Quote from: RobynD on May 26, 2017, 01:04:58 PM
I actually find my largest base of support coming from cis-women friends. These women, younger and all in their 20s and 30s have been a huge thing for me.

Really? I'm deadly scared of cisgender women "turning against" me once I transition. I've always considered them my allies and friends, while presenting as a gay man, but I'm afraid this could change once my appearance changes.

Quote from: Ypsf09 on May 26, 2017, 11:40:05 AM


Abrasive? Is that what one becomes for living in reality and not supporting others delusions ? Anyways I am referring to my other post since you brought it up.

Are you implying that people with gender dysphoria are delusional?

Quote from: Michelle_P on May 26, 2017, 12:46:40 PM
Oh, you primates!  Group aggression led by a high-status member against a perceived weaker member is really common among primates and some other mammals, particularly rhesus macaques and humans, as well as wolves.

In general, the high-status member initially is probing a newcomer for any signs of weakness.  The newcomer may counter at a similar level, demonstrate submission and surrender, or even flee.  The signs of weakness such as fleeing invite pursuit, and the dominant primate and their supporting band will tend to escalate their abuse.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beyond-bullying/201309/animal-rites-what-animal-behavior-teaches-us-about-bullying

The behavior tends to be self-propagating as well.   Recipients of abuse often become abusers themselves.  This has been demonstrated with physical abuse across generations, and within group dynamics.   Persons who have been marginalized by the larger social body often congregate and in turn marginalize others who they themselves see as weak or 'inappropriate' in some way.

In a recent example of this, I witnessed a large social support group for transgender folks go through this process.  (Not a group I normally associate with, but one that has hosted large benefits in the recent past.)  The majority of the group members consider themselves to be cross-dressers.  A handful of members went beyond this, seeking medical intervention and surgery.  They were marginalized, and recently forced out of the group as being unacceptable to the rest.

Humans tend to be slightly better at longer term planning than other primates, and their abusive behaviors may be more subtle.  This is pretty ugly stuff to have to face, but it is real, and definitely out there.

As rational beings we all need to recognize this behavior in ourselves and others, and rise above the for the long term benefit of all.  Just because someone lives their life differently than you do, or has different experiences and background,  does not invalidate their existence, their need for support, their basic need for social contact.  They are still people.

Welcome to the human race.  It's not a competition.

You'd like Robert sopolsky's work with neuro biology/genetics/sociology/psychology.


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Quote from: Charlie Nicki on May 26, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
Really? I'm deadly scared of cisgender women "turning against" me once I transition. I've always considered them my allies and friends, while presenting as a gay man, but I'm afraid this could change once my appearance changes.

This was my fear, but it turns out that cis-women, at least at work, have been the most accepting and lovely people to me.  If anything, I suspect that there has been a stronger correlation between acceptance and social-economic class than gender or even age, for that matter.  I'm only 3 weeks out to the world, so it's a pretty small sample to analyze.  Based upon my experiences it'd probably be surprising not to find some surprises in how people respond versus one's expectations. 

Erin

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on May 26, 2017, 03:35:25 PM
Really? I'm deadly scared of cisgender women "turning against" me once I transition. I've always considered them my allies and friends, while presenting as a gay man, but I'm afraid this could change once my appearance changes.

This really depends. What I might say may be a bit controversial but many women (not at all, of course) feel less threatened by gay men than by other women or straight men. They know gay men don't want them, which takes off the huge pressure of accidentally friendzoning a male friend or receiving sexual advances from one and having to reject him, and they also can talk about men and know that the gay friend does not pose a threat to dating prospects, as the men who like women won't be attracted to him and vice-versa. The problem is that many women are insecure and once you start transitioning, if your appearance changes enough so you become attractive, it can be a huge bucket of cold water in her face.

Imagine this, you start getting noticed, hit on, who knows maybe even more admired than some of your friends, your friend has to accept that you as a "male born" person can just be as attractive or pretty or even more. It's not right, but many will see it this way which can really put the friendship on thin ice. Of course, a good friend (needs to be confident too) will adapt to these changes and be happy for you. Ohers will begin to think of you as competition, so be ready to face the same female passive-aggressiveness women experience in their daily lives.

Quote from: Aurorasky on May 27, 2017, 03:55:41 AMThe problem is that many women are insecure and once you start transitioning, if your appearance changes enough so you become attractive, it can be a huge bucket of cold water in her face.

Imagine this, you start getting noticed, hit on, who knows maybe even more admired than some of your friends, your friend has to accept that you as a "male born" person can just be as attractive or pretty or even more. It's not right, but many will see it this way which can really put the friendship on thin ice. Of course, a good friend (needs to be confident too) will adapt to these changes and be happy for you. Ohers will begin to think of you as competition, so be ready to face the same female passive-aggressiveness women experience in their daily lives.

