Quote from: ainsley on May 01, 2017, 11:27:29 AM
Because I am a lesbian.  Pretty simple.

That really is simple, which is why I had already alluded to it in my contribution to this post. However, I'm bisexual, and am still femme.

Are you attracted to butch lesbian women, or to femme lesbian women? Nonetheless, thanks for the terse response; sorry to have offended you lol.

K.C.

Well said, bexxyab.

Also, do not confuse gender identity with sexual orientation, femfem.  They are two separate things and one does not drive the other.  I have been married to a woman longer than you have been alive.  Why would I suddenly be forced to stop being with her because I am MTF under your plan?

femfem, all the posts prior to yours explained how stereotypes of what it is to be female are not what makes one female and you drop in here and lay down a stereotypical view of MTF women?  :rollsEyes:

Let's be supportive and understanding about other people's views and perceptions.  I think it is great that you feel the way you do, femfem, and I support your right to, but please avoid denigrating other MTF people when they don't fit your mold.

Quote from: femfem on May 01, 2017, 11:04:08 AM

So, my conclusion is: If you're someone who behaves in a masculine manner, and you expect to stay that way despite potentially transitioning, you'd basically be socially male/masculine and physically female/feminine. That said, do you not experience dysphoria about doing masculine things?

K.C.

My dysphoria was a gender issue. It had nothing to do with hobbies, clothes, makeup or sex with men.

Yes I was socialized for over 50 years as male and these do not change overnight just because I had surgery. All of these attributes which are typically female in nature, may or may not apply to me. Many of my "male" activities are slowly going away as I find a new appreciation for typically female activities. One thing I will say, all of my old activities also had a few women involved as well.

To each their own.

I think that is the key, to each to their own. We may all be trans here but first and foremost we are people, people with hobbies, like and dislikes, having a certain dress style or hobby does not make you a woman it is who you are inside that makes you a woman.

Quote from: bexxyab on May 01, 2017, 11:36:27 AM
First of all, as a trans woman, I thought you would understand the dangers of steryotypes I am not like that, also I do not aim to please men as I am lesbian so yes I am attracted to women but don't act like that. Also, I don't judge but if you form your entire identity around pleasing others that speaks more about you than me. Also, all because I do masculine things does not mean I act in a masculine manner, I can ride a motorbike, get tattoos in a feminine manner. And doing manly things in a manly way does cause me dysphoria I was in the army for 5 months and being forced to act in such a masculine manner made me rock myself to sleep crying every night and I nearly killed myself, several times due to how being forced to act this way made me feel . Also define a good fashion sense I want to rock the biker chick look, which is fashion, fashion is a personal thing to me. And I will develop female mannerisms and a female voice, I still want to be a woman I just enjoy motorbikes and tattoos like many women do. So to conclude yes I may do so-called masculine things but I do them in a feminine way while being a woman.

I've been transitioning for quite awhile, and when you reach my stage, you sort of drop the whole "don't stereotype; it's insensitive" mentality, because you realize how unreasonable it is.

With exceptions, generally, butch-behaving trans woman are lesbian-identified (I was correct there)---and generally, lesbian trans women hit on the femme ones. This is no more dangerous than assuming that a cisgender butch lesbian is into cisgender femme lesbians. That's just how it works generally.

So, when I say that butch trans women have historically hit on me a lot, and have made me feel uncomfortable, it's not a radical statement. I actually no longer attend trans support group meetings because I got sick of this! I want fiends, not partners!

Regarding my attraction towards men driving my progress as a woman, why do you think cis women strive to look so feminine? They're trying to impress men, as well as peers, but largely men. That's kind of the primary reason behind why women tend to act submissive and dress fashionably. If and when they don't do either, they tend to be attracted to the same gender, and therefore only have the desire to behave femininely if they're wanting to attract more butch lesbians. Again, there are exceptions, but this is how it goes generally!

And it's awesome that you'd still socially transition despite liking masculine things. You never know, though---you may become more feminine than you anticipated. I behaved a lot more guy-like before transitioning, not that I went hunting or fixed cars, but I was still somewhat more masculine. Now I'm all-woman. No one can deny that, not even most straight guys, which I tend to date a lot of.

K.C.

Having talked to many women of cis background that is rubbish, surprise most women look nice because they want to look good for themselves not to please others. Also, you must be a bit full of yourself if you think every lesbian trans woman is flirting with you, I just think you are that self-centric that you can't fathom that butch trans women don't all want to get into your pants and if they ever dare talk to a goddess like you they must be flirting, get a life and maybe while you are at it clear that toxic mindset out.

Quote from: Dani on May 01, 2017, 11:49:47 AM
My dysphoria was a gender issue. It had nothing to do with hobbies, clothes, makeup or sex with men.

