Quote from: Bacon on April 03, 2017, 05:48:18 PM
There's a difference between wanting to be a guy and actually being one though, which is kind of my whole point. As you are now, you wouldn't qualify for any male-specific activities/clubs or be treated as a guy by 99% of society.

Same thing could be said for many masculine women though.

Same thing could be said for many masculine women.

See above.

See above.

This to me at least suggests that you're trans, but again, there must be a difference between wanting to be something and actually being something.

For example, let's say I want to be a famous musician. I could say that musicians seem to get along well with me and invite me into their inner circle. That as a preschooler, I gravitated toward musical activities. That I worshipped rock stars. That I would have dreams of myself playing huge, sold-out shows. Etc.

Does all that make me a famous musician? Nope. Obviously not. It just means that I want to be one. There are certain criteria that I'd have to meet to be considered a famous musician: I'd have to actually sell records and be popular enough that many people know my name. Since I don't meet those criteria, I can't in good conscience say I'm a famous musician, and if I did, I'd be considered totally delusional.

Why is it that gender is different?

All definitions of "male" are ones that we cannot claim:

"Male, which is applied to plants and animals as well as to human beings, is a biological or physiological descriptor, classifying individuals on the basis of their potential or actual ability to inseminate in bisexual reproduction."

"A person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence."

"An organism of the sex that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete."

We have no claim to any of these...

Now maybe it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, and we should all just say "screw it" and do whatever we want, because the world is absurd and will end in another few billion years anyway. But that doesn't really make it easier for me to do the mental gymnastics required to arrive at the conclusion that I already -am- male or that I ever truly will be.

So maybe I'll have to settle for something else. Like acknowledging that I'm a woman that, for whatever reason, would rather look like and live as a man even if I'm not one. But this would probably lead to the same feelings of being a fraud. Being thought to be something by others and by society that isn't reality.

This topic went crazy I hadnt the chance to read the second page

but regarding the quote of what makes plants, animals, etc. physiologically male, you do realize a lot of them still exist that are anomalies, bizarre chromosomal, hormonal, genital, etc. structures exist where the body doesnt work in perfect harmony to portray a male or female animal, overall those things working together give you a population where the majority of species are male or female, but animals to exist that appear male or appear female despite chromosomal evidence that they are not (female deer will sometimes grow antlers, female lions will sometimes grow manes)

Maybe they will still be "female", but they wont look it, and they may even not behave it. That is what being transgender is.

Call it what you want, females pretending to be males, males born as females, whatever. It shouldntatter though, we're people in the end. We are people. You shouldnt be forced into these harmful feelings to please everyone else, you have the right to feel comfort, if it's pretending to be or looking like or being a male then that's part of your rights as a person

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PM
More comfortable in their delusions, maybe. Or just girls that think it's trendy or somehow empowering to say they're guys when they aren't and aren't even trying to live or look like them. Maleness and femaleness will cease to have meaning at all if ANYONE can say they are either without even looking the part.

There is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that maleness and femaleness are not directly, inextricably connected to physicality. When people say that gender and sex shouldn't be conflated, it's pure nonsense. A trans man wouldn't say he identifies with the male gender unless he was thinking of wanting the body of the male sex, or the characteristics associated with the male sex. Gender and sex may not be the same but they have to be extremely closely linked or else maleness and femaleness lose all their meaning entirely. My current opinion is that "gender" is the "sex" you want to be and "sex" is the "sex" you actually are.

That's good but you're one of the few trans guys I've met that actually acknowledge that we're not the same as cis guys. Many deny that they are female at all, which doesn't make any sense.

I think these types of people have done more harm than good for the trans community. Many of them are just teenage girls that are playing around with labels to feel different and unique. They think that they can suddenly be men, the holy grail!, as long as they say they are. If society thought we were jokes before, they have much more reason to think it now, with people identifying as demiboys or demigirls or non-binary or insisting on being called he/him even when they present 100% female, etc.

That's why I'm currently in favor of a more honest, logical, realistic, non-delusional approach. I think that I could support other trans men more, as well as myself, if we all just acknowledged the reality of the situation: we're women that want to be men. To deny that we're women, to deny that we're female, to insist that we are 100% male and just as male as any cis guy...to me, it absolutely borders on (if not flat-out characterizes) delusional insanity.

There MUST be a logical basis for our claims. Whether it's the male brain thing, or having a male self-image, whatever. To say we "feel" male doesn't cut it. There is no such thing as feeling male. Feeling stereotypically masculine? Sure. Again, not the same thing as being male. There are many, many women that feel more masculine than feminine. They're still not male.



I definitely disagree. Pretty much all the men and women I've ever known act and think in different ways, many of which seem hard-wired. These are men and women from different cultures, backgrounds, upbringings, etc. And if socialization were the only factor, then all of us trans men would think and act more femininely than we naturally do, because that's how we were raised and socialized. Instead, we resist that socialization because our brains are telling us differently.

