Hello all!

I am new here and I hope this is the right place to be! I am seeking to start slowly into a FFS. I am mainly concerned about getting a rhinoplasty, otoplasty (with ear lobule reduction) and brow bossing removal. I would not think that my brow ridge is significantly prominent but speaking to local surgeon he suggested that if I wanted to truly feminize my face then I should seek a surgeon who can soften the brow ridge projection.

I was told Doctor Zukowski was my best bet for a feminized rhinoplasty given that he is one of the better surgeons who makes feminized noses consistently and others reviews. What truly stands out to me is that I have heard from 3 users that Doctor Zukowski tends to be more aggressive with his work thus he strives to achieve a barbie-doll look to most of his patients. In which is what I exactly want.

My questions are just as simple as below.

1. I know Doctor Zukowski does better work with soft-tissue work. From what I read is that he also does good forehead work which he only does endoscopic but only for minimal work. Or is this false? I know a lot of people rave about Dr. Bart, Ousterhout, and others for forehead work.

2. Is it really important to do both Forehead Type (3) reconstruction or Brow Ridge Reconstruction with Rhinoplasty at the same time? Or could I do a nose job with my ears and then come back 1.5 years later to another surgeon to do a revision of my nose and do my forehead contouring?

Beyond this I hope I will be satisfied with Dr. Zukowski. I am rested on him as he was kind on the e-mails before even having my phone consultation, and that from a lot of reviews he seems to be the only surgeon who strives to make people like barbies.

I hope to get a lot of help from you all!

Thank you soo much!

Quote from: icy on February 09, 2017, 02:38:11 AM1. I know Doctor Zukowski does better work with soft-tissue work. From what I read is that he also does good forehead work which he only does endoscopic but only for minimal work. Or is this false? I know a lot of people rave about Dr. Bart, Ousterhout, and others for forehead work.

I think Dr Z has had some phenomenal results with Type I foreheads.  With Type III, he will fill in the gap with bone paste, and I think that limits how much can be accomplished; sometimes it results in more forward projection than I think is optimal.  You won't know what type of forehead you have without seeing X-Rays or certain CT scans -- forehead "type" is determined by the internal thickness of the bone.

Quote2. Is it really important to do both Forehead Type (3) reconstruction or Brow Ridge Reconstruction with Rhinoplasty at the same time? Or could I do a nose job with my ears and then come back 1.5 years later to another surgeon to do a revision of my nose and do my forehead contouring?

You'll get the best results doing both at the same time.  Doing the nose first will make your existing forehead look more prominent for the duration, and rhinoplasty revisions can compromise the integrity of your nose.  Do the ears separately if you want to break things up.

That's my two cents' worth. 

Icy,

I have not done research to be able to answer you. We have a lot of members though. This is the correct category and it is usually pretty active.

I also want to share some links with you. They are mostly welcome information and the rules that govern the site. If you have not had a chance to look through them, please take a moment to:

• Site Terms of Service and rules to live by
  
• Standard Terms and Definitions
  
• Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar)
  
• Reputation rules
  
• News posting & quoting guidelines
  
• Photo, avatars, and signature images policy
  

Once again, welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and join in.

With warmth,

Joanna

Sophia Sage,

Thank you very much for your post. I was told "filling in the gap with bone paste" was not such a good idea for some reasons. I couldn't recall but there were some long-term complications with that from what I was told? So it seems bone paste method isn't the way to go. The challenge really is finding someone who can perfect the nose while doing my brow ridge. In terms about X-Ray or CT Scans which one image is best in order to assess this? To understand what kind of thickness I have of the forehead bone. I assume I can go to my General Practitioner and tell them I want a X-ray of my skull just because?

I hope to get more opinions.

Thank you!

