Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude...

Meh.  That kind of intense negative focus on one's past doesn't really help that much either.  I'd rather not consider myself a 20 year liar.  Especially since at my core I'm still the same person.  And enough of that got through growing up, that I think it's a mischaracterization to label myself a liar because of it.

Plus I mean.  It's no big deal.  Everyone has different backgrounds.  Invalidating mine to make someone else feel more comfortable isn't at all healthy.  If people want to really be close to me, they are going to have to accept that I grew up living one gender, and now live another.  I have valuable experiences because of that, and a good friend is going to want to hear those experiences, and hearing them won't invalidate how they see me now.

 

Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude... not 'not telling people that your trans'
R >

yes that is true  one the frist part rachel . but on the seconed part um,mmm why do you need to tell

people that you are trans . if they dont pick up on or have a clue  umm then  no harms or fauls.

but if for some reason they do  find this out by some chance . then yea it could be said that you lied . but

if they have not then found out then well um why worry about it

Posted on: January 29, 2008, 07:10:15 PM

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Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation.  What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all.  Does that mean I have to transition back or something?

I don't like being seen as someone with a disability.  I don't want to be seen as a disorder either.  I feel like both of those are sort of victim mentality's and shirk a lot of responsibility.  "I can't help it, it's just the way I was born, poor me" doesn't sit well with me.

Why does there need to be an excuse and explanation at all?  Why can't I just own my choices in life and be afforded the respect to be judged on my own terms?  Who cares WHY I identify as a woman.  I am one so let's move forward

Anyone who views SRS as living with a mutaliation, probably doesn't like tatoos or piercings either.  Give me a break.  It's 2008.  Time to evolve our understanding of identity.

i have to agree with you sara and tekla 

Just a thought. Could we please avoid the eighth or so 'out/stealth' 'tell/don't' thread in the past seven days?

Can we just stick to justifying how and why we are who we are. Not how we cope with that, please?

Nichole

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation.  What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all.  Does that mean I have to transition back or something?

I don't like being seen as someone with a disability.  I don't want to be seen as a disorder either.  I feel like both of those are sort of victim mentality's and shirk a lot of responsibility.  "I can't help it, it's just the way I was born, poor me" doesn't sit well with me.

Why does there need to be an excuse and explanation at all?  Why can't I just own my choices in life and be afforded the respect to be judged on my own terms?  Who cares WHY I identify as a woman.  I am one so let's move forward

Anyone who views SRS as living with a mutaliation, probably doesn't like tatoos or piercings either.  Give me a break.  It's 2008.  Time to evolve our understanding of identity.

I dislike playing the victim card too.  'Its ok because its medical' is almost as bad as 'Its ok because its normal'.  I like the idea of just being seen as genderqueer who is doing their own thing, rather than someone who is a slave to a medical issue.  What annoys me is people with lousy justifications for why THEY are ok but other types of gender variant people aren't...

Most of the people responding are type of people who my original post sooo isn't aimed at.  It's aimed at those who have a very close-minded, old fashioned, (and often restrictive) view of gender not those who have, as you put it evolved the understanding of identity. 

I guess my original post reads as having a very body-dysphoria-centric view of things, which was unintentional.   Please don't think I have anything against people who transition or present in a gender variant manner for other reasons.  On the contrary, I have a lot of respect for those who have the confidence to outwardly be who they are for some reason other than sheer necessity.  (Oh and I should add that I can see how transitioning for social reasons may be necessary for emotional stability for some people).  On the plus side, the post has produced several replies which made me smile in agreement.

Posted on: January 29, 2008, 07:30:12 PM

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Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation.  What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all.  Does that mean I have to transition back or something?

Heh, there's a definite plus side to it being a matter of identity, nobody can tell you that you're wrong.  If you think you have dysphoria, then you do.  Whether it's persistant or whether it's a symptom of something else is arguable, but the fact that you feel it isn't (unless you're simply just lying).  The proof is tautologicaltastic!

Quote from: Andra on January 29, 2008, 07:37:33 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation.  What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all.  Does that mean I have to transition back or something?

I don't like being seen as someone with a disability.  I don't want to be seen as a disorder either.  I feel like both of those are sort of victim mentality's and shirk a lot of responsibility.  "I can't help it, it's just the way I was born, poor me" doesn't sit well with me.

Why does there need to be an excuse and explanation at all?  Why can't I just own my choices in life and be afforded the respect to be judged on my own terms?  Who cares WHY I identify as a woman.  I am one so let's move forward

Anyone who views SRS as living with a mutaliation, probably doesn't like tatoos or piercings either.  Give me a break.  It's 2008.  Time to evolve our understanding of identity.

