Here's the thing -- what is the point of transition?  There's no one answer to this.  For me, though, the point was to be gendered female, by myself and others.  Because male gendering was going to lead to a very bad place.  So.

So, my plan was to transition socially after addressing my passing issues -- facial hair, facial structure, and voice.  These are the still the baseline things almost all of us need to do to get female gendering.  Though, as Karen points out, there's still a lot of socialization to catch up on and develop.  It still takes the baseline passing issues, though, to even get that opportunity!

Hormones didn't do very much for me in this respect. Good thing, then, I started electrolysis and voice retraining immediately, and started raising money for the facial surgery, which happened about 16 months into transition.

But in the meantime, what do we do?  Because I tell you, once I committed to getting female gendering, that made the attendant dysphoria with the male gendering I was getting so much worse.  So of course I had to transition socially, as soon as possible, in as many social milieus as possible.  I did manage to have the restraint to not transition on the job until all financing was secured, but everywhere else I was just me.  Just me.  And that is such a relief.

It makes sense, very good sense, to pass first and then transition.  And a tremendous amount of discipline.  Even so, it's going to be messy, there will be mistakes, but this is to be expected when it comes to learning something.  But don't worry -- as the word suggests, transition itself is temporary. 

Muddle through, move on... and live a woman's life.

i think it depends on the person.  I wanted to wait until I had most of my facial hair gone to go fulltime, but at 9 months I did with about half my beard left.  My dysphoria was more social than physical and decided to just do it, shave everyday, and be ok with looking trans.

For me, it was never a requirement in my eyes.

My best friend who is cis-female, who guided me in the world of female, always treated me as a girl when I was dressed. She showed me a lot of social queues or things women just know.. you like.. how to sit when wearing a skirt.. I never noticed before sitting a woman always brushes her hand down her skirt before sitting on a chair to stop creasing.

When I was full time.. well that became permanent.. I never really made any other female friends before I went full time due to my shyness.. full time seemed to solve this. I learned quickly to socialize as one of the girls.

I pretty much came out way before. I can get by pretty well if I put a lot of effort in makeup and so on. Initially I wanted to wait until 6 month on HRT but then people started noticing and asking about all the  changes, so I ended up just going for it. Might also make it easier while I am still in this awkward in-between stage...

Most of us don't pass.  Given enough attention, the anatomic features associated with our natal sex are noticeable.  Some of this can be mitigated by hormones or surgery, but much of it is permanent, at least for those who transitioned in adulthood. 

Fortunately, most people we interact with either aren't on the lookout for our cross gender traits or don't really care about them if they notice. 

Passing, like beauty, is a combination of genetic privilege, practice and self-confidence.  We can all benefit from the latter two, but considering passing to be a prerequisite for various aspects of gender transition is a form of self harm.  Take care of yourself first and foremost.  What others think affects us, but shouldn't control us.

Quote from: tgirlamc on May 30, 2017, 01:19:32 PM
You look gorgeous!!!... I think for you the battle of "passing" is going to prove to be more internal than the external... All will be well my friend!!!

Onward we go brave sister!!!

Ashley

Thank you Ashley, that was so nice.  Lots of internal battles to contend with. lol

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on May 30, 2017, 01:43:31 PM
Girl...what the heck are you even talking about? That picture screams WOMAN to me, and I'm not saying this to make you feel better; I honestly believe it, if I didn't I would just remain silent about your pic. I agree with tgirlamc, the struggle is mostly in your head, if that was a year and a half ago and you are still taking hormones, you probably look even prettier and more feminine now. You have to do your social transition ASAP, what are you waiting for?!

Thank you, I still don't see female, just the male traits in myself.  I guess every photo and reflection remind of who I was before hrt.  lol, thank you but I'm far from pretty or feminine looking.   

Quote from: Karen_A on May 30, 2017, 06:04:44 PM
You look like the sister of Agent May of Agents of Shield!

That is such a great show!  And May, she just kicks so much butt!

Quote from: ElizabethK on May 30, 2017, 06:39:40 PM
Ok so who is the woman in the picture...ahhhh its you!!...You look great in that 6 month old picture...Would love to see an updated picture?