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 09, 2017, 11:01:22 AM
I think Dr Z has had some phenomenal results with Type I foreheads.  With Type III, he will fill in the gap with bone paste, and I think that limits how much can be accomplished; sometimes it results in more forward projection than I think is optimal.  You won't know what type of forehead you have without seeing X-Rays or certain CT scans -- forehead "type" is determined by the internal thickness of the bone.

You'll get the best results doing both at the same time.  Doing the nose first will make your existing forehead look more prominent for the duration, and rhinoplasty revisions can compromise the integrity of your nose.  Do the ears separately if you want to break things up.

That's my two cents' worth. 

If you truly want a Barbie like look, you need a surgeon that can aggresively setback your forhead, glabella, nasion region while also giving you a round curved volumous forehead and a nose that is very petite and upturned.

Link below shows a exaggerated version of that look.

https://ashgutz.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/cleo-de-nile-blank-face/

So basically, a surgeon that can do 1) type 3 reconstruction(might also require use of implant/bone paste for middle/upper forehead) and 2) thin petite upturned nose.

Ypsf09,

Thank you very much for your post. I appreciate you taking time to give me some advice on what to know and say to a surgeon about what I am seeking. When you say setback your forehead is there a specific type of procedure for this or the usual Type 3 reconstruction. Why would you suggest implant/bone-poste for middle/upper forehead?

You have given me a lot to think about I appreciate it soo much

What you described about the forehead and petite upturned nose, is exactly what i want.

How are you doing?

Quote from: Ypsf09 on February 09, 2017, 05:18:18 PM
If you truly want a Barbie like look, you need a surgeon that can aggresively setback your forhead, glabella, nasion region while also giving you a round curved volumous forehead and a nose that is very petite and upturned.

Link below shows a exaggerated version of that look.

https://ashgutz.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/cleo-de-nile-blank-face/

So basically, a surgeon that can do 1) type 3 reconstruction(might also require use of implant/bone paste for middle/upper forehead) and 2) thin petite upturned nose.

Dr Zukowski doesn't use bone paste.  I asked him about it during my consultation with him, and he had a negative opinion of it.  He instead uses fat grafting.

I know that Dr Z has a reputation for being aggressive and producing a barbie-doll look, but that's not always the case.  I had FFS with him last year, and I ended up with a very natural look (which is what I wanted).  I do think it's important to clearly communicate with him to express exactly what you want though.  And really, that goes with any FFS surgeon.  But yes, if you want a barbie-doll look, Dr Z can do that for you too.    I know some 'Z-girls' who look like that, and they're happy - it's what they wanted.

Icy,

You are welcome. In fact I am in the same boat as you in finding the surgeon that can give me a hyper feminine look(I already had type 3 forehead reconstruction, rhinoplasty and genioplasty)


Yes I was referring to a type 3 construction for forehead setback. But this setback using type 3 reconstruction and maybe some burring  too(for supra orbital ridge) would only be for the lower part of the forehead.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Khi98ityDMs/UaN5ScuYfcI/AAAAAAAAJmM/_tQAij0HMvE/s1600/JessicaRabbitMaskCompare.jpg

Above pic shows Jessica rabbits face profile, note how her nasion region( nose bridge between eyes) and lower forehead Region is recessed while her mid/upper forehead comes out.

Aggresive type 3 reconstruction and rhinoplAsty would give you that recessed nasion and lower forehead. Now to take things to the next level and give that doll look, your mid/upper forehead would also need augmentation using fat/bone paste/implant. If you already have a prominent Mid/upper forehead this additional step would be not required.

Also note the real human girl in the pic that's posing jessica rabbit looks very different. Although her nasion and lower forehead is kinda like Jessica rabbit her mid/upper forehead is recessed/sloping which makes her look not as feminine as the real jessica.

Hey Girly!

I appreciate your post. I have seen some of your post as you went to Doctor Z! I am waiting until I have a few post under my belt here so I can be able to private message you girls personally. Good to know, I thought he did use bone-paste unless I read wrong? I heard there were some bad long-term complications about that bone-paste. I am still unsure why Doctor Z isn't favored by many girls who want forehead work. I understand he is best at soft-tissue look. However I think with some pics and some X-rays I can assess my forehead even better. I think my forehead is perfectly fine but I could soften my brow ridge a bit. Otherwise I don't think I would need much change to my forehead.