Hear hear! (once again I find myself agreeing with you, we should share more stories )

I would even go so far as to say that this behavior is wide-spread amongst women in general, trans and cis. The moment you're good looking, you start posing a threat. You can get the men others want, you start to become the 'competition' instead of the 'friend-zone'. Furthermore, I have the feeling women tend to become a bit more jealous in these kinds of situations than men.

Not all of us are like that, but I really have the feeling we as transwomen might be even more jealous of one another than women in general. We're all coming from a place which we hate, most of us transition and we end up somewhere along the spectrum of female beauty. Some get closer to what society thinks beauty is, some develop their own androgynous mystique (which I find VERY attractive by the way!) and some will look like transwomen 10 years after finishing their transition. Not all of us want to go all the way, but those who do and don't get there might end up being jealous of those who're getting there faster or are getting farther. That's inherent to being trans, it has a fair amount of luck and privilege attached to it. Same goes for everybody else by the way.

I've been to a couple different support groups, each in different stages of my transition. Two of the three groups I've seen were dominated by older transwomen, who didn't get passing privilege. After those groups, I was lucky enough to find a couple of trans-friends, all my age (late twenties, early thirties), all transitioning at the same time. As with the world at large, some got lucky, while others did not. When I started attending these meetings, I was the 'last one on the list', just starting therapy again, no HRT yet.

(Quick note on my backgrond: my story is a long one, I've basically transitioned when I was 23, living as a woman for 5 years, then detransitioning for 1,5. I wanted to be sure). In any case, when I found that group it was at the end of the 1,5 years detrans-phase, and my 'second transition' took off like a runaway train. The end of the story was that I got to my legal name change sooner than them, same as for my passing privilege and my SRS. As I got further into it, my contact with them worsened. I started being ignored, a clique formed which more often than not excluded me, and in the end drew back into my stealth-life, only seldomly attending their meetings.

Their behavior was much the same as what I get from cis-women who seem me as a threat now. The passive-agressive grin, those little, smiling but not friendly eyes. The stares, and then the turning around and finding somebody to talk to about you. The scans, from top to bottom. Even then, I wouldn't change this for the world. Somehow, I can cope with this. Not that I like passive-agressiveness, but yeah. It's a part of our collective experiences, even though I dispise it when we practice it, it's also not something that can totally be avoided.

Well... I do select my friends based on this kind of behavior though. I find that groups in which this happens less, the internal cohesion is much stronger. Passive-agressiveness isn't just a way of dealing with frustration, it's born out of individualism. The notion of being more deserving of something, it's the female version of macho behavior. Only they don't flaunt it in your face, they flaunt it in the faces of your acquaintences, turning them against you.

Good thing is, I'm 31 years old now and wise enough to see through this kind of b*llsh*t

I have experienced this type of passive aggressiveness in  trans support groups too. I wouldn't take it personally though, it's mostly their own issues that they are projecting.  A lot of non passing transwomen can't stand the sight of a cute feminine  passable one. It brings out a lot of anger/resentment in them which they can't control. Other than that there is also the issue of commonality. One time I went to a support group with all white non passing transwomen. Most of them identified as straight men before and had wife and kids. We had nothing in common so it was a very neutral experience for me.

And one time I ran into a very passable beautiful  tgirl at a surgeon's office in LA, we hung out and become very good friends. She had no issues with me as she was very secure and happy with her own self. She looked amazing, had a great job/career, handsome boyfriend.

Sorry to hear about your poor experience Rebchan...  I guess when you get around a bunch of catty girls, it's going to happen at one point of another.  Well, don't give up.  There are more understanding people out there than judgmental ones.  Not all groups are created equal...  Luckily, the understanding ones that you were looking for probably also left and made a new group where that kind of behavior isn't tollerated.

Quote from: Riya88 on May 27, 2017, 03:58:40 PM
I have experienced this type of passive aggressiveness in  trans support groups too. I wouldn't take it personally though, it's mostly their own issues that they are projecting.  A lot of non passing transwomen can't stand the sight of a cute feminine  passable one.

I think that is an over generalization as well as often a misinterpretation...

That said  less than stellar behavior and misunderstanding the other's motives and more  happens on both sides... 

More than a few young good looking TSes have been known to denigrate and deny the identity of those who did not pass so well  (particularly if they are late transitioners) ... typical "mean girl" behavior.

That said all that is at it's worst when people are relatively early after transition... From what I've seen, after a decade or so, much of that (but not all)  tends to die down on both sides...

Regardless of looks or age, we tend to be at our most insecure (and so less tolerant of differences) early on...

I think as we become more confident and accept ourselves and our individual realities (be it optimal or not), we tend to be more open to understanding where others are coming from, and more able to see then commonalities beyond the differences.

