Hi Twoman44  (that a terrible way to address you, did I miss a name?)

  I am 64 and started HRT in December. I can attest that we can fight this for a long long time and deny that it is more than what it is. I used to believe that crossdressing was enough. For me that was a lie.  I waffled between periods of not dressing, sometimes for significantly long periods, and binge dressing.  I'd get my fix and put it away for awhile.
What is good for your husband and yourself I cannot say. I can only relate my experiences.

   As for your other questions you will get various responses here, some of them really good, but questions regarding what HRT can and cannot do for someone and dosages are best left for  the professionals and that I am not.
I'm sorry I cannot help you further.

  Jeanette

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 10, 2017, 09:25:35 AM
My husband as always been anti LGBTQ. But I think that was because he was hiding from himself. I started seeing a change in him (around the time Bruce Jenner came out) but I couldn't understand what was going on!

Yes, that's very common: most people who are homophobic or transphobic are only that way because they have their own issues in those areas, so you could be onto something there. P.S. her name is Caitlyn Jenner.

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 10, 2017, 09:25:35 AM
I'm going to take your advice and back off for awhile and let him be just man right now and let things cool off for a bit. But I'm sure the urge (he says it can become pretty strong sometimes) will be back soon and I'll be back on the roller coaster as he will be too.

It's great that you're aware of this and prepared to offer assistance. Yes, let your husband take the lead and let him know how much you love & accept him. When it comes back, be ready with advice, support and the contact details of that gender therapist. It will come round again, and it'll keep getting stronger with time.  But you must let him lead the way.

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 10, 2017, 09:25:35 AM
I have a few new questions. I hope you don't mind.... you ladies are my best source for understanding right now since my husband can't tell me as he doesn't really know how to answer the questions and right now he doesn't want to talk about any of it...

Well, we're not all ladies here (there's a little 'gender' flag under everyone's avatar that shows whether we're male, female or otherwise)... but I'm happy to answer anyway.

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 10, 2017, 09:25:35 AM
1.earlier I asked about HRT (something my husband deeply wants but says he won't do). Someone mentioned that the low dose can help calm the mind and thoughts. My husband read that. What does that actually mean? How does it calm your thoughts? Also given in low doses, what are the body changes that can be expected? I ask because he says if he could just get small breast development, some softer skin, his fat to redistribute, and his thoughts to all down he would welcome those changes. But... he wants them to be subtle changes so that people on the outside won't really notice too much but he and I will know what's underneath the clothes.

The best explanation I can come up with for how we feel when we're under the influence of the wrong hormones is to compare us to cars: you know how we have diesel cars and petrol/gasoline cars, right? Well, the car represents your body and the diesel or petrol represents the hormones on which your body runs. Think of what happens if you put diesel in a petrol-engined car (or vice versa): it can't run properly and you won't go anywhere, right? That's what it currently feels like for your husband to have testosterone running through those veins when his brain expects oestrogen (the same as it would feel for you if you were to have testosterone running through your veins). But as we're humans, not cars, the wrong hormones can make us feel cranky, anxious, depressed... we basically feel like there's something fundamentally wrong going on in our bodies. Because, in actual fact, there is! So a low dose can help alleviate some of that feeling of discomfort, and can quiet the storm within. I feel a million percent calmer and more settled now that I'm on testosterone: those monthly hormone swings are so much worse if your brain isn't geared up to expect them.

As for those subtle changes, yes they can be very welcome but don't be surprised if your husband's need to transition speeds up at that point. That's often the case: as our minds & bodies start to represent who we really are, we feel a stronger need to go even faster until we get to the point where we finally feel comfortable (whatever that might be).

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 10, 2017, 09:25:35 AM
2. What if he battles this the rest of his life because he's afraid of loosing friends and family, his lifestyle (he is a manly man who hunts, fishes, drinks beer (alcoholic) and chews tobacco! There is nothing feminine about him.

