Quote from: vicki_sixx on April 17, 2017, 12:39:53 PM
Apologies, I didn't word myself very clearly. What I meantby 'terrified of our feminine results' was that we are terrified that our results won't be feminine enough - that we'll look like some <preconceived, self abhorred image that is unable> to pass as female.

Moderator edit: I think we know what you mean but for some people, an androgynous look that does not pass is what they want. For some, that may be the goal or enough.

 

Topic is locked for some clean up.

Sorry, all. Got distracted and forgot to unlock this.

My bad.

Joanna

Joanna's tag line fits me to a T, it is absolutely perfect. "Changing to be better than I was".

For most of my life the help I needed was anywhere from not there to nearly impossible to either find or afford. Things have changed radically in recent years and I am taking advantage of it. That doesn't mean to me full transition including SRS and passing in public, the medical help came along too late for me for that but I am  "Changing to be better than I was", wonderful long sought changes. Changes that tremendously lessen depression and most feelings of hopeless and trapped. At this point in my life I am grateful for these changes and improvements both mentally and physically.

I'd like to say thanks to the folks on this forum, my education on gender issues has taken a huge leap forward.

My situation was a little bit different and the OP. After I had been on a low dose of estrogen for a few years with small breasts, I actually was diagnosed with a slow but terminal form of cancer. One of the chemo drugs I was on plus the heavy dose of steroids and some of the other medication are well known to cause the side effect of breast enlargement. I thought what the heck and I increased my dosage of estrogen. I feel much better now and I don't even try to hide my fairly nicely sized and shaped breasts because it is a side effect of my medical condition.  I guess I took a bad thing and turned it into a positive thing. As far as the other side effects of estrogen IE softening of skin, redistribution of body fat and gaining mor feminine facial features, they have been slow enough that no one has really made a big fuss over them.

Quote from: Dena on April 09, 2017, 05:58:06 PM

A second consideration is if you give a specific medical condition, you will be lying so it's best to wait until asked and then just say you are on a medication and you prefer not to talk about your medical condition at this time.

Personally I'd argue it is a medical condition.. not to mention for me at least, my hormones were out of wack so that was an incredibly simple reason to tell folks.  Of course they'll notice if you have boobs they kinda poke out & become obvious after a while (Not to mention the whole guarding the front of your chest constantly issue while they're growing). 

I'd just say do what's right / works for you.

Saying it's a medical condition implies it's a disease. Just saying.


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There are many medical conditions that are not diseases but are amenable to treatment.   I'm receiving treatment for one such condition, in the form of anti-androgens and estradiol.  If it wasn't a medical condition my medical insurance would not be covering part of the treatment cost.

If treatment for gender dysphoria in the form of medical transition is not treatment for a medical condition, it becomes something similar to cosmetic surgery, aesthetic medical care.  Insurance plans do not typically cover aesthetic medicine.

I am sure that you could find many different groups eager to assist you in removing transgender care from being considered as treatment for a medical condition.  I would hope that such attempts fail for the sake of many of us driven to transition by issues such as our extreme gender dysphoria. 

I would ask that you please not judge or condemn those of us for whom our gender dysphoria, biochemical distress, and related issues have been classified as medical conditions, for which we are undergoing treatment.  Many of us, including posters on this thread, really do have a diagnosed medical condition, no matter how offensive you may find the idea.

Thank you for your consideration.

I'm not condemning, just commenting on an observation, but I stand by my statement. If we are born like this, I don't accept it as a medical condition per se. It's just another expression of the human condition and it's not fully accepted by society as a whole. If it is an acquired medical condition, then I've been barking up the wrong tree. No judgements here at all, just a difference of opinion. Maybe it's just semantics, but I will say some may infer that if it's medical, it's curable and in a way that isn't what you might think. Then we'll have another round of conversion therapies that focus on different therapies. I can just see gene therapies coming our way. Again, it's just an observation. We deal with this a bit different and that's fine.


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Quote from: Gertrude on June 07, 2017, 08:30:47 PM
Saying it's a medical condition implies it's a disease. Just saying.

Four people go to the doctor's for medical care.  Each has a different insurance carrier who covers their respective treatments. :

One receives a chiropractic adjustment to alleviate some soreness in their shoulder.
One has their semiannual teeth cleaning.
One received a few shots of Botox and some Restylane filler along their lip line.
One has x-rays and gets a cast applied to their broken ankle.

None of these people who receive medical care would be considered to be diseased, and the fact that a particular course of treatment that might be paid for by one insurance carrier doesn't affect whether another may or may not cover it.  And a person who has sufficient resources to pay cash for all of their care could just as easily take any of the treatments without judgment, since they're paying for themselves.  The idea that a treatment is or isn't covered by insurance is not a moral assessment of the procedure or treatment, nor is it a moral assessment of the patient.  It's a shame that we so often conflate assessments of business risk with arbitrary assessments of people. 

