With a damning report out this morning on the damage we've done to the oceans of the world, yet another school shooting, our assorted little wars and exploitations, I sometimes wonder if we haven't maybe had our time. The very real possiblity of global disaster looms between religious fundamentalists with nukes and global warming and, and, and ... Is our species worth saving, and if so, why?

It seems that marketing disaster is more popular than intellectual pursuits. Maybe because of the effort needed. There is a positive side of humans if you are willing to work at it.

Yes of course.
We are also beautiful, and Kind, and loving and generous, and a lot of other things.
Harm is unavoidable.
We have a responsibility to clean up after ourselves, but we can't not do harm.

What's needed is a little growing up.
A sense of responsibility.
Some disasters might do exactly that.

Sara

Quote from: Sarah on February 15, 2008, 10:29:57 AM
What's needed is a little growing up.
A sense of responsibility.
Some disasters might do exactly that.

That's my feeling on it as well. Everybody goes on about 'saving the earth', but really, the earth's been around for a few billion years, and in that kind of timescale, it would not take her long to recover if we did go the way of the dinosaurs.

It's really about saving ourselves, and hopefully growing wiser in the process.

QuoteIt's really about saving ourselves, and hopefully growing wiser in the process.

Are there are some not worth saving?

Not what I meant - I mean us as in all of humankind saving ourselves before we destroy ourselves. I happen to believe that we have great potential for goodness and spirituality and all the rest, but that we are so distracted by fear and ignorance that we never achieve it. For me the ultimate tragedy would be if we destroyed ourselves before we ever realised that potential.

I don't' think that it's time for humankind to step down.  We just need to step up.  From what it sounds like, we'll put enough CO2 into the atmosphere within the next 100 years to create another extinction level event.

Frankly, I don't think our current civilization has the moxy to change the course of this freight train. It's going to take planning, restraint, and a lot of money.  It's not in us to collectively do great things.  Give it another 50 years when the threat is eminent.... then that generation might try to do something... Hopefully it won't be too late.

I've done all I can to reduce the effects of my existence here.  I power my home with solar energy.  And even though my transport is a big truck, I only drive it 3 or 4 times a month.  I've made an effort to cut my garbage output by 50 percent and I'm ready to cut that by half.

But it really boils down to this:  I'll be dead by the time we have poisoned our planet.  I've done what I can.  Since our society isn't actively making change, I don't know that what I've done will really make that much difference.

Cindi

Cindi: Think about it this way - nobody changes the world alone, but if everybody did the same, we'd already be much further along than we are.

As to the ELE - it's coming. I feel like you, that the slippery slope is too steep by now. But I also have hope. Some of us will survive - we always seem to. And hopefully the golden age spoken of in every tradition from Hindu and Mayan prophecy to Native American vision quests and everything inbetween has more to it than just wishful thinking.

I'm sorry, ELE?

QuoteBut I also have hope. Some of us will survive - we always seem to

I do think it is going to be a gradual fall of many small events that reduce population. A fair share maybe 1/4 of the now population will fit the amount of resources for a balanced earth. I do hope they save the cultural artifacts to pass on the art and knowledge.

Quote from: Sarah on February 15, 2008, 04:47:36 PM
I'm sorry, ELE?

Extinction Level Event. The end of the last ice age would be classed as such, because it had a global and systemic impact which caused extinction on a wide scale.

Posted on: 15 February 2008, 22:46:20

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Quote from: lisagurl on February 15, 2008, 08:25:29 PM
I do think it is going to be a gradual fall of many small events that reduce population.

I suppose looking at current trends with natural disasters, that's an equally likely scenario.

Ah anyway. I shouldn't have started this thread - getting rather depressing... I think I need to stop posting when I'm down!  getting  might be a better approach...

The government and world leaders will lead the human race to its destruction. Only the intellectually superior will remain to repopulate the earth. It's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it.

(BS answer to lighten the mood, feel free to ignore me.)

Quote from: Osiris on February 15, 2008, 11:05:46 PM
The government and world leaders will lead the human race to its destruction. Only the intellectually superior will remain to repopulate the earth. It's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it.

(BS answer to lighten the mood, feel free to ignore me.)

No, no! Go right ahead and lighten away!

You shouldn't have a problem surviving though... Getting caught up in global catastrophe shouldn't pose a problem for somebody who's been dismembered and then put back together.

(Thoroughly BS reply to aforementioned BS answer... )

You poketh so viciously with your wit my dear. I'm sure we'll both be around long after the global catastrophe to help with the noble mission of repopulation... Or at least watch and laugh. I'll protect popcorn from total annihilation if you save the soda.

i somehow doubt society will ever 'grow up'

Religion will never go away.
Politics wont end
and people wont learn to love eachother.

we are tribal animals, we have our little cliques, and blow the crap out of the other guy. Its the same way that pack animals in nature do, and we wont ever stop. We are not all equal, nor are we all the same. there can be mixing, and interaction, but himan kind will never see each other human as the same. Does every Lion treat any other lion it meets as a friend and equal?
nope.
Anyone who trys to say we are better than animals is a hypocrite, and delusional.
We can just vocalise our teritorial nature thats all
R >

Quote from: Rachael on February 15, 2008, 11:27:53 PM
i somehow doubt society will ever 'grow up'

Religion will never go away.
Politics wont end
and people wont learn to love eachother.