Thank you.  I wish I had a bit more confidence about these things but personally, I think I look awful.  (Sorry, I meant to say that the picture is with 1.5 years hrt.  I'm currently at 2+ years hrt.)

Quote from: Dena on May 30, 2017, 04:17:25 PM
It's more difficult to pass with your hair pulled back instead of surrounding your face however you can pull off either look. You are ready to go full time whenever you want.

I have no idea what I should do with my hair since it's still somewhat short but I've noticed that hair makes such a huge difference in how people are gendered. 

Quote from: RavenMoon on May 30, 2017, 07:13:44 PM
For me, I'm not going full time until I look the way I want. If I can't get to that point, I won't go full time. For me all my dysphoria is centered around my face.

I feel the same way about going full time. 

Anyway, I didn't expect so this post would actually get any attention so I just want to thank everyone for sharing their insights and experiences.  This thread has been enlightening and a bit depressing in a way but also uplifting in the way that you raze and destroy, then rebuild, starting with a stronger foundation.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on May 31, 2017, 06:08:50 AM
So, my plan was to transition socially after addressing my passing issues -- facial hair, facial structure, and voice.  These are the still the baseline things almost all of us need to do to get female gendering.  Though, as Karen points out, there's still a lot of socialization to catch up on and develop.  It still takes the baseline passing issues, though, to even get that opportunity!

I agree that having electro done, some work on voice and being on HRT for awhile really a minimum to have a chance at starting to get female socialization....

But your list is a very tall order for more than few... and life is short...

You include FFS (facial structure), something that  many can't afford it on a reasonable timeline.

Also I think it's difficult (too say the least) for most to get voice down WITHOUT being full time...

Also while HRT results can be subtle they still matter a lot too...

My HRT results were pretty minimal in terms of my overall shape (next to no breast development, fat did not go to my hips and back side) and I have big frame- broad shoulders, wide chest etc... yet after about a year on HRt with an androgynous hairstyle dressed as male I was often taken as female my strangers- it surprised the heck out of people with me did not realize the slow change.

My point was not that no work was required up front, but that few will pass 100% from day 1 full time no matter how hard they try... It does take experience to ground down the rough edges... experience that i hard to get switching back and forth.

I understand the fear for some in taking that step (I had it in spades) ... but getting stuck waiting for everything to be perfect can be crazy making...

Once one gets to a reasonable point, particularly if one is not likely to fired (most these days I think try to transition on the job initially), waiting for (perceived) perfection can be counter productive ... of course all that is IMO.

- Karen

Quote from: Karen_A on May 31, 2017, 06:38:19 PMBut your list is a very tall order for more than few... and life is short...

You include FFS (facial structure), something that  many can't afford it on a reasonable timeline.

Also I think it's difficult (too say the least) for most to get voice down WITHOUT being full time...

Also while HRT results can be subtle they still matter a lot too...

Yeah, I really should include HRT.  It does, over time, smooth out some rough edges (especially around the face), and some breast growth is better than none at all.  More important, though, imo, are the psychological effects -- in particular, estradiol and progesterone have really made me much more emotionally open, both in terms of social engagement and self reflection, and that's also so very important when it comes to socialization.

But yes, my list is a tall order.  Which is fair -- passing is a tall order!  Sadly, I think it's still true for most transitioners these days, for there's still so very many more of us who are long past our teenaged years.  If you want to pass in the long-term, it's going to take all three.  Well, four, including HRT.

Then, let the transsexing begin.

QuoteMy point was not that no work was required up front, but that few will pass 100% from day 1 full time no matter how hard they try... It does take experience to ground down the rough edges... experience that is hard to get switching back and forth.

I understand the fear for some in taking that step (I had it in spades) ... but getting stuck waiting for everything to be perfect can be crazy making...

Once one gets to a reasonable point, particularly if one is not likely to fired (most these days I think try to transition on the job initially), waiting for (perceived) perfection can be counter productive

This is also a very good point -- and to be clear, I'm not advocating perfection.  And I'm not talking 100% passing on Day One, either, because that's just not going to happen -- even if your presentation is flawless, there will be people on Day One who know your story, and just aren't going to be able to see beyond their own memories.