Yes I was socialized for over 50 years as male and these do not change overnight just because I had surgery. All of these attributes which are typically female in nature, may or may not apply to me. Many of my "male" activities are slowly going away as I find a new appreciation for typically female activities. One thing I will say, all of my old activities also had a few women involved as well.

To each their own.

But "gender" *is* your hobbies, clothes, etc. Obviously, it's other things as well, but gender is largely your identity and your behaviors. Maybe it's sufficient to say that you had dysphoria about your sex, which I can relate to.

Given that a lot of trans women may go so far as to take hormones and get SRS, yet not behave in a feminine manner (by their own submission), it could be said that a great deal of them are actually having dysphoria about their sex more than their gender. After all, genitalia situation = primary *sexual* characteristic, while skin/chest/build = secondary *sexual* characteristics.

Gender is one's way of interfacing with society, as governed largely by their behaviors, obviously. Again, not trying to be intolerant, but when I hear about people wanting to transition yet not adopting feminine behaviors, I actually think of them as being the inverse of some more flamboyant gay men. More flamboyant gay men (with exceptions!) tend to behave very, very girly, but don't undergo HRT to become trans women.

But their identity is that of a gay man because that's how they socialize and interface with the world. What's the identity of a butch trans woman?

Quote from: femfem on May 01, 2017, 12:02:01 PM


So, when I say that butch trans women have historically hit on me a lot, and have made me feel uncomfortable, it's not a radical statement. I actually no longer attend trans support group meetings because I got sick of this! I want fiends, not partners!

Exactly how I feel, except I am 67 years old, financially stable and have little interest in a personal relationship.

Quote
why do you think cis women strive to look so feminine? They're trying to impress men, as well as peers, but largely men. That's kind of the primary reason behind why women tend to act submissive and dress fashionably.
K.C.

Yes, some women seek financial security with their looks. But not all.

Quote
But their identity is that of a gay man because that's how they socialize and interface with the world. What's the identity of a butch trans woman?

A butch trans woman.

Not to be facetious, but that is exactly what they are. I am not. You obviously have no interest. So tell them that!

There's a certain pragmatism to some stereotypes, but they can't be depended on... As many people as there are who don't mind being stereotypical, there are also those who would do the opposite just to buck the stereotype, and also those who won't pay it any attention and just do what they want. Stereotypes serve the purpose of aiding in interpreting the actions of other people when you don't know much about them, it's a surrogate for information, but too many people use it as a substitute for information they already know instead, that's when a stereotype becomes a dangerous insult.

In regards to the OP, your interests do not define your gender, if you are female but like motorbikes and tattoos, then rock that. She is.

The woman who showed me that you don't need to be feminine was my ex. So somehow without doing it consciously she open my mind to the possibility of transitioning.

I'm low on T and high on E for quit some time now. I'm more emotional for the better but also sometimes not so.

I still like (my) cars and I will try to earn enough to keep them. I still like Marvel, Epic (Fantasy) Battles, I drink beer but also wine and champagne. I dress sporty and (business) casual but also classy. Oh I love my marlene trousers. A lot of cis women do the same.

I don't want to be forced from one corner into the other corner by the expectations of others. It feels so good to be able to DGAF about a lot of things.

I,m a trans women who likes nothing more that to just jump on my dirt bikes & forget the crap in your life for a few hours, I have tatoos & multiple piercings you can be a girly trans but be a steel wielder, the biker chick just go for it.

Quote from: bexxyab on May 01, 2017, 12:10:28 PM
Having talked to many women of cis background that is rubbish, surprise most women look nice because they want to look good for themselves not to please others. Also, you must be a bit full of yourself if you think every lesbian trans woman is flirting with you, I just think you are that self-centric that you can't fathom that butch trans women don't all want to get into your pants and if they ever dare talk to a goddess like you they must be flirting, get a life and maybe while you are at it clear that toxic mindset out.

I'm not full of myself (at all), but I do think very differently from the greater trans community because I transitioned almost entirely in secrecy, with exception to my porn endeavors.

I do not think like you; that does not mean I should be alienated or insulted. You should actually embrace and try to metabolize my viewpoints. That's crucial to developing one's identity.

Now , regarding the trans women who have tried to get with me, this isn't me saying, "OMG she looked at me. She must want me sexually!" I'm 23 and am established as an IT professional---and am also legally female and cultured. I don't think like a teenage girl.

Rather, what I'm alluding to is that many trans women have legitimately asked me for my number (which I always complied because I want friends), and later started voicing that they have a crush on me. One identifies entirely as a straight woman, yet she looked me up and down in my yoga pants for the entirety of the 1-hour group meeting. Then she stared at my crotch region (again as I'm wearing yoga pants) long and hard, as I walked off the the restroom to collect myself. I felt scrutinized as can be, and *then* she approached me after the meeting, and essentially chatted me up. I got home and had a FB friend request from her. That's not at all how cis women treat me.

