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Subdividing TS's on the transgender spectrum

Started by amandam, August 04, 2017, 05:51:15 PM

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amandam

I haven't found a mental subdivision, does one exist? I have 2 of the DSM-5 criteria by my own estimate and will delve further into my feelings. I'd like to see if there is any info I can read up on while I'm doing that.

It's like we have CDers and then a big gap and then TS's. Non-op, etc. doesn't seem to cover it as people can be non-op for a variety of reasons. I'm looking for mental/emotional stages.

I'll list out something fake so you can get my gist:
Stage 2a transgender - xxx
Stage 2b transgender - xxx
..
Stage 4 transgender - surgery

Out of the closet to family 4-2019
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Devlyn

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Dena

You may not find a good subdivision. The non binary isn't well understood by many doctors and many non binary aren't even sure exactly what they are. I suspect this is because the non binary is far more diverse than we understand it to  be. As for what we know about, our WIKI is one place to look and our greeting links contains another.
Rebirth Date 1982 - PMs are welcome - Use [email]dena@susans.org[/email] or Discord if your unable to PM - Skype is available - My Transition
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kelly_aus

I can't see this being a great idea and it's a concept that the medical community has moved away from except for where it actually makes a useful measurement/description - like cancer or liver disease.

And given the wide variety of trans experiences, I suspect that it would end up being a very long, convoluted list that wasn't really all that useful or helpful.
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amandam

I think you're right. Guess you don't know until you get there.
Out of the closet to family 4-2019
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kelly_aus

I suspect that you are also a little confused by terms. Transgender is an umbrella term that covers a number of different groups like CD's, drag kings/queens, transsexuals etc.

Have a look at the Wiki for better definitions here: https://www.susans.org/wiki/Main_Page
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josie76

Yeh, don't think there's a way to do that or that it should be done anyway.

Scientifically speaking, there are many areas of the brain that are gender dymorphic. However they do not all develop at the same time. Since androgen hormones appear to be the primary source of the neural pattern change, any change in the level of those hormones will affect the areas only if they are in their particular developmental time.

So it is very logical to think that a varying level of androgen in a fetus through pregnancy could masculinize some segments but not others. Following that thought it explains why such a range of trans experience exists as different areas effect different instincts and though processes due to differing neural pathways.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy

A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence. I for one want to live now not just exist!

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amandam

Since it looks like I meet two of the DSM-5 criteria, I was wondering if I am defined as transsexual, to use the older term? Seems like people throw these phrases around meaning different things.
Out of the closet to family 4-2019
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josie76

Transgender simply means your brain/mental being does not match your born sex. Could be complete mismatch, could be just a bit that makes you uncomfortable with it. Hence the trans spectrum.

Transsexual is some who is undergoing transition to the other physical sex.

That's about as plain as the terms can be used I think.

What therapists use as a standard for recommendations is whether the person's disphoria affects their life and is a persistent condition. After all, for an average person, understanding what we experience is only a vague concept.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy

A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence. I for one want to live now not just exist!

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Sophia Sage

Quote from: amandam on August 04, 2017, 05:51:15 PMI'm looking for mental/emotional stages.

There really aren't different categories, no.  But I do think there are some roughly broad stages to transition, as a rite of passage, with particular sorts of mental or emotional subtexts to them.  Again, these aren't precise or universal, but very very general, and of course can even overlap (they typically do). 

Coming Out

Lots of fear, but lots of excitement and relief, too.  During this time we're ritually establishing a new identity with other people, and hoping they'll accept and adopt the narrative we present as we separate ourselves from our previous reality.  We're gathering and disseminating knowledge, often engaging with therapists, finding support groups.  This can also be a lonely period, as we lose people along the way and come to grips with being so different from other people. 

Many transitioners will reverse course at this stage to prevent or mitigate their losses.  Others (more and more as our world becomes more progressive) find there was nothing to be afraid of in the first place.

In-Between

This is the liminal stage, all about making changes.  Electrolysis, hormones, voice training.  All the myriad surgeries.  Learning makeup and clothes, if we haven't already.  Just a lot of learning in general during this period. 

It's a time marked by a lot of waiting, too, as well as anxiety.  It's as we pass through this stage that our ambiguity is at its greatest.  There can be a lot of compartmentalization here -- dressing at home, but not out in the rest of the world, for example.

