I wrote some posts about adjusting to being treated as a female. A couple of people used the term male privilege.  To be honest I wasn't sure what that was or what it meant. Then I watched a video on you tube about a transwoman in the UK. She had been like the equivalent to a navy seal or something in the British army. She was like a big deal in the military. She had friends who admired her, a girlfriend who loved her and parents that were very proud of her. Then she transitioned and POOF! All of it was gone. Her friends wanted no more to do with her. Friends who served with her for years sent her cruel emails making fun of her and saying totally cruel things. Her girlfriend kicked her to the curb. And worst of all her parents who had been so proud of her sent her a letter saying they never wanted to see her again and that she was dead to them. But still she went on with her transition. The night before her surgery she was talking about how totally alone she was. She had SRS and FFS and she was very pretty. But then she had trouble finding any kind of job at all because she was trans. She was happy with her transition but when she talked about her old life you could tell it really hurt her. This was one of the most heartbreaking things I have seen. I understand now what is meant by " male privilege ". I also understand I really didn't have any. Not enough to complain about for sure. I also realize a lot of you have had similar lives. You are incredibly strong women. I hope your lives are happy now.
Hugs
Julia

I may be misunderstanding what was intended by your post here but transphobia and loss of "male privilege" aren't the same thing.

I meant that she had a very good life and then it got ripped away from her.

Hi male privilege is things that only males can do or get away with some times double standards examples are peeing standing up, being promiscuous as a male is fine as as a female you are a slut, things like that. 

QuoteShe had friends who admired her, a girlfriend who loved her and parents that were very proud of her. Then she transitioned and POOF! All of it was gone. Her friends wanted no more to do with her. Friends who served with her for years sent her cruel emails making fun of her and saying totally cruel things.

I would consider that loss of cis privilege. Unless you're in stealth, you can't really separate it from the equation and if you ask me, has a far bigger influence on the poor treatment of transwomen than anything else.  It's that little bit of difference between the treatment of MTF's and FTM's when they come out that could be spoken of in terms of male privileges. And I say little bit, because FTM's can have it really bad as well.

Quote from: Julia1996 on June 18, 2017, 03:45:18 PM
I meant that she had a very good life and then it got ripped away from her.

Hi Julia,

As Viktor pointed out, that is not what male privilege is about.
 
Male privilege is not being interrupted or talked over in a business or social setting. 
Male privilege is getting recognition or praise for the same job a woman does who gets nothing. 
Male privilege is not having your anger or frustration over legitimate beefs viewed as "hysterical", or being attributed to "that time of the month". 
Male privilege is having exactly the same resume as a woman and getting the job instead of her.
Male privilege is having exactly the same job responsibilities as a female coworker and getting paid more.
Male privilege is not having an auto mechanic/bank manager/store clerk assume you know nothing and give you a condescending or patronizing attitude, e.g. "mansplaining".
Male privilege is having your work evaluated for its merits and not on your looks.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.

With kindness,

Terri

Ok Terri. Your list helped. I think I get it now. I thought male privilege was when someone had like a particularly good life as a male.

I guess it can exisit in many fashions. A point, when i was in my teens i lived in a very tiny town. A lot of the elderly came up to me to do labourious work. I helped move their furninture around the house, cut grass, shovled snow, build garden beds, build drenches, ect... i was a local handy(wo)man. Had i been AFAB i am actually quite doubtful now as i was a bit back then that I would have been given that type of employment out of nowhere. Some of my customers were old fashion, this one couple especially were deeply old school and would call Ellen Degeneres Ellen ''Degenerate'' and go on about how how morals are dying , ect, ect. The man in specific showed that he thought he was higher then his wife.. just a vibe you can feel. But she was also backwards. So in that frame of mind I am like i said doubtful that many of the opprotunities I had growing up (Handy work, staying out later and walking home on my own, ect) I would have had being female either Cis or Trans had i lived the right life in my earlier years. So yes, i do think male privelidge exists. 

How's these examples?

I guess we are still close but since I came back it's kind of like I'm not totally valid as a person anymore. Both of them are like dismissive with me now. When I talk to either one of them I get " yeah, ok, umhm. " but it's totally obvious they aren't listening to anything I'm saying. Both of them are also always telling me what I can and can't and what I should and shouldn't do as a female.

I'm also getting excluded a lot. I use to do stuff with both of them and now they make plans and do stuff without me.

After a couple minutes of trying to talk to him he'll say something like " make yourself useful Julia and get me some coffee."