As unpopular as it is, I absolutely agree with a lot of your points. I am male, but I'm well aware I am biologically female. In day to day life I call myself male because that is now how I look, what people see, how I act, how I feel. Sometimes I wonder if I had to go through the trouble of people thinking I was a delusional crazy to be this way, and the answer is Im not sure anymore. Im just doing what gives me the most comfort, and people who dont know me see what I am, and people who truly know me know the kind of comfort I have being the way I am...I am not trying to be delusional, I am just being myself.

I do especially agree with you that some transtrenders take on the label of trans, do nothing in physical presentation and therefore it is a meaningless word...it seems very off to me. It may be harmful, but at the same time it's best to maybe gently explain it to them in a logical approach, and/or let them be to figure themselves out on their own. I think to constitute as transgender one must feel some type of dysphoria and wish to change. In the end, it's Poe's law, you dont know who is and isnt a "real" transgender, kids will be kids and maybe they'll grow up and understand themselves more, as long as they are given facts and information to learn by. Whatever they want to call themselves might just be words, maybe they'll just end up being the same person in the end....whatever crazy labels or physical attributes they have.


As for male and female brains, whether they are the same or different. I think most are vaguely different, although at the same time there are still many atypical males and females, so it's hard to draw a line somewhere, there may be an average but there certainly isnt any overall absolutes.

Quote from: Kylo on April 05, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
But it feels like the public consensus is moving the opposite way. Lots of people out there wanting to label men as inherently sexist, born rapists. As long as they've got people believing that, they'll demand more segregation in bathrooms and special "safe spaces" for women away from men. Not many people seem keen on the idea of neutral anything.

So this grinds my gears. There is an absolute issue with the way bio men express themselves sexually. Just gonna say it. Rape, harrassment, assault, revenge porn, online threats, etc all are 90% bio male driven. Worldwide men are by and large the biggest threat to women (and children). Just a fact. Trafficking wouldn't exist if there were no men. Too many men use their size and penis as a weapon. It's a real, serious problem and I think women have AMPLE evidence to want to protect themselves. And I say this as someone who is now seen as part of the problem. Not to mention male victims. I don't know if it's inherent or leaned but it's in my opinion one of the biggest issues facing the world.

Where are you getting the 90% from.

Ah, this assuming the world would be some comparative heaven if men weren't in it doesn't wash with me. I say this as someone with personal experience of women being just as despicable, if not more so, than men because they largely got away with their transgressions and continued them. Crime stats have shown a problem in defining rape that leaves sexual assault (rape) by women misrepresented, but they aren't that far behind. It's been admitted by judges they have a hard time bringing themselves to punish women found guilty of serious crimes equally to men and the police arrest based on a model assuming the guilt of a man over a woman at a crime scene. Until the system is fair, you aren't even going to get an accurate picture of what women are capable of.

But they are certainly capable of violence, rape and murder. I've seen it. And it isn't because some man is making them do it. They are just as competent in exacting evil if they want to. Anyone who thinks otherwise is extremely naive.

How many men do you know who are rapists, violent toward women and children and threaten harassment or revenge. Are most of the guys you know scumbags of this kind? Or is it more likely that no, the majority of men are not actually monsters who belong in prison.

I'm aware how men express themselves sexually, and they are not all the same - was every guy I encountered practically slapping me in the face with "it"? Not at all. Sure, one or two in my time did not know where the line was, and they soon found out. But that's one or two. Out of the many hundreds or thousands of men I've met and interacted with in life. And there were women who acted inappropriately too, only they were even less aware of boundaries... probably because few people even believe a woman can force herself on someone. Should I tar every one of them who knows how to behave with the brush of the few who don't? Because if you're not going to do that for all women because of the bad women that exist, why should you do it for men.

Yes, "men" do commit crime in the world and get recorded as arrested and convicted of it more than women. Still not nearly the majority of men in the world are doing it. If this were the case in my past life I would have been avoiding all men, shrinking in fear every time I passed by a male human being. Is that the case for you and most other people? From what I see, that is not what most other people are doing either.

Quote from: Kylo on April 06, 2017, 02:55:19 PM
Where are you getting the 90% from.

Ah, this assuming the world would be some comparative heaven if men weren't in it doesn't wash with me. I say this as someone with personal experience of women being just as despicable, if not more so, than men because they largely got away with their transgressions and continued them. Crime stats have shown a problem in defining rape that leaves sexual assault (rape) by women misrepresented, but they aren't that far behind. It's been admitted by judges they have a hard time bringing themselves to punish women found guilty of serious crimes equally to men and the police arrest based on a model assuming the guilt of a man over a woman at a crime scene. Until the system is fair, you aren't even going to get an accurate picture of what women are capable of.