Full-Time

This used to be called "the RLE" or "real life experience" but it's really a "rite of incorporation" -- for one's self, at the very least, there's clarity emerging about who we are and what boundaries we're setting for ourselves. 

This stage often overlaps with the Liminal, in that when we go full time we're usually not free of ambiguity just yet, which can be especially daunting in the workplace (a lot transitions fall off the rails here because of that).  On the other hand, a lot of transitioners find this is exactly where they need to be, and that nothing further is required -- or possible, for financial and/or medical reasons. 

Post-Op

This is usually, but not always, an important milestone for transitioners.  Having the sex-change operations.  It confers a much stronger legal status.  It's often the last thing on the "list" of changes to make to one's body.  There's a lot of rest and healing up here, but also often a sense of loss, because the thing we've spent so much time on for so long is finally coming to an end. 

It's often at this point that transitioners start leaving the world of transition behind.  But it's not actually the end of the journey.  Because there's still the matter of how we're going to fit in with the rest of the world. 

Out or Stealth

Sometimes we have a choice, and sometimes we don't. 

There are two general paths that people go on -- living with an open narrative, or practicing non-disclosure (which is predicated on passing).  There are different stresses and joys for each path.  It's possible to walk both, having an open narrative in some social contexts (like birth families) and a closed narrative in other contexts.  In general, though, most transitioners prefer one mode over the other for how they want to be incorporated back into the world. 

All of these "stages" can be preceded by the phrase "I am." 
What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it.
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Janes Groove

Dr. Harry Benjamin came up with a categorization of various types of trans folks based on his observations from his clinical practice treating transsexuals and published his typology back in 1966.  While it has been widely disputed and mostly replaced by today's concept of a gender spectrum that varies from individual to individual I find it very interesting from a historical perspective.  He came up with 6 basic types, I think I would fall into the Type 5 transsexual profile at this point:

Type One: ->-bleeped-<- (Pseudo)

Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Could get occasional kick out of dressing. Normal male life.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Hetero, bi, or homosexual. Dressing and -- more --exchange may occur in masturbation fantasies mainly. May enjoy TV literature only.
Kinsey Scale: 0-6
Conversion Operation: Not considered in reality.
Estrogen Medication: Not interested or indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted and unnecessary.
Remarks: Interests in dressing is only sporadic.

Type Two: Transvestism (Fetishistic)

Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dressing periodically or part of the time. Dresses underneath male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual. Rarely bisexual. Masturbation with fetish. Guilt feelings. Purges and relapses.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Rejected
Estrogen Medication: Rarely interested. Occasionally useful to reduce libido.
Psychotherapy: May be successful (in a favorable environment.)
Remarks: May imitate double (masculine and feminine) personality with male and female names.

Type Three: Transvestism (True)

Gender Feeling: Masculine (but with less conviction.)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses constantly or as often as possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath male clothes, if no other chance.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual, except when dressed. Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May purge and relapse.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive.
Estrogen Medication: Attractive as an experiment. Can be helpful emotionally
Psychotherapy: If attempted is usually not successful as to cure.
Remarks: May assume double personality. Trend toward transsexualism.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)

Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman; sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)

Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible. Insufficient relief from dressing.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)

Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated.

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amandam

Quote from: josie76 on August 04, 2017, 10:03:22 PM
Transgender simply means your brain/mental being does not match your born sex. Could be complete mismatch, could be just a bit that makes you uncomfortable with it. Hence the trans spectrum.

Transsexual is some who is undergoing transition to the other physical sex.

That's where the transgender spectrum confused me because it included people such as drag queens who have no mismatch.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on August 04, 2017, 11:12:38 PM
Coming Out
Lots of fear, but lots of excitement and relief, too.  During this time we're ritually establishing a new identity with other people, and hoping they'll accept and adopt the narrative we present as we separate ourselves from our previous reality.  We're gathering and disseminating knowledge, often engaging with therapists, finding support groups.  This can also be a lonely period, as we lose people along the way and come to grips with being so different from other people. 

Many transitioners will reverse course at this stage to prevent or mitigate their losses.  Others (more and more as our world becomes more progressive) find there was nothing to be afraid of in the first place.