I dislike playing the victim card too.  'Its ok because its medical' is almost as bad as 'Its ok because its normal'.  I like the idea of just being seen as genderqueer who is doing their own thing, rather than someone who is a slave to a medical issue.  What annoys me is people with lousy justifications for why THEY are ok but other types of gender variant people aren't...

Most of the people responding are type of people who my original post sooo isn't aimed at.  It's aimed at those who have a very close-minded, old fashioned, (and often restrictive) view of gender not those who have, as you put it evolved the understanding of identity. 

I guess my original post reads as having a very body-dysphoria-centric view of things, which was unintentional.   Please don't think I have anything against people who transition or present in a gender variant manner for other reasons.  On the contrary, I have a lot of respect for those who have the confidence to outwardly be who they are for some reason other than sheer necessity.  (Oh and I should add that I can see how transitioning for social reasons may be necessary for emotional stability for some people).  On the plus side, the post has produced several replies which made me smile in agreement.

Posted on: January 29, 2008, 07:30:12 PM

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Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PM
Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation.  What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all.  Does that mean I have to transition back or something?

Heh, there's a definite plus side to it being a matter of identity, nobody can tell you that you're wrong.  If you think you have dysphoria, then you do.  Whether it's persistant or whether it's a symptom of something else is arguable, but the fact that you feel it isn't (unless you're simply just lying).  The proof is tautologicaltastic!

Yeah I agreed with where the post you made was for the most part.  There's a lot I can be like "YEAAAAH" to.  So I'm glad to hear we are on the same side basically.  Because I thought we kind of were.  But I wasn't totally sure.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 07:47:33 PM

Yeah I agreed with where the post you made was for the most part.  There's a lot I can be like "YEAAAAH" to.  So I'm glad to hear we are on the same side basically.  Because I thought we kind of were.  But I wasn't totally sure.

Thanks, I was beginning to get worried that I'd been totally misconstrued   

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 07:05:22 PM

Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude...

Meh.  That kind of intense negative focus on one's past doesn't really help that much either.  I'd rather not consider myself a 20 year liar.  Especially since at my core I'm still the same person.  And enough of that got through growing up, that I think it's a mischaracterization to label myself a liar because of it.

Plus I mean.  It's no big deal.  Everyone has different backgrounds.  Invalidating mine to make someone else feel more comfortable isn't at all healthy.  If people want to really be close to me, they are going to have to accept that I grew up living one gender, and now live another.  I have valuable experiences because of that, and a good friend is going to want to hear those experiences, and hearing them won't invalidate how they see me now.

I have entirely valuable experiences through the way I was raised. I don't consider them bad points, because I would never have gotten this far. I do feel like I'm "living a lie" though. Even If I'm not, "Lying to myself", I seem to be doing so to others in keeping such a deep-seated secret.

I agree with what you said before too. If they tested my brain to see what gender it belonged to, and it came back male, I wouldn't care because of a few biological things programmed in. The things preprogrammed don't seem important to me anyway. I'm not a caveperson, why should I care about the roles adapted for that role? The point is, is that I don't feel right in my skin.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 07:05:22 PM

Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude...

Meh.  That kind of intense negative focus on one's past doesn't really help that much either.  I'd rather not consider myself a 20 year liar.  Especially since at my core I'm still the same person.  And enough of that got through growing up, that I think it's a mischaracterization to label myself a liar because of it.

Plus I mean.  It's no big deal.  Everyone has different backgrounds.  Invalidating mine to make someone else feel more comfortable isn't at all healthy.  If people want to really be close to me, they are going to have to accept that I grew up living one gender, and now live another.  I have valuable experiences because of that, and a good friend is going to want to hear those experiences, and hearing them won't invalidate how they see me now.

Sarah,

i often agree with what you say, and i like your posts. alot. i don't know why i haven't told you before. but you rock!

-ellie

At least she offers another point of view versus the rigid side.

Quote from: debbie.j on January 29, 2008, 07:14:28 PM

Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude... not 'not telling people that your trans'
R >

yes that is true  one the frist part rachel . but on the seconed part um,mmm why do you need to tell

people that you are trans . if they dont pick up on or have a clue  umm then  no harms or fauls.

but if for some reason they do  find this out by some chance . then yea it could be said that you lied . but

well i did mean that you aint lying or had t obe out.... oh bugger ><

Quote from: ell on January 29, 2008, 09:19:49 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 07:05:22 PM

Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude...

Meh.  That kind of intense negative focus on one's past doesn't really help that much either.  I'd rather not consider myself a 20 year liar.  Especially since at my core I'm still the same person.  And enough of that got through growing up, that I think it's a mischaracterization to label myself a liar because of it.