But they are certainly capable of violence, rape and murder. I've seen it. And it isn't because some man is making them do it. They are just as competent in exacting evil if they want to. Anyone who thinks otherwise is extremely naive.

How many men do you know who are rapists, violent toward women and children and threaten harassment or revenge. Are most of the guys you know scumbags of this kind? Or is it more likely that no, the majority of men are not actually monsters who belong in prison.

I'm aware how men express themselves sexually, and they are not all the same - was every guy I encountered practically slapping me in the face with "it"? Not at all. Sure, one or two in my time did not know where the line was, and they soon found out. But that's one or two. Out of the many hundreds or thousands of men I've met and interacted with in life. And there were women who acted inappropriately too, only they were even less aware of boundaries... probably because few people even believe a woman can force herself on someone. Should I tar every one of them who knows how to behave with the brush of the few who don't? Because if you're not going to do that for all women because of the bad women that exist, why should you do it for men.

Yes, "men" do commit crime in the world and get recorded as arrested and convicted of it more than women. Still not nearly the majority of men in the world are doing it. If this were the case in my past life I would have been avoiding all men, shrinking in fear every time I passed by a male human being. Is that the case for you and most other people? From what I see, that is not what most other people are doing either.

I don't know any racists but there definitely are a s**t ton of them. I'm​ a hetero man, formerly a "lesbian" so I've know a lot of women over my almost 36 years. The amount that have been sexually abused by a man is...disgraceful. My older sister included. It's not just the abusers it's the cavalier attitude and the simpatico that too many men have with sexual misbehavior from men. Like I said prostitution, sex trafficking literally would not exist if not for the sexual behavior of men. It just would not, man. Millions of women and children sold into it globally, annually. No way around it. As a man who has relationships with women I see what happens. And I see the effects.

And you really honestly believe women commit acts of rape and sexual abuse as much as men?

OP, totally derailed your topic. My sincere apologies!

Quote from: CMD042414 on April 06, 2017, 04:26:50 PM
And you really honestly believe women commit acts of rape and sexual abuse as much as men?

I said they aren't far behind, if you go look into the statistics. They have a way of representing rape with a penis as 'different' from rape with an object or forced envelopment though, which they often do not even call "rape" (though it technically is) so if the whim takes you to go delving for those numbers you should be aware of it. You have to go looking for cases of various designations of "sexual assault" by women instead, since some countries do not even record women as capable of penetrative rape with an object or forcing themselves on a person. In the worst case scenarios, a woman is not even thought of as capable of committing a sex assault of any kind, and so it isn't even logged.

Sex trafficking? Not beyond women to be involved in the selling of women too. Just like it's mostly female relatives who endorse and perform illegal female genital mutilations, women are not always "looking out for women". Sometimes they are absolutely complicit in acts of selling their fellow women off as brides, subjugating them and mutilating them. If people weren't being sold for sex, they'd be sold for something else, and not just by men, but by anyone low enough with something to gain. Female pimps are not a rarity, running houses of prostitution is no less exploitative. Not a rare thing to read in the UK news of females in court for plying underage girls with drink and drugs into prostitution. But I suppose a man must have 'made' them do it, right? Not greed, or a complete disregard for those underaged kids, or anything like that.

Quote from: KyloI noticed the OP made the topic further down the page called "internalized transphobia" and reading back over the opening post for that it sounds like your problem is exactly the same still - you don't want to believe you're anything but female, and we do not have the right to call ourselves men. That's your firm belief that you are actively choosing to believe over anything else. And you're waiting to feel male? That does not make much sense to me.

I already acknowledged in the OP that I had already made a similar post but that nothing has really changed and it is still plaguing me.

QuoteWe can't really help you. The problem is being caused in no small part by your own perspective and unwillingness to budge from it, it seems. Some people would suggest seeing a therapist but I know this one has to come from inside yourself and your own philosophy, if any change is going to happen. Either that, or learn to stomach your own philosophy that you are a woman 'playing' a man?

That's what I'm trying to do, but NOTHING that anyone has said on this thread, or in therapy (and yes, I went to gender therapy for a year), or on any site I've read in the 8 years I've been thinking about transitioning has ever managed to convince me that trans men are anywhere close to real men or that I could be one myself.

I'd like to be able to believe that I'm a real man but I still don't see how I possibly could. I was born female. That biological reality can't be changed, no matter how long I take T, no matter what surgeries I get. And that's true of all trans men.

Quote from: Stone MagnumI remember that old post and then I saw this one pop up. A ton of helpful things have been posted both in this thread and the other one and the ongoing problem is that you're wholly unwilling to listen or alter your current perspective in any way.

What makes you say I'm unwilling to listen? I've read every reply to both my threads. It doesn't mean I will agree with what's said though. I can't WILL myself to change my fundamental belief that is based on objective reality just because I WANT to. It doesn't work that way.