One more example: I went to a party last summer, dressed as a school girl. Largely, guys had been approaching me all night long, and I even made out with one. However---literally as I was making out with that guy---a trans woman tapped on my shoulder and asked me what my name was. I told her, and she sat down on the other side of me and told me she found me very attractive and wanted to buy me a drink. Again, this was a trans woman, and it was evident to everyone because she didn't pass. Now, here's the real kicker: She didn't know I was trans too until I told her. To her, she was approaching a pretty girl (because she likes them), and the girl just so happened to be trans.

Thus, of course lesbian trans women have tried to get with me. You can't really spin my experiences any other way. This is not me being fill of myself

K.C.

I think you are massively confused gender is your identity so if someone walks, talks and acts in a feminine way and they choose to identify as a woman well guess what, they are a woman. Also, describe a feminine 60-70 years ago it was un-lady like to go out and get a job, never marry. But things have changed there is not a stereotypical woman, women come in all different ways from women who enjoy "manly things" to the polar opposite, a blonde princess who loves everything pink and is extremely vain.Also to say that people don't act as what you call feminine don't have gender dysphoria only have a problem with their genitals is not only backward but extremely dangerous.

Come on you can't think someone asking for your number just wanted to be your friend. Also, the other straight women might have done that out of sheer curiosity, you obviously have been trans for a while maybe curiosity to if she would ever look like that and be able to pull yoga pants off.That last one whats wrongs with someone asked to buy you a drink not the right time, but you just so no thanks and that is the end of you and her not knowing you are trans, what has that got do with a trans girl asking you out?

Quote from: femfem on May 01, 2017, 12:29:15 PM
I'm not full of myself (at all)...

Yes, you are.

Quote from: femfem on May 01, 2017, 12:29:15 PM
I'm 23 and am established as an IT professional---and am also legally female and cultured.

No, at 23 you are not established professionally in IT.

Quote from: femfem on May 01, 2017, 12:29:15 PM
I don't think like a teenage girl.

Yes, you do.

Quote from: femfem on May 01, 2017, 12:29:15 PM
This is not me being fill [sic] of myself

K.C.

Yep, I am afraid so.

You could not be more off from reality for trans women.  You are who you are, but you are siloed in your thinking and perceptions and should stop  making generalizations and broad sweeping assessments.

I love to be cleaned up and looking as best I can, but I still love My cars and gaming, and working out doors. I definitely don't worry about what people think of these things, I am proud of it

Stereotypes are not that helpful. Human brains often strive for short cuts but lose the nuances and diversity that makes the world great. I know a lot of tomboy type women and also very femme women that do what are traditionally very male things.

I mountain climb and play football. There has been some masculine-sterotype things that i have lost interest in but that is just my evolving interest.

Yeah and sexuality and gender expression/identity are vastly different things. Women do not usually dress for men, we dress for ourselves. Do we want to look good? certainly but letting other people dictate how you express yourself get's really old.

I've a feeling I have a different view on these things.

My primary goal in all this is not to be a woman, but to stop all the crazy and be happy. My secondary goal is to be a woman because that whats I believe I am and how I can meet my primary goal.

So far so good, but if I find otherwise it doesn't really matter as long as I'm going in the right direction and getting happier. Its a matter of exploration and seeing how I feel as I go along until I reach a point of optimum happiness.

I've no issue with having male interests because I do have male interests. Its who I am and I'm not going to change that because of other people. If that makes me less a "women", even if that's a matter of opinion, its not important because being a woman is not really the point of all this.

I feel its important to separate the social pressure I feel to conform from who I actually am. There's been significant internal generated social pressure to be cis, but that's a lost cause at this point. I still present male after 8 years on HRT so I don't get any social pressure from others, but not really happy about the hiding all the time.

I can't say how I feel presenting and being treated as female since I've not experienced it yet. Its going to be a bit awkward if I find I'm non-binary and need to present that way because I'm sure I'd find that social pressure very difficult to deal with. I'd still accept it as my identity though.

I've certain feelings that I find validating as female. That's good because it shows me I've done the right thing, and I'm going in the right direction. It makes me happy.

I think that is the thing a stereotype is fine until you know different and if you don't amend that after you realize that stereotype is wrong then it is bigoted. I also think that DGAF attitude is the best as if you just conformed to society standards I think life would be very boring indeed. Also totally agree with you that jobs and hobbies don't define you, a more butch trans woman might work as a makeup artist while a girly trans women might work in construction, it is not your hobbies or job that define your gender but what you feel.

You do what make you happy anonyMs that is all that matters. I agree stereotypes are for the lazy, to learn about an issue eradicates those stereotypes and that shoe boxing. I think what 99% of people are saying is that they do them and DGAF about what others think which is great because screw stereotypes and shoe boxing.