Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 06, 2017, 12:40:04 AM
So the problem is someone worked hard and became successful so someone else doesn't have to ? Someone doesn't go into business to fail but succeed. Just because they have money and you don't doesn't give you the right to steal their money through unfair taxation that's how youdive companies out to do business elsewhere. Just ask California about their corporations moving too Texas about that.  Can I ask do you really understand how an economy is suppose to work?

Steal their money through unfair taxation? what do you mean? tax avoidance is rife all over the world. Most citizens do pay their tax but seems as though certain multi national companies and certain very rich ppl play the system and get away with ripping countries off. What's wrong with socialism? do you prefer predatory capitalism? Because that only seems to be benefical for a few ppl doesn't it. I guess everyone has to wait for the riches wealth to trickle on down. And blaming socialism for the Venezuelan crisis is a bit misleading because funnily enough those profiting from the crisis are mostly right wing elitist who delve into fraudulent import deals and criticise socialism to deflect from their own criminal behaviour. Unsurprising that many hold this view of socialism though, capitalism just has to be maintained doesn't it. US media tend to make fun of the situation in Venezuela as if the predatory capitalist system in the US doesn't fail it's citizens as well. It would be so kind of you to explain to everyone how an economy works?

And the US is already filled with socialist programs so i don't understand why ppl rail against socialism. And 95% of US already love socialism lol they just don't like to know that things are socialist because socialism is something that the US has been taught to fear. As rich as the US is it's disgraceful that peoples healthcare of all things is messed around with. Has military spending been cut? Some of that money could go towards fundamental services ppl need, who knows they might even get the military out of countries they don't belong in. Oops what will breitbart and fox news talk about then. 

QuotePart of my family escaped England in the 1600 til they finally made the voyage over they wanted freedom without govt interference

You seem to have a very distorted view of history.  Back in those days, the main driver for moving to the New World, was to escape religious persecution.  Even then, it wasn't until 1776 that they parted from England.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 05, 2017, 10:52:40 PM
look what happened to Rome when it went from a republic to a democracy

When did that happen exactly? Could you elaborate on that a bit with dates and discuss the consequences a bit more? I'm not sure exactly which historical event/period you are describing here in support of your argument.

QuoteSome say let's tax the wealthy til they are poor and tax their businesses out of existence but then where is the money going to come from?

QuoteJust because they have money and you don't doesn't give you the right to steal their money through unfair taxation that's how youdive companies out to do business elsewhere.

Perhaps you should research some recent history.  The standard of living had been rising for decades.  Then Reagan got in and started cutting taxes for the wealthy and corporations.  Since then, we've seen a significant decline in the standard of living for the bulk of the population, while the extremely wealthy have been getting much wealthier and more and more of the wealth being held by fewer and fewer.  Contrary to the "trickle down" theory of Reaganomics, money floats up.  Perhaps, since the government represents everyone, it has a duty to level things out a bit, so that the wealthy don't wind up owning everything.

Quote from: Jane Emily on June 06, 2017, 08:58:04 AM
When did that happen exactly? Could you elaborate on that a bit with dates and discuss the consequences a bit more? I'm not sure exactly which historical event/period you are describing here in support of your argument.

Yeah, Rome stopped being a Republic in 49 BC and didn't become a democracy until after WWII.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: Jane Emily on June 06, 2017, 08:58:04 AM
When did that happen exactly? Could you elaborate on that a bit with dates and discuss the consequences a bit more? I'm not sure exactly which historical event/period you are describing here in support of your argument.

Probably around the time the Goths invaded.  Yeah, right!   

As I recall from history, Rome wasn't much of a democracy back then.  It was more of plutocracy, which is government for the wealthy.

Quote from: AnneK on June 06, 2017, 07:34:04 AM
You seem to have a very distorted view of history.  Back in those days, the main driver for moving to the New World, was to escape religious persecution.  Even then, it wasn't until 1776 that they parted from England.

Not so. It was just one of many. The main reason was to attain a life of opportunity. Religion was the reason for Pilgrims and Puritans but to say it was the motivation for most of the immigration would be false. As always greed was a great motivator.

My ancestors came here in the 1700s for an entirely different reason.  One to avoid prison and another to avoid probable execution for participating in a failed insurrection in Germany.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

One should really study history objectively and understand not only to the level that it supports some simplistic argument but with all of the nuances of "what really happened". Democracy and Republics have never meant "all men and women for themselves" and are never ever a pure meritocracy. There can be no pure meritocracies because it just doesn't work given human nature and its actually inhuman to dole out resources only based on merit.