Quote

You have one of two options:
1. Continue feeling like a woman playing 'pretend'.
2. Open your ears, listen, realign your perception and possibly derive some enjoyment from your existence.

I can't do #2 in good conscience at this point though, and I really am not sure I ever will be able to. Not because I don't want to, but it goes against my sense of reality. I believe I WOULD have to allow myself to become delusional to pursue #2.

QuoteNothing anyone has said to you has been met with anything but counteraction. You're completely closed off because you want to be in that familiar headspace.

I want to be in a familiar headspace? Where are you getting this from? Why on earth would I WANT to be plagued with this? I don't. Again, just because I don't ENJOY believing what I believe doesn't mean I can change it at the drop of a hat.

You might believe in climate change, for example. But wouldn't it be relieving to NOT believe in it and believe instead that everything is fine and that we are in no danger from global warming? Yes, that would probably be a pleasant belief to have, it would make you happier perhaps, but I'm sure you can't force yourself to believe it.

So I will continue to counter opinions that don't make sense to me. That's kinda the point of this discussion. If you don't want to read my arguments, feel free to view any other thread.

QuoteI feel for you because that has to be a ****** place to be, but you've got to open your mind a bit.
This merry-go-round of 'let's present a question and then violently deflect every helpful response' isn't really doing anything for anyone.

My mind is open. I've considered every single response that's been posted. But that doesn't mean that I will agree with what is said.

I would LOVE to see someone present an argument that could convince me, once and for all, that I and other trans men are "men" and that what we're doing is perfectly sane and that we have the right to say we're men, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

Lately I've been considering stopping my transition, for the sole reason that it'll probably never get me what I really want. Maybe I really WILL try to change my thoughts to embrace the female I was born as. It's never worked in the past, and I've tried many times, but transitioning doesn't seem to be working either.

I feel that I basically have a choice between being a natural female or as a fake male that's really still a female anyway. So it's basically between "pretty female that has biological reality backing her up and can at least perform the acts of femaleness that she was naturally meant for, such as childbearing" or "female that delusionally forces everyone to refer to her as a man even though everyone knows she's not one, that presents as male as soon as you undress her and realize she's female, and therefore will always be stuck in a gray, non-binary, intersex space".

I don't see being a male as an option that is available to me, no matter how much I'd like it to be.

Cool, I'll accept your invitation and check out of reading this thread. Good luck with all that you have going on.

I might've been born with female parts and a female chromosomal makeup, but I look male now. I sound male now. I have a flat chest like a male now. I have a penis, balls, and no vagina or internal female plumbing like a male now. The only thing that would tell you I had ever been female is a karyotype test to look at my chromosomes. I have corrected every piece of documentation to be found about me since my birth. I use men's locker rooms and restrooms and I don't attract a second glance. I interact with people everyday who have no idea and will never have any idea.

Sure, I do feel robbed of a proper childhood and cheated out of typical male coming of age experiences. But am I going to let that hold me back from enjoying the rest of my life as a man? Of course not. I'm 28 years old. I might have had 25 years of unsatisfactory lived experience in a mostly female body, but that's been sorted now and I've got probably twice as many or more years to live and actually enjoy my life.

I don't feel like a fraud. I can understand to an extent why it may feel that way, in the in-between stages, just due to societal understandings of masculinity and whatnot. But I think a big part of maintaining your mental health while transitioning is being able to get to a point where you're comfortable with not conforming and you can move through the world without dwelling on what other people think.

Transition is just that. It's temporary, from point A to point Z. If you haven't gotten to the point where you're comfortable with who you are, then either your transition isn't done or perhaps you shouldn't have transitioned to begin with.

I think you should sit down and figure out what it would take for you to get to a point of comfort with your maleness, and adjust your transition/goals accordingly. If having a penis is end game for you, which it sounds like it is, then good news - you can get one. In the interim, from your original post it doesn't sound like you're entirely happy with your results on T so far. How do your labs look? If your T is low, is your doctor willing to increase your dose so that you'll masculinize more quickly? If you're unhappy with your physique/fat distribution, what is your weight and body fat like? A lot of people seem to have this idea that T will solve all of their body image issues by itself with time, and that's not always the case. Sometimes you have to put in some work to get where you want to be.

Quote from: Bacon on April 12, 2017, 07:26:58 PM
...NOTHING... has ever managed to convince me that trans men are anywhere close to real men or that I could be one myself.

"Anywhere close". As in the fact a passing transman can be indistinguishable from any other man in a crowd, and one with the operations is also not likely to be mistaken for a woman? At best, a passing transman with the ops is the living equivalent of a sterile cis man in functionality. Not biologically - but in terms of getting on with living your life, it's basically the same damn thing. You are splitting hairs and already know it's not helping you, so for your own sake you might want to sort that out. It's entirely possible to hold more than one view of the subject from different perspectives, scientifically and philosophically.   