Going through this is still a relatively unique  journey  "changing sex" compared to that of most people... And that is one reason even some who have been stealth for decades tend to come to places like this on-line, at least once is awhile.

Maybe that puts some perspective on all of this.

- karen

My experience with support groups has been well received.

I have 3 local. 
One is mainly Trans men, fairly small group. 
One is mainly Trans women, about 20-30 regulars. 
One is a mixture of both and has a lot of Trans youth (boy/girl in schools still), about 40-50 at times. 
All of these have some allies male and female and parents.

I have lived for the most part stealth of my 40 years since transition, except for family and work where I transitioned.

I give as much support as I can on how things were in the dark ages of TG/TS.  Cannot give advice on HRT/therapists/doctors/clinics/family issues or such, as my past is so different from others now.

I once asked if my presence and past is a problem.  Most say they enjoy having me around as it does give them hope for a life long experience.

I do find some in the TG/TS area, that are not part of these groups, that have that holier than thou attitude.  Especially on the ones that are/were Gay men, or entertain as Drag performers.

I think TG/TS people are no different that the general population, in that we have prejudices.  Some of this has gotten worse with the election of our last president.  Supporters and non-supporters from each side.  Had one person suggest joining with the Log Cabin Republicans, and was resoundingly booed.

Quote from: Georgette on May 28, 2017, 01:55:28 AM
My experience with support groups has been well received.

I have 3 local. 
One is mainly Trans men, fairly small group. 
One is mainly Trans women, about 20-30 regulars. 
One is a mixture of both and has a lot of Trans youth (boy/girl in schools still), about 40-50 at times. 
All of these have some allies male and female and parents.

I have lived for the most part stealth of my 40 years since transition, except for family and work where I transitioned.

I give as much support as I can on how things were in the dark ages of TG/TS.  Cannot give advice on HRT/therapists/doctors/clinics/family issues or such, as my past is so different from others now.

I once asked if my presence and past is a problem.  Most say they enjoy having me around as it does give them hope for a life long experience.

I do find some in the TG/TS area, that are not part of these groups, that have that holier than thou attitude.  Especially on the ones that are/were Gay men, or entertain as Drag performers.

I think TG/TS people are no different that the general population, in that we have prejudices.  Some of this has gotten worse with the election of our last president.  Supporters and non-supporters from each side.  Had one person suggest joining with the Log Cabin Republicans, and was resoundingly booed.

Yeah, there's an unwritten rule that people in the LGBT circles are/will be left wing progressives. It's interesting because as a group we've been marginalized and excluded because we're different, and yet there's the same undertow of conformism in this group and on different levels. Could be politics, could be internal standards of expectations that are influenced by the society that excludes us. Because I have the impression that we're probably smarter on average than the average bear in society, we'd recognize this, but the desire and tendency to believe over know exists as it does anywhere else. Like most groups, there's always going to be some sort of of suspension of disbelief if you want to be a member or at least one of good standing. To that end, I've unsubscribed from group political and religious beliefs, leaving open the option that I'm a a member of the human race and even then I have my doubts. channeling Albert Ellis, musterbation is a cause of most of our problems groups feed into it, to crush the individual, whether it's the family unit or larger groups, but that's another subject altogether...


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Quote from: Dayta on May 27, 2017, 02:17:46 AM
If anything, I suspect that there has been a stronger correlation between acceptance and social-economic class than gender or even age, for that matter.

My therapist also told me that. But he also said this that Aurora said:

Quote from: Aurorasky on May 27, 2017, 03:55:41 AM
The problem is that many women are insecure and once you start transitioning, if your appearance changes enough so you become attractive, it can be a huge bucket of cold water in her face.

Imagine this, you start getting noticed, hit on, who knows maybe even more admired than some of your friends, your friend has to accept that you as a "male born" person can just be as attractive or pretty or even more. It's not right, but many will see it this way which can really put the friendship on thin ice. Of course, a good friend (needs to be confident too) will adapt to these changes and be happy for you. Ohers will begin to think of you as competition, so be ready to face the same female passive-aggressiveness women experience in their daily lives.

I am not really worried about close female friends turning against me. I don't think that could happen, what actually worries me is acquaintances, female coworkers, etc... People I interact with on a daily basis who are all super friendly to me at this point, they smile at me, are nice to me, etc...Which doesn't happen as much to my female peer who sits right next to me (though to be fair she's kind of difficult sometimes). Sometimes I feel like those differences between her interactions and mine have to do with our personalities, in which case I'll be fine, but other times I just feel like it's simply because she's a woman and they tend to be harder on each other.



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Quote from: Karen_A on May 27, 2017, 07:01:52 PM
I think that is an over generalization as well as often a misinterpretation...

That said  less than stellar behavior and misunderstanding the other's motives and more  happens on both sides... 