Democratic Socialism no matter if it flies under the banner of a republic like Portugal, a Monarchy like Canada or some other form of democracy such as Switzerland, have been a success. They are not new concepts. Social reform in Europe started in the 19th century and greatly effected the empires of the time.

The US is already a socialist country and has been for most of its existence. Postal service, public education, a military that everyone pays for, public utilities and roads, airports, medicare, social security (yes people pay into it but it is managed and distributed based on a social contract) and the list goes on and on.

Healthcare is one area we have woefully lagged the rest of the world and that has caused corporate welfare ( you are welcome Walmart), inequality and plain killed many people. Our public education is also suffering based on comparisons to other countries. Still, we have by far the largest military expenditure in the world and for some reason many people don't ever question that or compare it to the scenario where a big portion of it could be cut and provided to citizens in the form of a better healthcare system.

Quote from: Deborah on June 06, 2017, 11:48:29 AM
My ancestors came here in the 1700s for an entirely different reason.  One to avoid prison and another to avoid probable execution for participating in a failed insurrection in Germany.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Yeah a whole side of my family too fled Germany in the late 1840s due to political unrest. I'm sure they believed they were saving their lives.

Quote from: AnneK on June 06, 2017, 06:19:17 AM
What about that large portion of the population that does work hard, but doesn't earn enough to properly support themselves?  Why are they being forced into poverty?  Why is it so wrong to help them?  What about those who can't work?

Under the Clinton and Obama administration's they went after the middle class to break it,for without the middle class the whole thing collapses,the thing is Clinton tried but the Republican held senate refused to go along with Clinton, under Obama we had both houses controlled by the Democrats and they went on a spending spree to break the middle class and it worked til the Republicans regained both houses and stopped the spending spree.

See I worked for 22 yrs on paper with a disability so to pay into it for insurance toward the day I couldn't work full time anymore,the problem I have is alot if people want work but the jobs were shipped overseas  under the Clinton administration for the Clinton were in bed with China at the time and it paid off big time for Bill and Hillary for they became rich after leaving office by selling out Americans for money.

See before we had government interference communities took care of one another,now they expect the government too do it because of social programming,in a free market healthcare insurance rates would drop just like car insurance did when it was deregulated,where there is competition prices go down not up.

Socialism look to Venezuela under Chavez,everything became owned by the government and prices were set so there was not profit or competition so businesses closed or moved to Brazil,and now their economy tanked,food supplies are short or non existent. Britain did not have capitalism for the nobles ran the government through parliament and taxation for the colonies for taxes were higher then the other colonies because the output was higher,plus the colonial script was worthless in England.

See I understand how economies work and how they collapse,go look at a socialist country and compare it with our country and you will soon find the USA is a better place to live,Muslims come to America like the illigal too take what the USA has to offer but want to change the country into the one they left,which bothers me,if you didn't like where you came from why change another country to the standards of the one you left. I've had family on these shores for almost 400 yrs on my mom's side and over 3,000 yrs on my dad's side so I love this country and don't want it too change anymore then it has for over the last 84 yrs.

Quote from: Deborah on June 06, 2017, 11:48:29 AM
My ancestors came here in the 1700s for an entirely different reason.  One to avoid prison and another to avoid probable execution for participating in a failed insurrection in Germany.

Interesting.  The first of my relatives to come to North America arrived in 1630 to Plymouth Colony.  He was a deacon so I imagine he could have been fleeing persecution.  There were also quite a few Quakers in the family tree.  I imagine many fled England because of persecution and then fled to Canada after the Revolutionary war.   The rest of my relatives came to find new opportunities.

Paige

QuoteSee I understand how economies work and how they collapse,go look at a socialist country and compare it with our country and you will soon find the USA is a better place to live

Compare with northern Europe? 

P.S. look at gas prices where there is competition prices go down not up so to compete. The reason people came here after the revolution with Britain was to build better lives see capitalism is what this.country was founded on,you could come here broke  and through.hard work open their own businesses and compete for the.consumer. People came here to be free without government interference on their lives.

In 1917 the.democratic congress voted in the federal  Reserve and in 1933 the Federal Reserve bankrupt the USA  in 1933 when Roosevelt sold us to the world Bank and our money became colonial script  backed by nothing and our government became a war powers government controlled by the fed.and the world bank.
JFK was going to stop this bleeding and fleecing of Americans but was murdered before he.could sign the paperwork. The USA isn't rich for the wealth was stolen and is still being stolen through the fed and world bank,when our government wants too print more money they have to do a census first,for humans are collateral so the federal can print more money based on new population numbers, that's why foreigners who come here have a better shot at succeeding then the natural born american. Like I said I know how.it works for I studied this for over 40 yrs.