Quote
I would LOVE to see someone present an argument that could convince me, once and for all, that I and other trans men are "men" and that what we're doing is perfectly sane and that we have the right to say we're men, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

Then how on earth did you embark on transition? You sat and let other people convince you to do something insane?

Nobody here said they ARE a born man. For the purposes of living a life as a man it does not help to sit there thinking you're really a woman. It just doesn't. In fact it probably leads to the state of being "plagued" as you apparently are.

Well, it's your journey and your choice how to think of yourself, but it seems to the rest of us like you make the topic as a cry for help because you struggle with the fact you don't feel you will ever be a man, just a fake one. You have to expect responses directed at correcting the problem, unless you want everyone to just agree that you are a fake man, and go deal with it. It's not anyone's place to convince you. You transitioned for yourself, I assume, without anyone making you do it, in fact it is usually our position to convince the medical professionals that we believe in it as a form of treatment and that we feel more male than female to begin with, and that we are willing to do what is necessary to adapt to that.

This is nothing like the importance of global warming. Ignoring global warming is dangerous with very real repercussions for everyone. Ignoring the past of a female life isn't. Leaving that behind isn't. Living what you feel is best isn't. There is no sensible imperative to constantly remind yourself of something that brought issues, especially if you can get to the point at which it might as well be a figment of the past, for you and everyone else. Other people are able to do it, so it is possible.

It sounds like cognitive dissonance for you at this point, since you are saying this after, what, 9 months on T? Probably not nearly long enough. You are not passing 100% and you are frustrated with that. Understandable. But patience is the name of this game. It can take 5-10 years for all the characteristics to come in. You know this, don't you?

Quote from: Bacon on April 12, 2017, 07:26:58 PM

I would LOVE to see someone present an argument that could convince me, once and for all, that I and other trans men are "men" and that what we're doing is perfectly sane and that we have the right to say we're men, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

Lately I've been considering stopping my transition, for the sole reason that it'll probably never get me what I really want. Maybe I really WILL try to change my thoughts to embrace the female I was born as. It's never worked in the past, and I've tried many times, but transitioning doesn't seem to be working either.

I feel that I basically have a choice between being a natural female or as a fake male that's really still a female anyway. So it's basically between "pretty female that has biological reality backing her up and can at least perform the acts of femaleness that she was naturally meant for, such as childbearing" or "female that delusionally forces everyone to refer to her as a man even though everyone knows she's not one, that presents as male as soon as you undress her and realize she's female, and therefore will always be stuck in a gray, non-binary, intersex space".

I don't see being a male as an option that is available to me, no matter how much I'd like it to be.

...or...you could just be a female born person who decides to dress and appear more masculinely, take on a less feminine name, drop female gender roles for the sake of normalcy, and do what feels natural to you. Nobody said you had to force anyone to see you as male, and if they do and that's not in your pants, so what? You do realize androgynous people get misgendered a lot, too. If you just be comfortable as yourself; woman, "man", whatever, and maybe not try so hard, I think that'd be a really good, helpful option for you. You dont have to give you transitioning to a man a name, just you transitioning to a more comfortable state. It's natural for woman-born individuals to have T, body hair, deep voices, etc. 

You just seem to be in a very hectic state over this, and you need to find something that'll help, you dont have to be delusional to be a masculine individua who looks more malel that was born a woman

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PM
More comfortable in their delusions, maybe. Or just girls that think it's trendy or somehow empowering to say they're guys when they aren't and aren't even trying to live or look like them. Maleness and femaleness will cease to have meaning at all if ANYONE can say they are either without even looking the part.

There is nothing anyone can say that will convince me that maleness and femaleness are not directly, inextricably connected to physicality. When people say that gender and sex shouldn't be conflated, it's pure nonsense. A trans man wouldn't say he identifies with the male gender unless he was thinking of wanting the body of the male sex, or the characteristics associated with the male sex. Gender and sex may not be the same but they have to be extremely closely linked or else maleness and femaleness lose all their meaning entirely. My current opinion is that "gender" is the "sex" you want to be and "sex" is the "sex" you actually are.

Haven't been on in a couple weeks so a bit late to reply, but guess the threads still going. Anyway to get to it, I'm not really sure what your purpose is here. If you're trying to convince yourself or other people that you/us/whoever is delusional or what the purpose is exactly. But regardless, ok let's say that these people you're referring to are "teenage girls comfortable in their delusions" or whatever. So what? Why do you feel so threatened by them? They're making people take trans people less seriously? Really? Focus on what you can control instead of trying to control other people or denounce other people.  And honestly as far as the "seriousness" that people generally take trans people, maybe I'm in a happy little urban Canadian bubble over here, but it's my impression that people in general are more accepting of trans people these days, not less. Unless you're gauging acceptance by whether you're be accepted by a bunch of alt-right pepes or something.