Glad to know that you said his reputed for his aggressive work that's exactly what I want to hear, and congrats on your FFS I wish I could see your pics.

Once again thank you for confirming this for me

any advice about my forehead work and can Doctor Z do otoplasty with ear lobule reduction? or making the ear smaller.

Thank you

Quote from: Mirya on February 09, 2017, 06:26:50 PM
Dr Zukowski doesn't use bone paste.  I asked him about it during my consultation with him, and he had a negative opinion of it.  He instead uses fat grafting.

I know that Dr Z has a reputation for being aggressive and producing a barbie-doll look, but that's not always the case.  I had FFS with him last year, and I ended up with a very natural look (which is what I wanted).  I do think it's important to clearly communicate with him to express exactly what you want though.  And really, that goes with any FFS surgeon.  But yes, if you want a barbie-doll look, Dr Z can do that for you too.    I know some 'Z-girls' who look like that, and they're happy - it's what they wanted.

Thank you for your post I will get back to you later tonight as I want to give you a detailed response. Could you message me? I don't think I can however. I appreciate that we are on the same boat. How did your Forehead Type-3 Recon + Rhinoplasty + Genioplasty go? How recent was it and did you like the work. I assume thats why you want a revision?

What doctors are you looking at and what look do you want?

I hope to stay in touch

Quote from: Ypsf09 on February 09, 2017, 07:10:48 PM
Icy,

You are welcome. In fact I am in the same boat as you in finding the surgeon that can give me a hyper feminine look(I already had type 3 forehead reconstruction, rhinoplasty and genioplasty)


Yes I was referring to a type 3 construction for forehead setback. But this setback using type 3 reconstruction and maybe some burring  too(for supra orbital ridge) would only be for the lower part of the forehead.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Khi98ityDMs/UaN5ScuYfcI/AAAAAAAAJmM/_tQAij0HMvE/s1600/JessicaRabbitMaskCompare.jpg

Above pic shows Jessica rabbits face profile, note how her nasion region( nose bridge between eyes) and lower forehead Region is recessed while her mid/upper forehead comes out.

Aggresive type 3 reconstruction and rhinoplAsty would give you that recessed nasion and lower forehead. Now to take things to the next level and give that doll look, your mid/upper forehead would also need augmentation using fat/bone paste/implant. If you already have a prominent Mid/upper forehead this additional step would be not required.

Also note the real human girl in the pic that's posing jessica rabbit looks very different. Although her nasion and lower forehead is kinda like Jessica rabbit her mid/upper forehead is recessed/sloping which makes her look not as feminine as the real jessica.

Quote from: icy on February 09, 2017, 02:56:04 PMIn terms about X-Ray or CT Scans which one image is best in order to assess this? To understand what kind of thickness I have of the forehead bone. I assume I can go to my General Practitioner and tell them I want a X-ray of my skull just because?

I had X-rays back in the day, that was sufficient, but some CT scans (that show the actual thickness of the bone) will do the job as well.  I don't know if Dr Z requests them or not, certainly the surgeons that do Type III will; you usually need a prescription to get the scans done.  Your GP might write them up for you, not "just because" but after explaining you're looking to have work done. 

Whether burring the orbits and brow ridge for you will work depends on the bone thickness and the sinus cavity behind the bone.  If the bone is very thin, I think you're better off going with a surgeon who does Type III.  If the bone is thick, it could be significantly reduced through Dr Z's techniques.

According to Dr O's book on the subject, about 85% of the people he saw had Type III foreheads. 