In-Between
This is the liminal stage, all about making changes.  Electrolysis, hormones, voice training.  All the myriad surgeries.  Learning makeup and clothes, if we haven't already.  Just a lot of learning in general during this period. 

It's a time marked by a lot of waiting, too, as well as anxiety.  It's as we pass through this stage that our ambiguity is at its greatest.  There can be a lot of compartmentalization here -- dressing at home, but not out in the rest of the world, for example.

These are good definitions, thanks. I just came out to myself as trans and not a CDer, and I am at the In-Between stage. I've tried herbal hormones and want electrolysis, but haven't done real hormones or any surgery.

I guess I've just been diagnosed and my therapist has to do triage on me to determine the course of treatment. :)
Out of the closet to family 4-2019
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Laurie

Quote from: Janes Groove on August 04, 2017, 11:31:17 PM
Dr. Harry Benjamin came up with a categorization of various types of trans folks based on his observations from his clinical practice treating transsexuals and published his typology back in 1966.  While it has been widely disputed and mostly replaced by today's concept of a gender spectrum that varies from individual to individual I find it very interesting from a historical perspective.  He came up with 6 basic types, I think I would fall into the Type 5 transsexual profile at this point:

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)

Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible. Insufficient relief from dressing.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

  Thanks Jane, This was interesting. I care not that it is considered outdated. I believe #5 has me pegged though I am currently undecided on the operation.

Hugs,
   Laurie
April 13, 2019 switched to estradiol valerate
December 20, 2018    Referral sent to OHSU Dr Dugi  for vaginoplasty consult
December 10, 2018    Second Letter VA Psychiatric Practical nurse
November 15, 2018    First letter from VA therapist
May 11, 2018 I am Laurie Jeanette Wickwire
May   3, 2018 Submitted name change forms
Aug 26, 2017 another increase in estradiol
Jun  26, 2017 Last day in male attire That's full time I guess
May 20, 2017 doubled estradiol
May 18, 2017 started electrolysis
Dec   4, 2016 Started estradiol and spironolactone



  •  

jodyh

hi all
i wonder if these days we arnt trying to have too many labels to cover every person in the trans spectrum.i hd similar to this with a mental health problem and when i asked the psyc doc he said do u need an exact label,that may not cover exactly what u have. with the trans spectrum nowadays i dont see why a person should fit into an exact drawer.some do dont get me wrong but some of us are a bit fluid.my doc is great he says forget anything other than your trans and u know where u want to fit,we dont need anything more than that.i hate the thought i have to come somewhere on a list to fit in,im me and what i am is me. i see myself as a transwoman but more like a transman who has turned back after hormones but before surgery(a butch woman in short)thats how i feel and thats how the psyc doc said i feel happier as.i was so glad when the trans spectrum was recognised but sometimes now with the amount of labels people want its getting silly i think. matbe im wrong ,maybe people do want a specific label but we are going to end up with descriptions so long it will be silly. ;D
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JoanneB

Quote from: Janes Groove on August 04, 2017, 11:31:17 PM
Dr. Harry Benjamin came up with a categorization of various types of trans folks based on his observations from his clinical practice treating transsexuals and published his typology back in 1966.  While it has been widely disputed and mostly replaced by today's concept of a gender spectrum that varies from individual to individual I find it very interesting from a historical perspective.  He came up with 6 basic types, I think I would fall into the Type 5 transsexual profile at this point:

Type One: ->-bleeped-<- (Pseudo)

Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Could get occasional kick out of dressing. Normal male life.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Hetero, bi, or homosexual. Dressing and -- more --exchange may occur in masturbation fantasies mainly. May enjoy TV literature only.
Kinsey Scale: 0-6
Conversion Operation: Not considered in reality.
Estrogen Medication: Not interested or indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted and unnecessary.
Remarks: Interests in dressing is only sporadic.

Type Two: Transvestism (Fetishistic)

Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dressing periodically or part of the time. Dresses underneath male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual. Rarely bisexual. Masturbation with fetish. Guilt feelings. Purges and relapses.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Rejected
Estrogen Medication: Rarely interested. Occasionally useful to reduce libido.
Psychotherapy: May be successful (in a favorable environment.)
Remarks: May imitate double (masculine and feminine) personality with male and female names.