As far as maleness and femaleness. That's something that we see differently for sure. Yes there's a physical component, but there's also a social and self-perception/understanding component, and I suspect that differs from person to person. But considering you've basically said you can't look at it any other way then I won't waste my time with putting my thoughts down on that topic.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMI think these types of people have done more harm than good for the trans community. Many of them are just teenage girls that are playing around with labels to feel different and unique. They think that they can suddenly be men, the holy grail!, as long as they say they are. If society thought we were jokes before, they have much more reason to think it now, with people identifying as demiboys or demigirls or non-binary or insisting on being called he/him even when they present 100% female, etc.

I'm not sure its done any harm to the trans community frankly. Or at least I don't see what the "harm" is. Again, might be speaking from the urban Canadian bubble, but trans people have more legal rights and protections, not to mention more general acceptance than in the past. Are there still problems? Of course, but I'm not sure these folks whoever they may be are the source. Then again I've never heard of demiboys/demigirls. One thing to keep in mind though is that reality of what's happening on the ground isn't always reflected in what's happening on the internet. Online on the rare occasions I venture into ->-bleeped-<- or whatever there seems to be a new gender label popping up every other day, and I think that has to do with the fact that online space provides the anonymity to explore one's identity more than real life. Meanwhile, in real life queer and trans community I've never met anyone who identified with those labels or the 101 new pronouns that apparently exist now because someone online said so.

With that said, in no way does what I said above reflect on how I see non-binary folks. I definitely know non-binary/gender neutral folks in the real world and I 100% stand in solidarity with them. I'd rather show solidarity against such a status quo rather than start in-fighting to tear each other apart. But as I said, I think acceptance is changing slowly, which I think is good.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMThat's why I'm currently in favor of a more honest, logical, realistic, non-delusional approach. I think that I could support other trans men more, as well as myself, if we all just acknowledged the reality of the situation: we're women that want to be men. To deny that we're women, to deny that we're female, to insist that we are 100% male and just as male as any cis guy...to me, it absolutely borders on (if not flat-out characterizes) delusional insanity.

So basically you're saying you might be able to support yourself and other trans guys more if everyone just thought like you? Sorry man, but no cigar. You can go ahead and see yourself as a "woman who wants to be a man" all you want, like I said more power to you if that's what you want or feel most comfortable with, but really you need to stop projecting onto others. I'm not a woman, call me delusional all you want, but I'm not. I have never in my life felt that way. Even before coming out as trans, female I was ok with, but woman was quite different. Definitely know others who feel very similarly. Am I the same as a cis guy? Nope, I'm not the same as a cis guy. As much as I would have wanted it as a kid, I'm not even sure I want to be the same as a cis guy now. That would mean forgetting a lot of life experiences as though they never happened. Does it make me not a guy? Nope, I'm still a guy just a different type of guy, though I'm sure you see that as delusional. "Wanting to be" something to me means striving in some way to imitate. I've never looked to imitate, I've only looked to live my life as I see fit and to feel comfortable in my own skin.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMThere MUST be a logical basis for our claims. Whether it's the male brain thing, or having a male self-image, whatever. To say we "feel" male doesn't cut it. There is no such thing as feeling male. Feeling stereotypically masculine? Sure. Again, not the same thing as being male. There are many, many women that feel more masculine than feminine. They're still not male.

No ->-bleeped-<- man. I come from the butch/femme community so I'm well aware and don't need any telling. Also, having a male "self-image" as far as I'm concerned is just different language for "feeling male." You go ahead and look for your "scientific basis," I'm perfectly happy to live my life instead of justifying myself left, right and centre.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMIt must be about the physical body this person wants. What else COULD it be about?

But then it comes back to "wants" vs "HAS". I don't believe it's enough to just want something and claim you already have it when you don't.

If its only about the physical body, then how do you explain those of us who are happy with just T or just top surgery? Go on, I feel it coming, we're delusional or possibly not really trans, right? We must also be the evil ruiners of the trans image! Quite frankly for me its all about wanting to feel comfortable with my body, my identity and myself. My chest was always something I never wanted to the point that if I hadn't had surgery I may well have gone instead to measures much more harmful than binding to get rid of what was there. It wasn't a "I need to have this chest so I can look like a guy," it was a "I need someone to get these things off me before I chop them off myself." It was utter disgust with a part of my body that I could barely look at. Meanwhile I don't feel as strongly to the idea of T. Maybe one day I'll go on it, but for the past many years I've mostly felt fine without it. Part of that also has to do with having the support of friends and my girlfriend.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMI definitely disagree. Pretty much all the men and women I've ever known act and think in different ways, many of which seem hard-wired. These are men and women from different cultures, backgrounds, upbringings, etc. And if socialization were the only factor, then all of us trans men would think and act more femininely than we naturally do, because that's how we were raised and socialized. Instead, we resist that socialization because our brains are telling us differently.