I just want to be treated like I'm not a airheaded simpleton.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,224912.msg1991883.html#msg1991883

I've seen this all over and if i was not self-employed, i can't imagine being in the labor market. Loss of privilege is different than transphobia for sure but it can be a "double whammy" to face them both.

My list includes:

1. Being talked down to, i notice this more and more.
2. Being interrupted
3. Assumptions about what i like and what i don't like
4. Comments made about feminism

This is part of the struggle we face.

Male privilege is perhaps one of the main things that strikes doubt into my mind when I think about transitioning. You see, I am an actor and, although the theatrical business is rather open and diverse in areas it cannot be denied that white males do and always have had the largest range of castability and have had the main input in a lot of films and theatre etc. I am hoping to go to drama school after my transition but I am a bit sceptical that I will be able to do as well as a woman than I would be able to as a man...

Then again when I think about it I am socially crippled by being transgender at the moment so I'd probably flounder as a man anyway. It is still worrying though.

Not to be a jerk, and I could contribute to the male privilege thing an item or two (all right, let me do it - how about guys watching football games and eating chips and girls fetching them beer and making them comfortable, then leaving them alone to enjoy their game )

But I also would like to point out there's such thing as female privilege too. Girls aren't expected to do heavy and dirty jobs, can demand males in their household to carry trash out and fix things. There's more societal pressure on guys to get a job and to feed the family. Girls can spend more money to be beautiful and pamper themselves. And men's opinion is not taken seriously in anything that is considered by the ladies as not their business (huh, if I give my wife some advice, she would ignore it - if she gets the same advice from any of her girlfriends - it's as good as gold).

I think our worlds are separated and very different, but one isn't necessarily better or easier than another


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Quote from: Julia1996 on June 18, 2017, 03:32:51 PM
I understand now what is meant by " male privilege ". I also understand I really didn't have any. Not enough to complain about for sure.

Julia, your experience and transition timeline is similar to mine with the exception that I'm old enough to be your grandmother. When I think of male privilege, many of the things that have already been said come to mind. The ability to walk down a dark street without worrying about being harassed or attacked... being part of the "good ol' boy network" and often having a high status and a powerful well paying career and not being judged by looks or attractiveness or being thought of as a second class citizen are some of the things I attribute to male privilege.

You will never know life as a man and within your own family have witnessed how misogyny can be tied to male privilege  so in some respects, you already recognize much of what this is about. As you get older and more experienced in the ways of the world, all this will become much more clear for you. All it does is make you fight harder and work more for your voice to be heard to be taken as an equal. I was lucky to have strong female role models growing up that taught me by example to not put up with this crap but there are always going to be men that fail to recognize their own privilege you'll have to deal with that will want to not take you seriously, especially if you are attractive.

QuoteI also realize a lot of you have had similar lives. You are incredibly strong women. I hope your lives are happy now.

I too admire the strength of those that have had lives as men that go on to transition. You and I can read about how difficult this must be but I don't think we will really know how hard this is beyond our imagination. Yes, sometimes those that transition after having successful lives of men don't think we've struggled as much or had it as hard and in many cases, there's an element of truth in that but on the other hand, being a trans youth is no walk in the park either especially if you've been obvious and ostracized and bullied your entire childhood.

Quote from: elkie-t on June 18, 2017, 06:06:43 PM
But I also would like to point out there's such thing as female privilege too. Girls aren't expected to do heavy and dirty jobs, can demand males in their household to carry trash out and fix things. There's more societal pressure on guys to get a job and to feed the family. Girls can spend more money to be beautiful and pamper themselves.

There's a lot of generalizations in there leaning on some heavy stereotypes assuming that all women have these benefits of being women. I was raised to be strong, independent and to not rely on men to get things done that needed doing and if dirty or heavy jobs need done, I do them while trying not to break a nail. Girls may spend more money "to be beautiful" because that's what expected by the patriarchy in order to be accepted and desirable which is entirely a crock of bull.

QuoteAnd men's opinion is not taken seriously in anything that is considered by the ladies as not their business (huh, if I give my wife some advice, she would ignore it - if she gets the same advice from any of her girlfriends - it's as good as gold).

Yeah, mansplaining often does fall on deaf ears.

QuoteI think our worlds are separated and very different, but one isn't necessarily better or easier than another.

Are you a woman? What's your perspective and experience? I tend to agree that both sexes have their benefitsand drawbacks but for the most part, it's still a man's world.

Julia, you may not realize it but the way your brother, father and grand father treat you now is an example of male privilege. Once you moved into the feminine role, you were no longer an equal and you have complained about that in other threads. Nothing about you change and you are just as capable as before but you no longer are considered that way by the males in the family.