You'll be surprised how many women here have done similar 'manly' things. Many trans women are military veterans, and do you know why? Because when you're struggling with your gender identity and are trying to force yourself to be happy with living as your birth sex, it's pretty common to throw yourself in the deep end to try to make yourself accept it. Let's face it, joining the military is probably considered the most masculine thing you can do, right? As are hunting, fishing etc. The problem is: it doesn't work in the long term. Because if you're a woman, then you can do all the masculine things in the world but nothing is going to change the fact that you're a woman, is it? A woman who hunts, fishes, drinks beer and chews tobacco is still a woman.

I did something similar: I got married & had a couple of kids in an effort to force myself to accept being female. Because that's the most 'womanly' thing you can do, right? Same principle... and no, it didn't work (obviously!).

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 10, 2017, 09:25:35 AM
3.earlier I mentioned my attraction was toward men not women (we are pretty but I'm not sexually attracted to them) but I love the person I'm married to not just the man part of him. I'm f he was to go on HRT, our sex life would be completely different.... I love having PIV sex... he says that's one reason he would not want to do HRT as he loves it too. Is there a way to have it both ways?... As a woman, I love the closeness that PIV brings to me.

I love the closeness of PiV too, but I'm not a woman. And no, it's NOT just women that get penetrated during sex - I certainly don't magically morph into a woman, even when enjoying PiV.

Some women do the penetrating, some men are penetrated. Some women only have sex with other women, some men only have sex with other men. It's all good. PiV is only one way of having sex; there are literally thousands of other ways of doing it. Oh, and if you're trying anal you need to make sure it's done right with lots of preparation. Think about what your husband didn't like about it: was it discomfort/pain? (in which case, more prep is needed). Or was it internalised misogyny or homophobia about the idea of being penetrated?

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 10, 2017, 09:25:35 AM
I sure hope you don't mind all of these questions from me. I'm really trying to learn, understand, be supportive, and be as accepting as I can be. But at the same time I'm feelings by bad for his struggle and I'm grieving for the loss of what I thought my marriage looked like.

Ask away, we're happy to help and we hope it makes your journey together a better one. If your husband decides to put this on the back burner, please consider leaving your account open so you can return at a later date when it comes up again.

Mentally HRT did a lot for me and it happened really quickly.
- It cured my depression.  At that time I had gotten to the point that nearly every night I prayed I would die in my sleep.  That all went away.
- It cured my anger.  I was angry all the time and was taking it out on my wife.  For a long time we were having fights nearly every day and nearly always instigated by me.  Since starting HRT we no longer fight, ever.  Sure, we still disagree on some things but the angry fights are no more.
- It stopped the incessant voice in my head so that today I am much more focused and able to concentrate on things.
- It cured my daily drinking.  I wasn't really an alcoholic but I did deliberately get drunk nearly every day to dull the anxiety and despair.  Now I might have a beer or two every three or four months.

These were the big ones.

I want to share something I wrote here not long after starting HRT.  Maybe it will communicate a little of what was going on in my mind.

QuoteI became self-aware,  opened my eyes and saw only darkness.  Feeling with my fingers; plain wood, coffin like, buried in the cold earth.  At first I laid quietly inside, accepting my fate.  But the darkness and the stifling air became overpowering.  I began to scream, clawing at the unyielding lid, crying for release, praying for divine intervention.  But nobody came.  I began to tire and in resignation waited for the eternal darkness to take away this cold lonely existence.  But it can't hurt to try just one more time.  So again I cried out for release in a voice I thought barely audible, weak and exhausted from a lifetime alone in the box.  But this time somebody heard.  The sound of footsteps approaching.  Scratching noises on the outside of the lid.  A sliver of light and for the first time I felt hope.  Is this my release? Can it really be?  Then with a crash the lid falls away and the light of a thousand suns fills my space but my eyes, never before having seen light, are overwhelmed and leave me unable to see.  But I am now free, and in my freedom there is happiness.  A strange feeling; something new.  My eyes will slowly adjust to this wonderful new light as I take one slow step at a time in the world, others helping me, away from that cursed box.  The evil ones of the Dark Lord gather in the distance with their torches and pitchforks, their black robes billowing as if in a furious wind, chanting in a frenzied unison for the witch to be imprisoned again into the box of death.  The evil ones, calling me a witch.  I smile inwardly at that irony as I take another small step away from that cold dark box, never to return.

Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: FTMDiaries on March 10, 2017, 10:13:16 AM
You'll be surprised how many women here have done similar 'manly' things. Many trans women are military veterans, and do you know why? Because when you're struggling with your gender identity and are trying to force yourself to be happy with living as your birth sex, it's pretty common to throw yourself in the deep end to try to make yourself accept it.

Yes, I was an Army Ranger and a commander of Paratroopers.  Not quite the stereotype people think of.



Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Just one quick comment, just hearing you refer to us as "ladies" means more to some of us than you might know. We thank you for that.

Roni

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 09, 2017, 08:15:21 PM
He said he wanted to keep it a secret and take it to the grave.

That's exactly what I used to say to myself.  Even down to the exact same words I would use in my internal dialog.  It's a long journey.  I hope he can one day find some peace and acceptance with his gender identity.

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 09, 2017, 08:15:21 PM
He says that It's my fault because now he's forced to talk about it and is in no way going to a counselor about it. He said he wanted to keep it a secret and take it to the grave.... I just don't know what to do at this point.

This put me in a ranty mood.

CONTENT WARNING:  UNGENTLE THOUGHTS EXPRESSED BELOW

He might take it to his grave sooner than either of you expects if he doesn't face up to this issue.  Like cancer, running away doesn't solve anything.  And like cancer, if untreated, it will kill him.

As for him blaming you for bringing it out in the open -- let's just say I'm not impressed.  (That's putting it mildly.)  I don't think I need to say any more -- res ipsa loquitur.

I'm tempted to tell him he should "man up" and face the reality that he's transgender (in some form) and deal with it like a grown-up.  It's called being honest.  It's call moral courage.  You've got a lot more patience than I would have.

I'm beginning to see what people mean when they tell me I'm "brave."

I blamed my wife also.  I was totally unjustified, even then I knew it was kind of weak, but this is how that thought process works.

I had been told by my parents I was sick, crazy, etc. and that message is reinforced by society.  I also heard from the Church that Jesus would fix everything.  So anyway, after I was about 13 I determined that I would beat it.  About 30+ years after that, despite my best efforts I had not beat it and Jesus was no help at all.  So I looked for reasons for this failure and latched onto the idea that if only my wife had been better or done something different then I might have succeeded.  Of course, that was totally ridiculous and she was not to blame for any of it.  I think that maybe was part of the root cause of all my anger and resentment. 

Fortunately, I did get my mind straightened out and all my anger, resentment, and blame is gone.

If your husband's thoughts are anything like mine were then the only reason he puts any blame on you is because you're the closest target and it helps relieve himself of a tremendous amount of unearned guilt that is instilled by parents, Church, and society as a whole.  I use the word unearned because this is quite beyond anyone's ability to turn off at will. 


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

He says that for the past 30 + years he delt with it well (fantasizing about being a woman during masrurbation) then when we got together 17 years ago he had access to my clothes (nothing fit him) but he started 13 years ago (after our daughter was born) wearing one of my bras during masturbation. He said that this satisfied his urges when they would get bad (about once or twice a month). But when I caught him with one of my bras.... he played it off as a fetish or a kinky thing he did to get aroused for masturbation. Then he told me about a week later about his "feminine side" and after that. I had many questions to say the least.... He says that because of all my questions it is all he wants hinks about now. That before he was faced with everything that he never thought about actually becoming a woman or going on HRT or shaving his legs or dressing fully in women's clothing but now he say that he/we are feeding it and he wants to go back to when it was a secret and he can control his thoughts better. Our relationship will never be the same (that's because he shuts down) and he blames me for coming home one day and "catching" him.... but all I thought was that it (the bra) was just a turn on. He is the one who told me about possibly being a Transgender. Still to this day he won't fully admit it. He says that he doesn't always want to be a woman. He says he just likes to feel feminine sometimes but always feels he wants breasts. I was wondering if it was a sexual thing or did he feel he was missing that part of his body... then he said that if he really let his mind wander... he can actually feel like he has a vagina (when he would masturbate).  Honestly... I have wondered if he had some kind of sexual fantasy he has made up over the course of his life (the perfect woman to fantasize about so to speak). Could he have made this up in his head? I'm courious because I have read it's possible... I have also read abou Gyenophillia which sounds a lot like him too. Then we hav to allied about the term Gender Fluid (would you meet HRT for that???) That's why I want him to see a gender specialist to take what it's not off the table... HE WONT GO...

