seriously as a masculine person. Even to the one person who I thought knew me intimately, I'm just a cute girl playing around with gender, not a man with a female body trying to make the best of that situation.

Working against me is the fact that I don't mind female-gendered words like "girlfriend" being used to describe me. I don't think I feel comfortable with the word "boyfriend."

Maybe gender identity shouldn't matter, but it's intricately tied to how I'm feeling. I've considered breaking my own ism, and telling people to use a certain set of gender-neutral pronouns with me. I'm beginning to wonder if he, like most people (and even like me a long time ago), doesn't really have a space in his head that includes gender-neutral people. To him, they're either a woman or a man...and the men have to be "real men" or ultra masculine, otherwise they're worthy of a punch in the face.

I will try changing pronouns and talking to him about all of these thoughts, but I'm still open to new advice in the mean time. Thanks for listening.

Your frustrations are understandable and shared from another viewpoint.  I have had a long term relationship with the gay community and love my boyfriends.  Plenty of the guys called me girl even before my second coming out as trans and that is not uncommon, as you likely know.

I did feel an acute sense of loss with the guys as they suggested betrayal, became cooler and of course no more invitations to the gay mens potluck....not unexpected oc   Cis women warmed up but many of the lesbian women will also never see me as one of the tribe.

It's sure not easy to just be seen and accepted for who we are some days and the non binary identity remains an obstacle for some, sigh.  I was at our LGBTQ support group last night and soon tired of the macho sizing and competitive nature so many straight and gay men engage in.  No advice but we seem to be less polarized among the younger folks?

You've identified several problems that trans* people, and especially genderfluid people have, the "neither one thing nor the other" issue. I understand, as I am non-binary myself. And while I was born with male equipment, I have feminine attributes, as well... enough that I am not and never have been considered as a he-man kind of guy... but no one thinks of me as a female, either. There is no way I could pass as female at this time. I would be be labeled "man in a dress" right off.

That said, what I've learned is that it takes extra work and effort to pull off a convincing look as the opposite gender body. Cis-women can look be entirely casual, even disheveled, and no one thinks they are other than female (maybe not attractive, but still female). And the same for a cis-guy.

That means that people like us have to take extra measures to express that side that our bodies weren't born into.

OR we have to become okay with being "reminiscent of" the gender we are trying to express. Sort of like a tribute band. :-) That's what "tom-boys" do all the time. Some are so successful, that they become completely accepted as one of the guys (even when that wasn't their goal).

The solution to that for me, so far, is to incorporate elements of both into my life, and clothing, and mannerisms, so that when I want to, I can just push it a little further either way. As I keep pushing, I get closer to what I am trying to express and people become used to it so they just accept it.

And that leads me into another aspect you raised. If you don't feel comfortable with being his "boyfriend", then there is no way he will be.

None of us wake up completely at ease with these things. Our culture has ingrained it all too deeply within us. We have to push our boundaries, just a little, in order to expand them. We can't do it suddenly, we have to do it gradually.

You might try encouraging him to do serious "role-play" with you. One of those where he can do this over and over, treating you as a guy-friend. And you do your side of the role-play just as seriously. You both know it is role-play and "make-believe"... and that's okay. Over time, what this does is expand both your boundaries and help you get comfortable with acting this way with each other. Before you know it, neither of you will see it as role-play but as your normal interaction.

You might even set up "code words" or alternate names to signal you want to slip into that role-play. It might look like this:
Him: Hi, sweetie, you're looking foxy today.
You: Actually, I'm feeling more Ralph today.
Him: Oh. Hey, Ralph. (fist bump) How you doin' today, buddy?
You: Like a boss.

And, of course, when you are feeling the feminine side, you can just do that side.

The main thing is that these things take time and happen gradually.

Hugs,
Jackie

Thank you both. Hey, role play is a great idea! I'll ask him how he feels about it.

I brought up the fact that I was thinking of using new pronouns, and he was very supportive of that (ze/hir) so that was cool.

I was able to reconcile this with myself, so I thought I would come back and share.

I realized it was not just my gender identity at stake. It's also his!

Nobody even had to say anything...just the way I described him and how he reacts to other men clued me in. He just seems to have very strict ideas about what a man is. I don't think he lives up to his own ideals...or actually, maybe he does, and fights to keep it that way by judging other men. And since he has such a strict line defining what a man is, I think he also just defaults to "not man = woman" even after telling me that I can do whatever feels best to me.

A couple of FTM memes helped me come to this conclusion, but I don't remember what they said anymore. I just remember my first thought being, "That's just like my non-trans boyfriend!" to each haha. Funny and sad how even cis people struggle with feeling not-their-gender enough. Maybe they should listen to us when we tell them society's gender boxes are too strict.

I haven't done anything too differently yet, but realizing that this is not just about me and that both of our ideas about gender are intertwining awkwardly takes a lot of performance pressure off of me.

I also haven't seen him with his friends yet, but a story he told me about one of them made me think he might just have a domineering personality when dealing with others, and perhaps he's not actually intending to treat me like a helpless, precious princess. But even if I am his submissive damsel, that's not something I can control anyway, so I'll just be myself and reconsider the relationship if it becomes too overbearing/dysphoria-inducing.

Quote from: Gothic Dandy on February 23, 2017, 02:35:04 AM
I realized it was not just my gender identity at stake. It's also his!

Yes. How he sees himself as a result will be a part of it.

QuoteNobody even had to say anything...just the way I described him and how he reacts to other men clued me in. He just seems to have very strict ideas about what a man is. I don't think he lives up to his own ideals...or actually, maybe he does, and fights to keep it that way by judging other men. And since he has such a strict line defining what a man is, I think he also just defaults to "not man = woman" even after telling me that I can do whatever feels best to me.

This sounds familiar to me. If you're dealing with someone who it's difficult to have conversations with about the subject and are going only on their reactions (especially if they are someone who changes their mind a lot, even after telling you one thing they they might easily do another) then you'll probably save yourself a lot of time/angst by just doing what you have to do and seeing how it works out when you do. He might actually adjust to your level of expression, but simply be resisting the ideas you've presented verbally. Sometimes ideas scare people more than the reality.

I still think that you need to talk to him very seriously about your identity. I know it's your life and your choice but your feelings matter. It's terribly hard to do this when a person is very dear to you, but sometimes you have to be harsh. You've got to put yourself above him for once. I understand that his identity is at stake, but no one is touching it either, besides his own fear. My androgynous partner is attracted to women, but still respects my identity and they're only seeing a guy. That's it. It doesn't change their sexuality, it just adds a "I'm dating a guy" in my partner's case. Same for your boyfriend. Tell him how you feel about everything and just have a serious talk.