Quote from: Lisa_K on June 18, 2017, 06:52:07 PM

There's a lot of generalizations in there leaning on some heavy stereotypes assuming that all women have these benefits of being women. I was raised to be strong, independent and to not rely on men to get things done that needed doing and if dirty or heavy jobs need done, I do them while trying not to break a nail. Girls may spend more money "to be beautiful" because that's what expected by the patriarchy in order to be accepted and desirable which is entirely a crock of bull.

Yeah, mansplaining often does fall on deaf ears.

Are you a woman? What's your perspective and experience? I tend to agree that both sexes have their benefitsand drawbacks but for the most part, it's still a man's world.

I am white male dreaming to be a woman, but probably not strong enough to really go for it. Yes, I recognize myself as a receptor of the male privilege. I am not about to fight the world when it's playing in my favor. I doubt I'd had a successful career would I transition early, or even been born a female.

Yet, I know that what I said is also true. Not necessarily it is true for each and every lady without exception, but as a general rule regarding male-female relationships. I think that everything that exists, must be for a reason.

I'm not saying it's such a great thing, male privilege. I'd love to trade the roles, fully understanding how much I'd expect to lose (yet unsure how much I'd gain). But in the end, don't you think there are some good things in being a woman? Would you want to trade everything you gain by being one, for that male thing? Or do you believe you can have only good without having good deal of bad (not necessarily bad per se, but need to work harder, etc)?


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Quote from: elkie-t on June 18, 2017, 10:21:43 PM
But in the end, don't you think there are some good things in being a woman?

I'm sure there are merits in both but I have only seen the ones of men from the outside through the lens of living and working my entire adult life as woman and not that I'm whining or trying to pull out the victim card or anything but there are, in our society at least, things that are afforded through male privilege that women simply aren't privy to.

QuoteWould you want to trade everything you gain by being one, for that male thing?

You mean gains like having men to take out the trash and kill spiders, fix things and do stuff we're to delicate and genteel to do?  I wouldn't trade my life to be a guy or for male privilege for all the tea in China!

QuoteOr do you believe you can have only good without having good deal of bad (not necessarily bad per se, but need to work harder, etc)?

Very little has been handed to me and if you think there aren't things I've had to work harder at or be smarter at just to compete with men or be heard over men, then there are just certain realities of being a woman you are oblivious to. No shade or anything and nothing derogatory intended but I've been there, done that and wore holes in the t-shirt. I entered the workforce in 1974 and spent the next twenty years in the pink collar ghetto working for men until I got out and started my own business in an industry dominated by men so that's my experience and I think my observations about male privilege, particularly how it pertains to the workplace are completely valid.

Lisa in your post you said you transitioned as a teenager and that you entered the workplace in 1974. I am totally impressed. I know from another thread that transitioning in the 70s was like really hard and that people had a very hostile attitude towards trans people back then. I would love to hear your transition story if you want to share it. I'm so happy for you that you got to transition young and that your parents let you.
Julia

Quote from: Julia1996 on June 19, 2017, 06:37:53 AM
Lisa in your post you said you transitioned as a teenager and that you entered the workplace in 1974. I am totally impressed. I know from another thread that transitioning in the 70s was like really hard and that people had a very hostile attitude towards trans people back then. I would love to hear your transition story if you want to share it. I'm so happy for you that you got to transition young and that your parents let you.

Julia, in 1974, I was the same age you are now (19). I've read a lot of your posts and have been hoping to catch your attention. I got started at 15, began HRT after my junior year and completed social transition immediately after graduating high school. It took a while but I had SRS in 1977 at 22. (that will be 40 years ago tomorrow!) I am 62.5 years old now.

I have shared most of my story. I'm sorry but I'm new and can't PM or post links yet but a lot of it is in a thread called "Transition in the 1970s/1980/1990s" that's currently on page 2 in the Transsexual Talk> Male to Female Transsexual talk forum. There's a few others too. Can you see my posts in my profile?

Lisa,  I read your other post. That's awesome. I'm glad you have accepting parents.  They must have been pretty forward thinking to accept a trans child in the early 70s. I think you can pm when you have like 15 posts or something. When you can pm I would love to hear more about your life.
Hugs
Julia

The other thing to consider is that privilege is just one factor that effects women's abilities to work, socially interact etc. There are systems of oppression and discrimination also and many times these combine in a concept called intersectionality. A woman might for instance be trans, a woman of color and from a lower economic strata.

I heard recently and i do not have the source but that a trans woman of color has an average earnings of $11,000 annually. That is far lower than the 78 cents on the dollar the rest of women make.

None of these systems or attitudes have to exist. They are artificial.