I cannot in any way diagnose anyone and I'm not a psychologist anyway.  But nothing you wrote about him in your last post is in any way unusual for transsexuals.  The fantasy stuff is not creating a perfect woman.  It's simply the only way of dealing with this when no other outlet is permitted.  For a few moments one might, in their head at least, feel whole.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 10, 2017, 09:25:35 AM
1.earlier I asked about HRT (something my husband deeply wants but says he won't do). Someone mentioned that the low dose can help calm the mind and thoughts. My husband read that. What does that actually mean? How does it calm your thoughts? Also given in low doses, what are the body changes that can be expected? I ask because he says if he could just get small breast development, some softer skin, his fat to redistribute, and his thoughts to all down he would welcome those changes. But... he wants them to be subtle changes so that people on the outside won't really notice too much but he and I will know what's underneath the clothes.

In the MTF, testosterone is really nasty stuff. It seems to have a greater effect on us that it does on a CIS male. When we are under the influence we experience dysphoria. I know of two forms. The first is body dysphoria were we feel our body is wrong and we want things like breast or a shapely body and we hate the package between our legs. The second form is social where we feel we don't fit into life. We may feel both form of dysphoria or we may feel one more than the other. This can cause extreme depression that may cycle or be pretty much a constant companion. Everybody seems to experience dysphoria a little differently but we know it when we see it in somebody else. The other issues the the testosterone seems to produce an increased sex drive that may express it's self in standard or non standard ways. Blocking testosterones will help bring both of these feeling under more control but how well it works depends on the individual. I know of one person who is resisting the role transition but has done everything but a social transition. Eliminating testosterone has reduced the need for a social transition but hasn't totally eliminated it.

As for what HRT will do is anybodies guess. I do know that the FTMs often pass male for years without altering their body so it can be done. A second option if things get out of control is a breast reduction surgery. Just be careful with that decision because we have a member who de transitioned, had a mastectomy and now somewhat regrets it.

Quote
2. What if he battles this the rest of his life because he's afraid of loosing friends and family, his lifestyle (he is a manly man who hunts, fishes, drinks beer (alcoholic) and chews tobacco! There is nothing feminine about him. That's why it's such a shock to me. He was the last person I though would be female deep down.

My parents and even one of my therapist thought I was to male to be a woman. Must have had something to do with my height or my very deep voice. In any case, we have members who dealing with the pressure of dysphoria ended up with physical complications. It's not healthy living with all that pressure and if you body isn't affected, your relationship with other is. Many of the member report that undergoing treatment has made them a better person.

Quote
3.earlier I mentioned my attraction was toward men not women (we are pretty but I'm not sexually attracted to them) but I love the person I'm married to not just the man part of him. I'm f he was to go on HRT, our sex life would be completely different.... I love having PIV sex... he says that's one reason he would not want to do HRT as he loves it too. Is there a way to have it both ways? How would sex be if he couldn't t anymore? We have tried toys but they don't do anything for me... we did try anal on him (he wanted to try, women get penetrated during sex right?)..... he can't handle it... he has had an issue with hemoroids before (I know TMI). So I'm asking because I'm not orried about that. As a woman, I love the closeness that PIV brings to me.

If your husband is comfortable with PIV and willing to forgo surgery, careful adjustment of HRT might preserve function. If surgery is a requirement, you would have to explore new ways of expressing yourself. This is where therapy will come it because you will need to state what you require and he will have to determine what he can provide. I am not an expert on sex but there are other things that you might find satisfactory.