Erin

Quote from: Dayta on June 08, 2017, 12:11:47 AM
Four people go to the doctor's for medical care.  Each has a different insurance carrier who covers their respective treatments. :

One receives a chiropractic adjustment to alleviate some soreness in their shoulder.
One has their semiannual teeth cleaning.
One received a few shots of Botox and some Restylane filler along their lip line.
One has x-rays and gets a cast applied to their broken ankle.

None of these people who receive medical care would be considered to be diseased, and the fact that a particular course of treatment that might be paid for by one insurance carrier doesn't affect whether another may or may not cover it.  And a person who has sufficient resources to pay cash for all of their care could just as easily take any of the treatments without judgment, since they're paying for themselves.  The idea that a treatment is or isn't covered by insurance is not a moral assessment of the procedure or treatment, nor is it a moral assessment of the patient.  It's a shame that we so often conflate assessments of business risk with arbitrary assessments of people. 

Erin

I'll leave it like this: nothing personal was intended on my part, but I see I touched a raw nerve. Sorry about that. I just see it differently, which is often the case. I guess I should know better by now.


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Quote from: Gertrude on June 08, 2017, 12:26:56 AM
I'll leave it like this: nothing personal was intended on my part, but I see I touched a raw nerve. Sorry about that. I just see it differently, which is often the case. I guess I should know better by now.

You should be aware that many of us have heard the argument you are making before, as the lead-in to essentially invalidating the existence of transgender persons.  Persons such as Janice Raymond and Germaine Greer have used this as the basis for unfortunately popular exclusionary arguments regarding transgender persons, and many of us who have had to deal with that in our lives tend to react rather strongly when we see discussion here start making the same introductory remarks.

Pursuing that line of argument will directly lead to a violation of the Site Terms of Service item 10, and I would strongly discourage that.

Being transgender is not a pathology, a disorder, or a mental illness, but it is real, and the effect of having a gender identity that does not correspond to our physicality can cause real distress in daily life, and for many of us can be treated medically through medical transition.  Being transgender should not be a diagnosis, but the conflicts within an untreated transgender person certainly can represent a medical condition, physical distress with a proximate cause.

I am undergoing medical treatment for that distress and it's proximate cause.  On completion of treatment my physical presence and gender presentation will match my gender identity, and the distress will be relieved.  I consider that to be a cure.  I will finally be whole and complete.

I am sorry if this doesn't match your world view or is otherwise offensive to you.  I need to do this, and do not appreciate being told that my condition is not real.

Thank you for trying to understand.

Quote from: Michelle_P on June 08, 2017, 12:55:40 AM
You should be aware that many of us have heard the argument you are making before, as the lead-in to essentially invalidating the existence of transgender persons.  Persons such as Janice Raymond and Germaine Greer have used this as the basis for unfortunately popular exclusionary arguments regarding transgender persons, and many of us who have had to deal with that in our lives tend to react rather strongly when we see discussion here start making the same introductory remarks.

Pursuing that line of argument will directly lead to a violation of the Site Terms of Service item 10, and I would strongly discourage that.

Being transgender is not a pathology, a disorder, or a mental illness, but it is real, and the effect of having a gender identity that does not correspond to our physicality can cause real distress in daily life, and for many of us can be treated medically through medical transition.  Being transgender should not be a diagnosis, but the conflicts within an untreated transgender person certainly can represent a medical condition, physical distress with a proximate cause.

I am undergoing medical treatment for that distress and it's proximate cause.  On completion of treatment my physical presence and gender presentation will match my gender identity, and the distress will be relieved.  I consider that to be a cure.  I will finally be whole and complete.

I am sorry if this doesn't match your world view or is otherwise offensive to you.  I need to do this, and do not appreciate being told that my condition is not real.

Thank you for trying to understand.

Don't know why you think I'm pursuing that line of argument, I'm not. In fact mine would be against Greer's argument too, just different than yours. I apologized, but threatening terms of service is petty. In many ways this community suffers from the same tribal elements as any other group in society, so, again, I apologize and I should know better.


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Quote from: Gertrude on June 08, 2017, 01:02:26 AM
Don't know why you think I'm pursuing that line of argument, I'm not. In fact mine would be against Greer's argument too, just different than yours. I apologized, but threatening terms of service is petty. In many ways this community suffers from the same tribal elements as any other group in society, so, again, I apologize and I should know better.

If you have a complete and consistent argument that started with the assumption that a medical condition is not involved, yet does not invalidate transgender identity and supports medical treatment as being necessary for some transgender persons, I would like to see it.  Seriously.  Seeing just a denial that there is a medical condition suggests the only chain of reasoning I know of that starts with that position, one that is exclusionary.

I mention the Terms of Service to avoid having someone try to promote that particular chain of reasoning here, where the community would indeed reject it, and rightly so.