More than a few young good looking TSes have been known to denigrate and deny the identity of those who did not pass so well  (particularly if they are late transitioners) ... typical "mean girl" behavior.

That said all that is at it's worst when people are relatively early after transition... From what I've seen, after a decade or so, much of that (but not all)  tends to die down on both sides...

Regardless of looks or age, we tend to be at our most insecure (and so less tolerant of differences) early on...

I think as we become more confident and accept ourselves and our individual realities (be it optimal or not), we tend to be more open to understanding where others are coming from, and more able to see then commonalities beyond the differences.

Going through this is still a relatively unique  journey  "changing sex" compared to that of most people... And that is one reason even some who have been stealth for decades tend to come to places like this on-line, at least once is awhile.

Maybe that puts some perspective on all of this.

Couldn't agree more. Insightful! As you noted, I think the main points are:

- Differences in experience, motivations, starting point, circumnstances, age. Its pretty understandable that the more different, the more difficult is to empathize.

- Being insecure, self-centered, anxious at early transition may worsen or even impair our capacity to empathize with others.

Some older transwomen can also be mean to younger girls. They can be very dismissive of younger girls who started transition at a young age and even insinuate that because they didn't have a lot of the struggles late transitioners do, they don't know what it is to be trans or even that they aren't truly trans.

Myself I would never dismiss anyone's struggle regardless of age or what they look like. That's just messed up and really mean.

Quote from: Charlie Nicki
Sometimes I feel like those differences between her interactions and mine have to do with our personalities, in which case I'll be fine, but other times I just feel like it's simply because she's a woman and they tend to be harder on each other.

I think it has more to do with personality, or at least, I think if any threat is perceived it can be eased through personality, friendly interaction and cooperation.

When it comes to female (trans or not) circles, I think it is important to establish basic rules: avoiding competition, not taking advantage over others, cooperation to improve and level-off status between members, etc. Common sense, so to speak.

For example, if you receive unsolicited advantage, when possible you share it with your peers, or you help your peers to be able to get that advantage in the future.

Quote from: Cimara on May 28, 2017, 02:40:59 PM
Some older transwomen can also be mean to younger girls. They can be very dismissive of younger girls who started transition at a young age and even insinuate that because they didn't have a lot of the struggles late transitioners do, they don't know what it is to be trans or even that they aren't truly trans.

What it means to be trans is t have your identity questionably some *IF* they know... and it often means trudging to accept one self because of societies reactions regardless of age of transition...

But the experience can be HUGELY different depending on age, circumstances ... and looks (independent of passability) as of course the biggest one passability itself ... I think that is undeniable...

There are commonalities beneath those differences... but they can be be very hard to see, particularly early in transition... and that is the time we tend to hurt each other most because of the differences.

During the early years of my transition (I started the process in 1994) I meant a lot of TSes in person between some support groups and meeting people I met on-line... I would guesstimate  somewhere between 100 and 200.

But I only met one who started transition in her early teens and strangely it was while having FFS with DR. O. in San Francisco in 1999...

She was a young women in her early 20's from France who had transitioned with the support of her family in her early teens ... but initially without HRT and she was there for FFS...

While we were both recovering we spent a day together sightseeing in the city ... I will say she seemed a lot less 'damaged' emotionally than I was... I did not see her face before the surgery, but even swollen as we both were, I could tell she would not have any issues with passing for the rest of her life.

Maybe I did feel a bit of envy or maybe a little sorry for myself, but it did not affect my interactions with her. She was very nice and we had a pleasant day together.

I find it hard to imagine that any TS would be mean to her or begrudge her anything... she was very nice and in no way did I feel she was putting me down or feeing she was more "female' etc... From my side I was just curious about her experience because it was very different from mine.

- Karen

I can't say that the group I am in, in Seattle is anything other than what I make it. Which means stop being an introvert and contribute to the group. I have found no problems with being listened too. My biggest disconnect is that most of them are city dwellers and I live in the remote suburbs where things are accepted a little differently. We have anywhere from 40 to 60 participants each week. I really thought I would hear a lot about passing but it seems most of the members would rather be accepted for whom they are rather than portraying the perfect woman or man. Oh yeah, You gotta learn restraint as the others are just as interested in their perspective. It does make it easier when there are common rules that are enforced. Courtesy is always welcome. My work experience is trying to dissolve the silo's at large companies. Where every department has it's own little fiefdom. It's the same thing here. It's easier when the meetings have a posted agenda. Things don't seem to run off the rails so much. Also mingling after meetings or before helps to see people in social situations where they may let their guard down and be more open.

The trans support groups operated by my HMO separate the younger transitioners into a different group than the older ones.  This might be why I'm not seeing the sniping here.  There are different issues each group faces that may be hard for those of a different age range to accept.

It a sort of deliberate siloing, I suspect.