I'm on my mobile now so I will do my best to respond without typos so if I'm not mistaken if I need a lot of work done on my forehead then doctor Z is the person to consult. However as you said if my forehead doesn't need much work then I should see a specialist who reconstructs foreheads. " If the bone is thick, it could be significantly reduced through Dr Z's techniques. "

I could say I don't have a dominant brow ridge just need to soften up. However I do want to upload a pic of the nose I want. I am forever grateful to have a lot of you agreeing on doctor Zukowski being perfect to be aggressive on making my nose like a Barbie doll.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 09, 2017, 07:44:14 PM
I had X-rays back in the day, that was sufficient, but some CT scans (that show the actual thickness of the bone) will do the job as well.  I don't know if Dr Z requests them or not, certainly the surgeons that do Type III will; you usually need a prescription to get the scans done.  Your GP might write them up for you, not "just because" but after explaining you're looking to have work done. 

Whether burring the orbits and brow ridge for you will work depends on the bone thickness and the sinus cavity behind the bone.  If the bone is very thin, I think you're better off going with a surgeon who does Type III.  If the bone is thick, it could be significantly reduced through Dr Z's techniques.

According to Dr O's book on the subject, about 85% of the people he saw had Type III foreheads.

Quote from: icy on February 09, 2017, 09:54:07 PMI'm on my mobile now so I will do my best to respond without typos so if I'm not mistaken if I need a lot of work done on my forehead then doctor Z is the person to consult. However as you said if my forehead doesn't need much work then I should see a specialist who reconstructs foreheads. " If the bone is thick, it could be significantly reduced through Dr Z's techniques. "

I could say I don't have a dominant brow ridge just need to soften up.

Not quite.

The thickness of the bone has nothing to do with the amount of projection you have with your brow ridge.  It's not something that can be determined without looking "inside" via an X-ray or CT scan.  It doesn't matter if you need "a lot" of work or only some subtle "softening" -- if the bone is thin then you're better off with a Type III surgeon, because you can't take much if anything off of thin bone, regardless of how much or little it projects.  On the other hand, if the bone is thick, Z would be a good choice for subtle softening or extensive revision. 

Most plastic surgeons can give you that nose, btw.  Some may argue, however, that it's not the best aesthetic for your face, depending on other factors, primarily the length of your midface, as most women with long faces (and hence pretty long noses) don't have Barbie-swoop noses; such swooping noses tends to look "unnatural" in such a context.

But it's your nose, your face; in the end, I think you should ultimately do whatever best serves your needs and intentions. 

Sophia Sage,

Thank you for clarifying that. I am a noobie when it comes to all of this. I am forever grateful to have you and the amazing members here to help me out. It is very hard to know and recognize which surgeon is best for what as everyone has their own opinion. However I am happy to hear from you that you mentioned that Doctor Z is great for the forehead contouring if the bone is thick. I do not know why people always talk bad about him for forehead work and they always say go to another surgeon as he isn't suitable for bone-work. Ideally if I can squash out my rhinoplastic and forehead contouring (brow ridge) under one operation than that is great. I am just trying to feel comfortable with everyone's opinion here as from "->-bleeped-<-" and some research some do not like him not sure why but maybe because he tends to be aggressive and give everyone a super-feminized barbie look. Well for some like myself, I like it.

I will go ahead and get a X-ray or CT scan and ask my general pracitioner that I need it, as a cosmetic surgeon is requesting it. So I can e-mail it to surgeons. The obvious reasons why I am leaning towards Doctor Z is because he is here in USA and also of kind of work I am seeking as he gives that barbie look.

I tried to consult with many surgeons about my nose and they do not like that nose so that is why I am possibly going to stick with Doctor Z.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 10, 2017, 12:02:08 AM
Not quite.

The thickness of the bone has nothing to do with the amount of projection you have with your brow ridge.  It's not something that can be determined without looking "inside" via an X-ray or CT scan.  It doesn't matter if you need "a lot" of work or only some subtle "softening" -- if the bone is thin then you're better off with a Type III surgeon, because you can't take much if anything off of thin bone, regardless of how much or little it projects.  On the other hand, if the bone is thick, Z would be a good choice for subtle softening or extensive revision. 