But I do think one can reasonably identify the crucial components to passing and make significant changes in one's presentation before going full time in such a way as to minimize (not eliminate) the amount of misgendering one receives at that point, and hence the amount of dysphoria and subsequent heartache one has to endure during transition itself.  And I still think it's a wise decision to do so before coming out at work. 

QuoteAlso I think it's difficult (too say the least) for most to get voice down WITHOUT being full time...

I think it's difficult for most to get voice down, period. 

From my experience, accurately judging how well you're passing is really hard. Some days I feel super confident and feel like I "nailed" that day and other days I feel like utter rubbish and am convinced that everyone sees right through me because I am so dysphoric. Then one day you are told through a friend that your mutual trans friend is always so jealous of your passing privilege and suddenly it's like, "Oh! Maybe I do pass... ?"

I think ultimately, so much of it comes down to your state of mind. For me, I was on hormones for 6 months before I (accidentally) went full time but if I had waited until I was sure I would pass, I'd probably still be waiting and I would have missed over a year of feeling so happy, meeting so many new people and forging so many great memories!!

Sometimes I guess it comes "naturally".
The confidence you will exhale as a woman and the social construction that is feminity will echoes to people around you when the will see that in you. When people will call you miss, you transition socially the easy way, smoothly.
That's for the "outer" factors.

when in comes to how you feel the "inner factors" I guess it depends on the goal, where you set the bar, what a woman is to you and how much of a woman you think YOU need to be to be treated as such. It is very subjective and up to you.

LoveLuvLv.
Kael.

I am at the point where I am questioning how to come out to people around me soon. Only my wife and therapist know my "little secret"... I have a few months yet to think and I believe I am going to wait until I male-fail possibly, so that I have "nowhere to hide" but to sigh and let it out to everyone anyway. Or I am even considering transitioning away from everyone in a far place/another country and come back much later on, if ever.

I agree with many of the comments here that we should do our best to NOT postpone being who we are, but I think there are a few things that can be done to help passing before even HRT starts. Such as working on the skin, voice, mannerism. These alone can give a huge boost to passing, and will give you a head start to living life as a woman. Maybe this is what is done in UK, even something harsh being imposed in order to receive treatment, allows the person to get a glimpse of living as the other gender. So if passing is your pre-requisite (as is mine) for transitioning, then make sure that you master the "preliminary tasks" first.

Good luck with whichever way you choose :*

I have to admit that I had some trouble forming an answer to this question. As I slowly come out to family and friends, they will undoubtedly see the effects of the endless hours of laser and electrolysis, the ever lengthening hair, the changing wardrobe and the results of hours of voice training. I still do not "pass" yet but, at the same time, they see a much less masculine person than what they were used to. It's all parts of the package that'll hopefully come together until, one day, most of my masculine traits and features will disappear from my physical and social presentation. I'm seriously considering FFS in a couple of years time to assist my "passing" although many family members say that I don't need it. (I don't believe them!) I hope, by then, it'll be just icing on the cake of a transition that will already be well advanced.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on May 31, 2017, 07:40:07 PM
More important, though, imo, are the psychological effects -- in particular, estradiol and progesterone have really made me much more emotionally open, both in terms of social engagement and self reflection, and that's also so very important when it comes to socialization.

This was my observation as well.  In the first six months or so, I felt like a somewhat broader emotional palette was available to me.  I definitely noticed reduced aggressivity, mostly manifesting as a increased willingness to let a situation unfold before intervening, adding my 2 cents, etc.  It seemed to me that these were real changes.

Over time, however, I think my personality traits have more or less flexed back toward my pre-treatment baseline.  At one point I seriously considered the possibility that my levels had fallen (they hadn't) or that I had gotten a bad vial.  I still think that I process somewhat differently than I did a few years ago, but what with the accumulation of life experience, ongoing counseling, more time spent living as female, I don't really know how much to ascribe to hormones.   In my case, the effects have been far more subtle than what I so commonly see described here.