Quote from: Twoman44 on March 10, 2017, 05:40:24 PM
He says that for the past 30 + years he delt with it well (fantasizing about being a woman during masrurbation) then when we got together 17 years ago he had access to my clothes (nothing fit him) but he started 13 years ago (after our daughter was born) wearing one of my bras during masturbation. He said that this satisfied his urges when they would get bad (about once or twice a month). But when I caught him with one of my bras.... he played it off as a fetish or a kinky thing he did to get aroused for masturbation. Then he told me about a week later about his "feminine side" and after that. I had many questions to say the least.... He says that because of all my questions it is all he wants hinks about now. That before he was faced with everything that he never thought about actually becoming a woman or going on HRT or shaving his legs or dressing fully in women's clothing but now he say that he/we are feeding it and he wants to go back to when it was a secret and he can control his thoughts better. Our relationship will never be the same (that's because he shuts down) and he blames me for coming home one day and "catching" him.... but all I thought was that it (the bra) was just a turn on. He is the one who told me about possibly being a Transgender. Still to this day he won't fully admit it. He says that he doesn't always want to be a woman. He says he just likes to feel feminine sometimes but always feels he wants breasts. I was wondering if it was a sexual thing or did he feel he was missing that part of his body... then he said that if he really let his mind wander... he can actually feel like he has a vagina (when he would masturbate).  Honestly... I have wondered if he had some kind of sexual fantasy he has made up over the course of his life (the perfect woman to fantasize about so to speak). Could he have made this up in his head? I'm courious because I have read it's possible... I have also read abou Gyenophillia which sounds a lot like him too. Then we hav to allied about the term Gender Fluid (would you meet HRT for that???) That's why I want him to see a gender specialist to take what it's not off the table... HE WONT GO...

As I said above, testosterone can really mess up a brain. It can produce an excessive sex drive and an over active fantasy life. We tend to really be happy when the uncontrolled thoughts fade as the blockers take effect. Diagnosing somebody while under the influence of testosterone is difficult because you don't know what is real and what is the chemical.

Gender fluid may be helped by HRT as well. I have heard that it can reduce the switching and if somebody is more feminine that masculine, that a transition is appropriate.

Something else your husband should be aware of. While some relations ships break up because a person transitioned, other have broke up because a partner refused to face treatment. We have a few member currently on the site who could have faced this years ago but instead hid the issue and destroyed their marriage in the process.

One last little thought, as nasty as the MTF consider testosterone, it's god sent for the FTM. FTMs have dysphoria much like us except the cause is estrogen instead of testosterone. Their mind come under control and they feel a reduction in dysphoria with the very hormone that causes us issues.

If he is gender fluid, why the HRT to help him feel more female? What if his Testosterone levels are low? Would getting that in balance help as well?

Usually higher testosterone levels just make it worse.  Before I started HRT my levels were several hundred points above average, close to the top end for my age.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Testosterone can cause the switching that a gender fluid person experiences. Suppressing testosterone suppresses the switching. Estrogen isn't a major player in this but it helps feminize the body and protects against damage to the bones from calcium loss. As for low testosterone, I know mine was on the lower end of the scale but I had dysphoria pretty hard, I can live with a little testosterone because I am now mid range feminine and it's not causing problems but I sure don't want to return to the older levels.

We have member who were in the low testosterone ranges and they were diagnosed when they were young. Mostly they were intersex so the doctors where easily able to know about it. To make men out of them, they gave the testosterone and the end result was they went down hill with full blown dysphoria. Our brains just don't react well to anything above a low level of testosterone.

When I transitioned, HRT was far more primitive and we didn't have anything to suppress the testosterone. As the result, I had testosterone in my system up to the day of surgery and only after surgery was I fully free of it's effects. The good thing was that I had social dysphoria so cross living eliminated a portion of the discomfort I felt.

At the moment I suspect that she feels trapped. Trapped between wanting desperately to bury her feelings, and needing to be the man.