Most plastic surgeons can give you that nose, btw.  Some may argue, however, that it's not the best aesthetic for your face, depending on other factors, primarily the length of your midface, as most women with long faces (and hence pretty long noses) don't have Barbie-swoop noses; such swooping noses tends to look "unnatural" in such a context.

But it's your nose, your face; in the end, I think you should ultimately do whatever best serves your needs and intentions.

Quote from: icy on February 10, 2017, 01:27:06 AM
I am just trying to feel comfortable with everyone's opinion here as from "->-bleeped-<-" and some research some do not like him not sure why but maybe because he tends to be aggressive and give everyone a super-feminized barbie look. Well for some like myself, I like it.

I get the impression that the ->-bleeped-<- crowd (which skews toward a younger demographic) favors Dr Spiegel.  You have famous YouTubers like Stef Sanjati and Gigi Gorgeous who posted videos about their FFS experiences with Spiegel.  I'm sure that's had a very positive effect on Dr Spiegel's reputation.

People seem to have forgotten that Dr Zukowski has some famous FFS patients too.  Such as Michelle Hendley.  I guess it was about 5 years ago, so people already forgot that he did her FFS.    But if you look at her now, she looks stunningly beautiful without looking fake.  I don't know why people keep equating 'aggressive' with 'plastic' or 'fake'.  Michelle looks undeniably feminine and beautiful but also quite natural.

Mirya, are you on the chat currently?

I added you to my ' buddies list ' here however I think I am still new here to private-message so I must wait.

Thank you for your response, I know you went with Dr. Z for your work

You could be right about that! I mean they all are good, it seems you have to pick someone with the reviews, looks, and such that you want.

Quote from: Mirya on February 10, 2017, 02:13:41 AM
I get the impression that the ->-bleeped-<- crowd (which skews toward a younger demographic) favors Dr Spiegel.  You have famous YouTubers like Stef Sanjati and Gigi Gorgeous who posted videos about their FFS experiences with Spiegel.  I'm sure that's had a very positive effect on Dr Spiegel's reputation.

People seem to have forgotten that Dr Zukowski has some famous FFS patients too.  Such as Michelle Hendley.  I guess it was about 5 years ago, so people already forgot that he did her FFS.    But if you look at her now, she looks stunningly beautiful without looking fake.  I don't know why people keep equating 'aggressive' with 'plastic' or 'fake'.  Michelle looks undeniably feminine and beautiful but also quite natural.

Icy,

If you glance through the links I sent, one of them talks about avatars and sending pms. You can receive them but you can't reply till you hit 15 quality posts.

Glad to see you are getting some good interaction.

warmly,

Joanna

Quote from: icy on February 10, 2017, 01:27:06 AMI tried to consult with many surgeons about my nose and they do not like that nose so that is why I am possibly going to stick with Doctor Z.

There's one thing I don't like about that nose -- it's flatly broad at the bridge.  The curvature is lovely, but most noses get narrower at the bridge instead of wider.  That flat wideness is actually an aesthetic I've seen in a lot of Dr O noses, and I think it just looks kind of funny, unnatural.

Speaking of Doctor O, my impression is that Deschamps-Braly, who took over Dr O's practice in San Francisco, can be every bit as "aggressive" as Dr Z.  In fact, I think most facial surgeons can and will be aggressive... if that's what the patient wants (and, likewise, they can go more conservative if that's what the patient wants).  Deschamps-Braly, however, can do Type III foreheads.

So in terms of choosing doctors for their aesthetics, I'd make that more of a priority only if you're not precisely clear on the aesthetics you're looking for in the first place. 