But if you don't think there are differences in male and female brains, are you saying that you have a female brain and a female body but are a male? If so, if you think you have a female brain, then why do you think you would prefer to have a male body?

I don't really think there are specifically male and female "brains" in such a way that it impacts fundamental thinking. Whether or not trans guys display brain dimorphism more similar to cis men or not, I'm not sure really changes anything for me one way or the other. When I first came out, yeah I was always trying to look for answers about why I was the way I was. At this point I'm not sure I care. My brain is my brain. Maybe its spending so much time in the queer community and/or "heteroflexible" folks, but I know far too much of a diversity in guys with different ways of thinking, women with different ways of thinking, that I don't buy this whole "male and female brain" thing even for cis people. A lot of people look to hetero couples for this whole "men are from mars, women from venus" mentality, as though its the real source of arguments and disagreements. Yet look at any queer couple and they'll have their arguments and different ways of perceiving things and understanding the world that can cause bickering or arguments too. Its a really hetero way of thinking, honestly.

As far as socialisation, there are always people who defy socialisation. If socialisation were a sure fire way to have people turn out a certain way we'd all be heterosexual, all female-bodied people would be ultra feminine and all male-bodied people ultra-masculine. We wouldn't have people who question social or political concepts. Human history and human thought would be static with no difference generation to generation. The reality is people can't be easily pigeon-holed. You can sit there and look for a reason why trans guys are trans guys, but if the "search for the gay gene" or attempts by conservatives to find and eliminate whatever causes tom boys to exist are any indication, it isn't so simple and whatever answers are found won't apply to everyone. Humans and human identity are complex. I'm not gonna pretend to have all the answers.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMI see trans guys as women that want to be guys. Biologically speaking, there is no way that trans guys are already actually guys, and to say otherwise is, again, delusional. Now if we were able to transition fully--hypothetically speaking, let's say that we were able to take T and it would magically remove our breasts, close our vaginas, and give us working penises--then hey, I'd be fine with FULLY TRANSITIONED trans guys saying they're guys. But that's not reality and probably never will be.

Again, feel like you wanna feel about yourself, but you might wanna lay off judging other guys about who they are or how they need to see themselves to meet your pristine sanity "non-delusional" criteria. Also this whole "I'd be fine with..." Why do you think that others' identities, how they should act and perceive themselves should be defined by what you're "fine" with? That's the thing that always gets me, not just with other trans guys like you but folks that take so much issue with trans people. Ultimately, what does it even matter to you as a person? Let people be. I think you expect to be seen as a joke and so you see yourself and others as a joke.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMWhat does it mean to consider yourself a guy though? You knew you didn't have a penis...

Self-image/understanding

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMSo you considered yourself a "person with a penis" even though you knew you didn't have one?

Seems we're just going to go round and round in circles on this one.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMAnd what does it mean to live your life as a guy? It must be about being seen and treated by others as a guy. Otherwise, what does it mean? You go home at night and still know you have a vagina and almost certainly a feminine body besides not having breasts since you're not on T. There are women that have had mastectomies. They're not living their lives as guys though.

For me living my life as a guy means first and foremost living comfortably as myself, and not trying to be something I'm not. I'm aware this seems delusional to you, but to me I'd be more of a "fake" if I pretended to be a woman. Anyway, yes being seen as a guy is a part of it, and I am seen as a guy by my girlfriend and at work. I've mostly worked more physical jobs since I was in my late teens, these are environments that tend to be very hypermasculine. So I'm very aware of how a person is treated depending on whether they're seen as male or female because I've experienced being read as both. Someone read as female entering that environment goes to lift something and I've seen the guys there freak and rush to women's aid for now reason like "you're going to kill yourself," and she basically has to fight and insist just to do her job without some dude hovering around her. Not all cis men react like that, but you figure out pretty fast the ones that do. Its a s*it perception for them to have, this mentality that female-bodied people will break the minute they lift a finger, but as a trans guy who isn't on T it also helps me gauge how people see me. Basically just by doing my job (which requires a lot of heavier work to load/unload the trucks or vans whether from the loading docks or off-site, moving/loading/unloading heavy skids, generally things that take physical strength male-bodied people are associated with having and female-bodied people not) without anyone finding it strange, surprising or alarming helps me gauge how people see me based on their reactions. Besides those general reactions, my co-workers call me by male pronouns, and based on our conversations, s*it they say to me/around me etc. they assume I'm a cis guy with a penis. I do sometimes get new people mispronoun me, but the confusion on my co-workers faces is enough that I'm again able to gauge how they see me. There are a couple guys I suspect might realise I'm trans but it's never come up and hasn't really impacted how we talk to relate to each other. So all that consists of "living as a guy" for me. And I stress, for me, because people are different and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMI don't think this is a good thing. There should be some benchmarks that trans people have to meet in order to belong to single-sex clubs or sports; for example, one year on hormones. How annoying would it be to be a football team of cis guys, for example, that suddenly have to welcome a girl and act as if she's one of them. Suddenly they'd have to accommodate her weaknesses, they wouldn't be able to participate in guy talk anymore, they'd censor their speech, the whole group dynamic would change. Same for a group of women that have to welcome a guy. I think there is value in sex-separated organizations that will be taken away if everything becomes mixed gender.