The shutdown is normal as far as I know, to grant headspace to be able to process and try to bury what's actually going on. A therapist would help, but she's in a place where pushing will probably shut things down further still, and hormone testing will probably fall into the same camp (all puns intended), as she's been fighting these feelings for many years, and won't readily want to acknowledge them.

She trusts you a lot, so have some time together, taking time to provide diversion to the issues that have been uncovered, as that is all that she will be thinking of right now. Even when making tea. She will get to a point where she will need someone to lean on, and she will need to start the process. Sadly, that can't be hurried.

(Hugs)

Rowan

Hi twoman44, its encouraging to find you so accepting of her being transgender. I cannot give any better advice than what has already been said. I just want to say that not only are you helping her by sharing her story but helping others as well from the advice given. some of the things that she is going thru is what has been the same for myself. so the advice given has also fit my situation. she does trust you enough to come out to you but I don't feel the same with my spouse at this time. believe me accepting oneself of this is very difficult and yes it does come in waves one day denial next day acceptance and the thought is always there no matter what I do, telling yourself to stop doesn't work. just be there for her. I can tell that you will be.   

Hello,
As others have already said, I am NOT a therapist, so I can't tell you this is the right thing to do or that is the wrong one. All I can do is to relate MY story to yours. And I see SOOOOOO many similarities between your Husband's story and mine. I used to be VERY vocal in my opposition to Gays (And let's not even get into THOSE trans people). But in reality, It was because I knew it hit way too close to home. I went to a Tri-Ess (Crossdresser's support group) one day and left as soon as I could politely get out of there thinking, "I'm not like THOSE freaks". (I was!) I used to be satisfied with a quick slipping on of panties,bra, and/or slip. I got "Caught" a few times and was able to successfully lie my way out of it (Even though she was still suspicious). I would buy myself some panties and a bra, maybe even a slip or a dress and would enjoy them for about a week, then I would get disgusted with myself and throw it all away. I could put on an article of (usually her) clothing for 3 minutes about once every week or two and be satisfied with that. Now I FREQUENTLY dress and sleep in a nightgown most nights yet I am constantly yearning for more. What keeps me from transitioning? My love for my wife, My desire to keep a good relationship with my family, and fear over the hardships that we would BOTH face if I were to transition. (And I'm an early retiree so "I" don't have job issues to worry about but I DO have to worry about my wife's employment.)  It's scary to think about going through not only the medical procedures but all that our society does to us as well. And growing up as "a man" we were constantly told to suppress our feelings and emotions. To be the provider for our family. To safeguard and protect our wives...especially since women are "the weaker sex". (And what idiot would want to go from being a big, strong, man to being a weak pretty feminine woman? ME! THAT'S WHO! But that's another story!  ) ( And before someone gets mad at me, the previous statements were written with sarcasm in mind (Except for me wanting to be a woman!)...An attempt to illustrate how many in the world denigrate us. NOT as true statements of my opinions!) In my opinion, a lot of the "shutting down" and pushing you away is his sub-conscious way of protecting you because he is terrified of what may be going on for him and of what the future may bring. So my advice. Tell him you love him. Hold him. Kiss him. Try to suggest a couples counselor who is well versed in transgender issues. (don't try just any counselor. There are many who know NOTHING about TG issues and could easily make matters worse!) And reassure him that you will always love him and be there for him. Even if he becomes she.

AllisonFS I tell him everyday. I tell him it is very hard for me (and him) but I want what makes him happy. The only thing I'm really afraid of is him changing his sexual orientation (he says he's not attracted to men, but others have said they lied about it for awhile...) as I hear so many Transgender women do after going in HRT. That really scares me!

I can imagine that would be a concern. Sadly, that issue is way above my level of knowledge. I'm sorry I can't help you there. But I do think you are an amazing wife to be so dedicated!

Some, but not all do. I personally can't see myself ever being with a man.

Gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate things, if I wanted guys, I'd just be a feminine gay guy, it would certainly be easier and is more acceptable in this society. It's also what everyone assumes I am. I just like everything about women, and dislike most everything about men. I just don't enjoy dating women like a man, I hate being the one making the first moves, being the one to choose where we go, etc.