By the same token, though, being precisely clear on your aesthetics doesn't mean your sense of aesthetics is actually good -- meaning, you might not actually like the gestalt effect of certain individual choices once they're in place.  One might have a "be aggressive as possible" approach in mind, but that doesn't necessarily mean that, say, a maximal scalp advancement is going to look good on you based on your facial proportions.  And there are some areas where there are limits to how far you can go -- like, with jaw recontouring, you might not be able to go as far as you want because of where the mental nerve (that innervates chin) lies, as it travels through a "mandibular canal" that shouldn't be breached.  This, in turn, might need to inform other aesthetic choices so that the gestalt of your face "makes sense." In my opinion, proportions and balance matter a lot more than we tend to realize at first glance. 

Thank you very much. I am really glad to be apart of this great forum!

Quote from: Joanna50 on February 10, 2017, 11:25:38 AM
Icy,

If you glance through the links I sent, one of them talks about avatars and sending pms. You can receive them but you can't reply till you hit 15 quality posts.

Glad to see you are getting some good interaction.

warmly,

Joanna

Sophia Sage,

Hello darling!

Thank you for your time and detailed response. As you may not know I am ethnic and I tend to have a big "honker" on my nose and it completely devastates me as it does not appeal to my look. I actually like that nose in fact I can show another nose that I will say that is acceptable. I understand that previous picture is a bit too much but that would be my dream nose otherwise a nose like this.




As you can see it is very small and natural. Most US surgeons do terrible jobs on noses. In fact most FFS surgeons I have seen, have not impressed me with their noses.

You are right. Any surgeon can be aggressive depending on what the client needs and we can't always just every person and every picture we saw, in order to judge the surgeons work. I could consider Dr. Deschamps-Braly. In fact I think I have heard more positive than negative about him than any other surgeon. The only issue is, is that I am not able to see his kind of owrk to be able to make a judgement.

My question currently is would it make any difference if I broke down my FFS piece-by-piece so for example if I could do say my rhinoplasty first, then do my forehead with jaw/cheek recontouring. I know everyone says "No do it all at once" however it seems every surgeon has a specialty and skill for one thing. Obviously forehead/jaw/chin I'd need a craniofacial surgeon, and a nosejob i would need a plastic-surgeon. However this may sound terribly bad to say but would it make a difference to do all my FFS all at once in terms of seeking ultimate beauty outcomes? Or rather doing my surgery piece-by-piece will not have any delay in healing or harm my beauty outcomes? I hope this makes sense.

Thank you gals!

Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 10, 2017, 11:54:39 AM
There's one thing I don't like about that nose -- it's flatly broad at the bridge.  The curvature is lovely, but most noses get narrower at the bridge instead of wider.  That flat wideness is actually an aesthetic I've seen in a lot of Dr O noses, and I think it just looks kind of funny, unnatural.

Speaking of Doctor O, my impression is that Deschamps-Braly, who took over Dr O's practice in San Francisco, can be every bit as "aggressive" as Dr Z.  In fact, I think most facial surgeons can and will be aggressive... if that's what the patient wants (and, likewise, they can go more conservative if that's what the patient wants).  Deschamps-Braly, however, can do Type III foreheads.

So in terms of choosing doctors for their aesthetics, I'd make that more of a priority only if you're not precisely clear on the aesthetics you're looking for in the first place. 

By the same token, though, being precisely clear on your aesthetics doesn't mean your sense of aesthetics is actually good -- meaning, you might not actually like the gestalt effect of certain individual choices once they're in place.  One might have a "be aggressive as possible" approach in mind, but that doesn't necessarily mean that, say, a maximal scalp advancement is going to look good on you based on your facial proportions.  And there are some areas where there are limits to how far you can go -- like, with jaw recontouring, you might not be able to go as far as you want because of where the mental nerve (that innervates chin) lies, as it travels through a "mandibular canal" that shouldn't be breached.  This, in turn, might need to inform other aesthetic choices so that the gestalt of your face "makes sense." In my opinion, proportions and balance matter a lot more than we tend to realize at first glance.