Again, I think that you have a really one-size, black and white way of seeing things.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMWell, how can I not? How can any of us not? We -are- women living as men. No, I don't want to identify as a woman, but I kinda HAVE to, seeing as I have breasts, a vagina, a uterus, curves, no penis, etc. Those are the characteristics of a woman. I don't get how any of us can deny that.

Yes, it hurts to think of myself as a woman but at least it's REAL. At least it's honest. It's acknowledging the truth, which is a painful truth, but still the truth: I was born with a female body and am now changing it to become more masculine. I still doubt if I'll ever be able to make it "male" though.

And that's why not everything in life is a cold, hard, inflexible science. Modern science has done great things, but the way we perceive the natural world has definitely been shaped by a particular subjective perspective. Facts are facts, but the interpretation of those facts is always all too human. And that may be the difference. I don't consider there to be such a thing as a 100% objective human perception. For example evolution and climate change are at this point fairly irrefutable fact based on scientific method, and yet how governments and societies perceive them, talk about them/portray them, react to them etc. differs. Facts are facts, but we are taught to interpret them and perceive them in ways that reflect society more than anything else.

Also, vagina, uterus, breasts = woman except when it doesn't. I don't want to sound like I'm trivialising the experiences of intersex people, but the reality is that sex for humans and other animals can be a complicated thing. Not every cis man has the physical characteristic of the "archetypal man" (not talking genitals here), and the same goes for cis women. There's a fair amount of diversity in people and scientists have traditionally tried to explain away deviation as "disorders" even when they don't actually harm the person, instead of seeing it for what it is: human diversity. What would you say to a woman who has lived 30 years of her life perceiving herself as a woman, living as a woman only to find out later in life that she has internal testes? Are you seriously going to tell her she isn't a woman? There has been so much screwed up policing of people's bodies over the last 200 years in particular, where society became more concerned with rigid "observation of specimens," categorisation of human beings (and I'm not just talking sex here, but race/ethnicity, physical anomalies, disability, psychiatric "disorders" for everything that defied the norm) that I don't really care to perpetuate that s*it anymore than it already is. You want to look for scientific explanations, go ahead. Don't expect every trans person's identity to ride on it.

Quote from: Bacon on April 04, 2017, 11:06:12 PMIt has nothing to do with what others think or say though. If the entire world started reading me as male TOMORROW, it wouldn't change the fact that I know I'm not. I'd still have to be the one to go home, take off my clothes, and acknowledge that I don't have a male body, and that my life as a man is merely a performance.

Again it's all based on perception. For you living your life as a guy might feel like a performance, you're not alone on that. For me, living as a guy means being myself and its the only thing I know how to do without driving myself totally crazy.

The fact that you are so concerned with how your body looks regardless even of how people read you, that's something I think most of us can relate to. That's how I felt about top surgery in particular. In the end it's not just our bodies, it's not just the social aspect, but to me what it 100% is is self-understanding and self-image regardless of physical or social circumstances. Your dysphoria is one that means you need to see everything about you look physically cis male in order to feel like "not a fraud." Not everyone feels that way, though. It's tough, it definitely is, but I think unpacking your thoughts and learning to understand your dysphoria as dysphoria might help. Trying to figure out the best way to say what I'm getting at, but I think instead of seeing your dysphoria for what it is you're seeing it as evidence of the "undeniable fact" that you can never be a guy. And that being a guy = looking exactly like some kind of cis guy archetype that in and of itself has a lot of variation. Seeing your dysphoria as dysphoria and not just inescapable fact might help you see yourself and your experiences in a new light. Not sure if that's making any sense but anyway.

I think the path you're down now and your line of thinking will only become more self-destructive and serve no other purpose beyond that self-destruction ultimately. Know what you can't change and what you can change, and learn what will make you feel more comfortable in your own skin. Whether that leads to you seeing yourself as 100% male or not, I'm not sure it really matters. Ultimately it's about being good with ourselves.

I know you want some cold, hard answer, but I'm not sure there's any answer in the world that will give you the irrefutable satisfaction you're looking for. From everything you say you seem to want someone to "convince" you, but I don't think anyone can. I think its just down to worldview. Anyway, this post is way too long so apologise for typos and inconsistencies etc. Tried the best I could but at some point you have to stop editing.