Wow.. All that going back and forth! And little answered really in the end..

A few comments though - while opinions can matter, people with differing opinions should still be able to communicate. It's kinda funny that y'all want to argue over a point that is well accepted in other spaces. But here's a thought, Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is a medical condition - not a disease. It's a medical condition that has no cure, but has an effective treatment.

My opinion? It's a medical issue, one with no real cure, but one that has an accepted treatment. If I'd spent any great amount of time thinking otherwise, I would have ended up consumed by the guilt and shame that seems to eat at many. I've had the treatment I've needed and don't really suffer from the effects of the condition any more.

Quote from: kelly_aus on June 08, 2017, 05:55:21 PM
Wow.. All that going back and forth! And little answered really in the end..

A few comments though - while opinions can matter, people with differing opinions should still be able to communicate. It's kinda funny that y'all want to argue over a point that is well accepted in other spaces. But here's a thought, Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is a medical condition - not a disease. It's a medical condition that has no cure, but has an effective treatment.

My opinion? It's a medical issue, one with no real cure, but one that has an accepted treatment. If I'd spent any great amount of time thinking otherwise, I would have ended up consumed by the guilt and shame that seems to eat at many. I've had the treatment I've needed and don't really suffer from the effects of the condition any more.

For Kelly, medical transition is a treatment for a medical issue.  For me, there is definitely a medical issue (my neuroendocrine system;  chronic high beyond limits levels of cortisol tied to ACTH levels and adrenal dysregulation, and a possibly related prolactinoma, with fMRI data suggesting correction by replacement of testosterone with estradiol!).

Now, someone may approach gender issues as a sociological problem, as in queer theory and some feminist theory, and if it works for them as a rationale, great.  Current treatment for many of us is medical in nature, however, and I suggest that folks be open to there being more than one valid explanation for the existence of transgender people and our need for treatment involving medical intervention.  In my case, for example, simply accepting that I am queer without seeking medical intervention is unlikely to improve my severe discomfort with myself, or correct the endocrine problems.

In my case I do have a medical issue.  My objection is to others arguing that I am l seeking medical treatment because I am not accepting enough of my queerness or similar qualities or by indicating that I have a medical condition am lying to others.  (All real things I have heard in various communities, among many others)

There are many paths.  We should all try to understand that, and accept that what works for one of us is not necessarily going to work for others.  We each have to find our own way.

This is a support site.  I would ask that we do try to support each other, rather than argue that one person's rationale must be accepted by all, or they are not being true to themselves.   When we speak to our thoughts and beliefs, own them as ours, applicable to ourselves, but not necessarily how others must perceive themselves.   Offer our thoughts as something for others to consider, but please refrain from invalidating others.

Quote from: Wild Flower on April 09, 2017, 05:48:30 PM
I have an idea, I want to start transitioning, but I don't want people to think that I am. I rather tell them I have a medical condition that is causing my hormones to act up. That way people will just think, "oh-poor you", and I can continue to transition without people thinking ill of me.

This is because I work in a prejudice environment, and my job is very important... so I would still dress and act masculine.

What do you think of this idea?

Don't do it. It will be 1000 time worse for you if someone finds out your lying. Besides you can start transitioning and hide it for at the very least a year. Depends on the dose and what type of delivery method you use. Pills are usually not as effective, body change wise so if you go the pill route you would get full mental advantages and not a lot of body change.

( just my opinion based on my experience alone )

Only thing I can't hide 100% is my boobs. Dress 100% as a male. Take off my nails. And where a compression top and nobody could tell. And I am a year plus on full dose.


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My point was that being trans isn't a medical condition nor disease. Not any more than being autistic, having blue eyes or being left handed, IMO. If it is, then it implies disorder and conditions that need correcting. If that's the case, then I am in the wrong place. The main problem with being transgender are the social issues that cause the psychological issues. In societies where people like us are or were accepted, it wasn't a problem. In our society, it's easier to change us as individuals to fit a binary expectation that to change society from myself. To make this a medical condition borders on munchausen, IMO.


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Quote from: Gertrude on April 09, 2017, 05:54:12 PM
Shame loves secrets, and that's something all of us can relate to. Maybe it's time for a new job.

And maybe discretion is the greater part of valor.

Quote from: Gertrude on October 04, 2017, 06:54:08 PM
My point was that being trans isn't a medical condition nor disease. Not any more than being autistic, having blue eyes or being left handed, IMO. If it is, then it implies disorder and conditions that need correcting. If that's the case, then I am in the wrong place. The main problem with being transgender are the social issues that cause the psychological issues. In societies where people like us are or were accepted, it wasn't a problem. In our society, it's easier to change us as individuals to fit a binary expectation that to change society from myself. To make this a medical condition borders on

If it is not a medical issue then why must it be covered by public or privately funded insurance. If your are equating the trauma caused by being born transsexual to having blue eyes then l want what you are smoking.