Plus I mean.  It's no big deal.  Everyone has different backgrounds.  Invalidating mine to make someone else feel more comfortable isn't at all healthy.  If people want to really be close to me, they are going to have to accept that I grew up living one gender, and now live another.  I have valuable experiences because of that, and a good friend is going to want to hear those experiences, and hearing them won't invalidate how they see me now.

Sarah,

i often agree with what you say, and i like your posts. alot. i don't know why i haven't told you before. but you rock!

-ellie

Thank you Ellie. 

Very interesting topic, Andra.  I'm glad you posted it.

Personally, I think you're right, that there is an "assimilationist" character to a lot of transsexual (less so for transgender) ideology.  The problem is when you begin to change YOURSELF to fit in to popular ideas of what your target sex should be like.  Some people really overdo it, totally abandoning old interests in favor of new, "gender-appropriate" interests.

At the same time, we do live in the real world, in a real social context, and it's pragmatic to conform.  I don't think there's any shame in assimilating, given the very real dangers of sticking out as "incorrect."  Until the transgender community has a major celebration of our own besides a Day of Remembrance for our Dead (which probably won't happen in the near future, unfortunately), I'm afraid I come down on the assimilationist side.  That is to say, there are no male aspects of my life that I've given up, but sticking out too much is an individual danger, unless we start roaming around in gangs.  >

I should note that professionally and with friends, I am pretty open (kind of unavoidable since I'm a gender/sexuality person in my MA program).  But who wants to wear their trans-ness on their sleeve walking down the street?  I don't see any other solution but to assimilate in public.

Lia

Quote from: Nichole W. on January 29, 2008, 04:22:43 PM
Lots of behavioral studies to show that regardless the conditioning sometimes if the 'conditioned behavior' is uncomfortable enough for the conditioned person, the conditioning becomes a utilitarian overlay that can quite easily be dispensed with in the absence of the coercion to employ it.

Ah. Nice to hear that.

This gives me a boost of confidence with my personal nature-vs-nurture hypothesis. Namely, that upbringing has some impact on just how GID affects one's life -- but in a way opposite to what the right-wing propaganda claims. If a person with GID is brought up too strictly according to their apparent birth sex, the end result is a lot of misery followed by transition (unless something terrible happens along the way, of course). If, on the other hand, the gender-specific conditioning is kept to low enough a level, it may be possible to grow into some diluted variant of birth-gender social role.

I'm pretty sure that's part of what happened to me; most of the 'utilitarian overlays' have dropped off over the years, and it's really hard to see artificial male traits to shed. I don't think my life so far has been a lie. Keeping honest may require some work, though, because of the weird way various gender-related concepts interfere with each other, from my body image through anatomical sex to social gender.

  Nfr

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PMWho cares WHY I identify as a woman.

Right, there is no "why" to identity, it's just something that is.  I identify as a female and that's why I transitioned.  It's as simple as that.  There are no tests and nothing to invalidate my reasoning.

To everybody who has posted here my only input is:

YES!!!

Quote from: Melissa on January 30, 2008, 05:16:57 PM

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 29, 2008, 06:31:28 PMWho cares WHY I identify as a woman.

Right, there is no "why" to identity, it's just something that is.  I identify as a female and that's why I transitioned.  It's as simple as that.  There are no tests and nothing to invalidate my reasoning.

Well, and nice to see you too, stranger! 

tink

Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 10:39:32 PM

Quote from: debbie.j on January 29, 2008, 07:14:28 PM

Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 06:54:55 PM
the lieing is living as a dude... not 'not telling people that your trans'
R >

yes that is true  one the frist part rachel . but on the seconed part um,mmm why do you need to tell

people that you are trans . if they dont pick up on or have a clue  umm then  no harms or fauls.

but if for some reason they do  find this out by some chance . then yea it could be said that you lied . but

well i did mean that you aint lying or had t obe out.... oh bugger ><

oh its ok Rachael   

sorry I know this topic is a little old but I have been gone for a long time so I wanted to give my two cents worth (I doubt it is really worth that) maybe we feel the need to give these bad justifactions because the way we are judged even in the official determination of weather we are transsexuals is based on sterotypes. take for example the COGIATI test it seems to rely mostly on sterotypical gender expression as to weather we truely are transsexual or not. in the process of being "allowed" to go through with SRS it seems we are forced to conform to these sterotypes if we want SRS. if we are going to be forced to justify ourselfs to the world as to weather we deserve the right to live as who we know we are then it pushes the idea that it is ok to judge based on these standards. this is just one opinion.

Id like to express something here.
My views in this topic are my own. not part of getting in on some drama giggles... If my doubters would like to look at my posts, they  can see ive expressed this view many times, and id like them to stfu complaining and insinuating behind my back....
R >