Type Three: Transvestism (True)

Gender Feeling: Masculine (but with less conviction.)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses constantly or as often as possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath male clothes, if no other chance.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual, except when dressed. Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May purge and relapse.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive.
Estrogen Medication: Attractive as an experiment. Can be helpful emotionally
Psychotherapy: If attempted is usually not successful as to cure.
Remarks: May assume double personality. Trend toward transsexualism.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)

Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman; sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)

Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible. Insufficient relief from dressing.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)

Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated.
Leave it to another dinosaur...... I think WPATH also groups along similar ways

I always called myself a CD++. I didn't exactly hate my male body, just would rather not have it, which in turn implies some level of medical transition. Thanks to HRT I am now (mostly) happy living in my own skin. Never had an issue with the dangly bits either. We've had some great times together. Yet these days I get flashes of genital dysphoria. I suspect due to issues non-GD that are pressing in my life.

Everyone's particular flavor of GD is different and unique unto themselves. Yes, there are broad categories of common factors. Unlike the above lists, they are not necessarily a linear progression, nor is any movement uni-directional. "Somewhere On the Spectrum" sums things up best.

However I personally have found that thinking of myself in my current state of reality today as Non-Binary does distract me from the wish or dream of someday living and presenting full-time as a female. But that is me, living life on the corner of Hopelessness and Futility
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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Devlyn

Nothing worse than the Harry Benjamin Syndrome "true transsexual" mindset. Others identities are false?

Topics like this are the reason TOS #10 exists. Tread carefully, folks.

Hugs, Devlyn
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LizK

Benjamins stuff is for cis people...its putting people in neat little boxes and as Devlyn has mentioned sets up some fairy destructive arguments.

Why do we need to have the subdivisions, what purpose would they serve and more importantly who would they benefit?
Transition Begun 25 September 2015
HRT since 17 May 2016,
Fulltime from 8 March 2017,
GCS 4 December 2018
Voice Surgery 01 February 2019
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josie76

QuoteThat's where the transgender spectrum confused me because it included people such as drag queens who have no mismatch

I would bet every drag queen feels a bit of discomfort in their mental to body image. Why else want to dress and perform as such? For them it reaches their needed outlet for the discomfort in a culture where being a "performer" is ok for them to feel accepted.

I think there are just so many different parts of our brains that can be partially virilized that neat little subdivisions aren't feasible.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy

A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence. I for one want to live now not just exist!

  •  

JoanneB

Quote from: ElizabethK on August 05, 2017, 07:53:41 AM
Benjamins stuff is for cis people...its putting people in neat little boxes and as Devlyn has mentioned sets up some fairy destructive arguments.

Why do we need to have the subdivisions, what purpose would they serve and more importantly who would they benefit?
The human condition.... Peoples brains like organizing things into neat little boxes. Simple and mostly works. I think at some level various as well as overlapping groupings are needed for Cis people purposes, they just haven't a clue at all about GD. Plus it helps to dispel all the negative stereotypes placed upon us.

We also like have neat little boxes as a means to comfort ourselves. It's a rough measure of where on the spectrum you may be residing this moment. Plus how many times have you seen written here on Susan's the fantastic leap many make from "I think I may be trans" to "OMG I cannot possibly transition. It will blow up my life. But that is what everything and everyone says I need to do". I for sure like knowing there is a grey zone in between those two extremes. Adding labels or names gives them some color (between the lines). Labels provide some level of comfort in knowing you are not all that unique in your feelings, that there is even a name for how you (mostly) feel.

BTW - I was always pretty uncomfortable about the label "True Transsexual". From a purely scientific POV it is correct. But how many researchers are there vs the rest who can use the term as a bludgeon? TBH - I know of no one that nicely fits any one category as defined.

I know I am not nor have I ever been a cis male. I know I will not, nor will I ever be (in this lifetime) a cis-female. How I feel and think about myself is unique to me. What I feel and what I think may correlate to how others do and just may have a loosely defined "Term" for it. Having a name for something is a sort of short-hand is used properly. Like many other words, it can also be a weapon. Sometime even used against you by yourself. People are funny that way
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
  •  

Denni

Started a thread some weeks ago that seems to address this subject "Who Am I Again?  An Answer For All of Us"
Seems to me we try to complicate so many things, when we have already made our lives more difficult with being transgender.
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