Quote from: Paige on June 06, 2017, 01:50:38 PM
Interesting.  The first of my relatives to come to North America arrived in 1630 to Plymouth Colony.  He was a deacon so I imagine he could have been fleeing persecution.  There were also quite a few Quakers in the family tree.  I imagine many fled England because of persecution and then fled to Canada after the Revolutionary war.   The rest of my relatives came to find new opportunities.

Paige

My family started the Plymouth colony,William Brewster and Miles Standish.

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 06, 2017, 01:35:45 PM
See before we had government interference communities took care of one another,

over 3,000 yrs on my dad's side so I love this country and don't want it too change anymore then it has for over the last 84 yrs.

Hi Cheryl,

I'm guessing your father has Native American roots.  I can't imagine anyone with that heritage talking about the good old days, maybe pre-Columbus.

Take care,
Paige

Quote from: cheryl reeves on June 06, 2017, 01:35:45 PM
in a free market healthcare insurance rates would drop just like car insurance did when it was deregulated,where there is competition prices go down not up.

Yes, before the ACA we had lower prices for an inferior product that excluded tens of millions of people.  Second, the market is not truly free as there are just a few insurance companies and the barriers to entry into that industry are huge.  It, like many other large industries today are oligopolies.  That is not free and it doesn't work in the interest of the consumer.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

Quote from: Deborah on June 06, 2017, 03:36:46 PM
Yes, before the ACA we had lower prices for an inferior product that excluded tens of millions of people.  Second, the market is not truly free as there are just a few insurance companies and the barriers to entry into that industry are huge.  It, like many other large industries today are oligopolies.  That is not free and it doesn't work in the interest of the consumer.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

When I did have company insurance it was pretty cheap for a family of 3 for mine was paid by the company and it was great insurance and my deductible was cheap also. Now I have humana insurance and it's a pretty good policy 25 dollars for my gp and 45 for a specialist and I pay 119 a month and have been on it for 5 yrs now with no problems they even have Transgender care on my policy.  I was exempt from Obamacare due to being on medicare which saved me a lot of money. If you deregulated healthcare and make companies compete for your business prices will be driven down not up,government healthcare is a monopoly.and not deregulated the pharmaceutical industry that's why prices are high for medications,you make pharmaceutical companies compete prices will go down. That's how a free market is suppose to work,I may not have a paper stating my education but I couldn't find a college too teach me for I was ahead of the teachers who taught my field of study,so I went to the school of hard knocks instead and learned alot,drove truck across the USA more times then most folks and I observed alot,I was the go too assistant manager for a dominoes I worked for because I competed for business and took alot of business away from 2 pizza places in town and closed a couple,became the only assistant Mgr too bonus 2 of the owners stores,matter of fact was the only one he had that could do it,not even he or the supervisor could do it,it was because I made sure the customer got the best pizza I could make,I didn't allow very many people to run the make line that was my area and I was fast enough to do it by myself.  See I know how the free market works for when I quit that job over a disagreement that was not in my best interest the owner lost both stores. I worked in the house hold moving industry and saved customers money which made the owners mad and the fired me,they went out of business. Socialism does not and will never work nor redistribution of wealth, if you want wealth find a product and sell it,if I had a backer for a pizza and spaghetti place I would put alot of other businesses out of business for I could make a superior product cheaper then they can,but not having a boost kept me from succeeding,this is what I would like help with for then I could get off social security and make a better living, I showed several backers the numbers and it scared em off for they couldn't figure my numbers out and the profit margins because they were in the high range which scared em off.

The free market this country was founded on worked so well international bankers wanted the country and the profits when 2 wars and a failed backing of the south, they found a way in through the northern politicians and they worked at it til the Republicans revolted and the Democrats embraced it and the Federal Reserve system was passed which placed this country into the hands of 12 families and made them richer and Americans poorer, even billionaires are pale in comparison too the wealth these 12 families have.  If we obsolete the federal Reserve our debt would be null and void but our resources belong to these 12 families so we have nothing to base a new currency on, Johnson seen to that by flooding Europe with gold and emptying fort Knox and our gold reserves,our currency is worthless if the federal Reserve stopped backing it you would have nothing but empty paper with a promise.  Like I said I know alot about our govt and economy.

More of that res ipsa loquitur sort of brilliance to shine the light of true understanding on the way things really are.  How fascinating to read of the historical contortions some polarized positions invoke. 

Diverse political positions within the transgender community?  Oh yeah, we got that covered