we are tribal animals, we have our little cliques, and blow the crap out of the other guy. Its the same way that pack animals in nature do, and we wont ever stop. We are not all equal, nor are we all the same. there can be mixing, and interaction, but himan kind will never see each other human as the same. Does every Lion treat any other lion it meets as a friend and equal?
nope.
Anyone who trys to say we are better than animals is a hypocrite, and delusional.
We can just vocalise our teritorial nature thats all
R >

Unfortunately, I think you're right, but I have a theory that things will change enormously in over a 1000 yrs time.  I believe the human race will be totally different then, it will not resemble in any way what we are like now.  It would be too hard to conceivably explain the changes but the reasons will ultimately be that we will be perfect.  All those negative traits that we possess now will be removed altogether, and there will be a peace that we will never know in many, many more lifetimes.  I believe this is the ultimate plan.  Cause you realise there is a master plan? 

Towards the end of the Permian period (251 million years ago), there was an ELE that killed 95 percent of all life on the earth. It was very likely greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere that caused this event. These were released by lots of volcanic activity back then. For reference, the ELE that killed the dinosaurs (the big asteroid) was significantly less lethal.

During that era, the plankton in the oceans began to store the CO2 in their tiny bodies.  They died and sank to the bottom of the oceans. Since the planet was so toxic, the bottom of the oceans were anoxic (devoid of oxygen).  Thus, these little dead things just piled up without decaying and the CO2 was trapped.  Sediments eventually covered this goo and to make a long story short, turned it into oil.  We dig up the oil, burn it, and release all that CO2.  No, it is not just warming we should be worried about.  We will literally be killing life on the planet if we trigger an ELE with greenhouse gases.

So, when I talk about an ELE within the next 100 years, it's very likely going to happen.  We've built our entire civilization on fossil fuels.  Since we discovered oil, some experts figure we have used half of the available supply.

All we have to do is to increase the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere by a factor from 2 to 4 and we will recreate the Permian-Triassic ELE.

Scary stuff ain't it?

Now.. we could blow ourselves to hell in the meantime and save the world

Cindi

Holo(cene)caust part 2? Although an amusing scenario, we are more likely to reach the peak of the orbital ecentricity cycle, and begin a process of cooling again for the plannet.... thus offsetting greenhouse effects for another 100thousand years till we get dangerously close once more...
its like chicken with the climate... considering the climate was massively co2 dominated back in the permian, i doubt such climatic conditions are replicable simply by the buring of the decayed foram remains from the oil fields.... its just not enough of what was there...

|Buttercup: we havent changed 'enormously' in the last 2 thousand years, whats so special about the upcoming one thousand?
R >

Quote from: Osiris on February 15, 2008, 11:22:17 PM
You poketh so viciously with your wit my dear. I'm sure we'll both be around long after the global catastrophe to help with the noble mission of repopulation... Or at least watch and laugh. I'll protect popcorn from total annihilation if you save the soda.

And Turkish Delight! We must save Turkish Delight!

Posted on: 16 February 2008, 10:28:02

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Quote from: buttercup on February 16, 2008, 01:08:27 AM

Quote from: Rachael on February 15, 2008, 11:27:53 PM
i somehow doubt society will ever 'grow up'

Religion will never go away.
Politics wont end
and people wont learn to love eachother.

we are tribal animals, we have our little cliques, and blow the crap out of the other guy. Its the same way that pack animals in nature do, and we wont ever stop. We are not all equal, nor are we all the same. there can be mixing, and interaction, but himan kind will never see each other human as the same. Does every Lion treat any other lion it meets as a friend and equal?
nope.
Anyone who trys to say we are better than animals is a hypocrite, and delusional.
We can just vocalise our teritorial nature thats all
R >

Unfortunately, I think you're right, but I have a theory that things will change enormously in over a 1000 yrs time.  I believe the human race will be totally different then, it will not resemble in any way what we are like now.  It would be too hard to conceivably explain the changes but the reasons will ultimately be that we will be perfect.  All those negative traits that we possess now will be removed altogether, and there will be a peace that we will never know in many, many more lifetimes.  I believe this is the ultimate plan.  Cause you realise there is a master plan? 

Rachael: We are as instinctive as sharks, and every bit as deadly, but there is one thing we humans have that, as far as we know, no other animal does. We have the capacity of choice, which allows us to deny our instincts, to rise above fear and greed and ignorance and the herd/pack mentality and act better. And usually it's because of knowledge and a broader understanding that people reach that kind of altruism.

I believe we and society can grow up. Tough yes, but possible. And like Buttercup, I do think that our, for lack of a better ter, 'spiritual evolution' is accelerating, because we are gaining that broader understanding of cause and effect, albeit slowly. The only question is which comes first - self destruction or enlightenment.

we havent changed 'enormously' in the last 2 thousand years, whats so special about the upcoming one thousand?

Yeah we have, radically in some ways, other ways, perhaps not so much, but I doubt you could take people from 2K years ago and have them function in the modern world, nor could you go back and live that life either with any ease. 

When people speak of saving the world, they are really saying "saving the human race" the world goes on.  And, if history is any guide its not the "smart" ones who survive those events, its the biggest, strongest, best armed and most organized packs, or tribes that do well.  The "intellectually superior" will go long before the Hell's Angels do.