It has really buggered me and I was thinking about on my way home from work

I rarely ( and I mean there were maybe 2 occasions during my whole life) see any androgynous/feminine males... in behaviour and/or looks. And I dont mean the overly camp gay guys, which I, perhaps not fair of me but anyway, dont really see as androgynous or feminine but more an act

Have met males with higher pitched voice but those were..... 10 year old boys lol I have a fairly high pitched voice and my laughter is definately not male-ish , and no I aint a 10 year old boy at 23 . No supple handshakes, no fairly graceful walk, no changing voice tonage

I just dont see it, Im blind

Perhaps I am taking myself as a measurement and all men I met and see are automatically more masculine

You see a lot more androgynous/tomboy/masculine women in comparison

I guess patriarchy is sooo much more valued, could be a small part of the cause

How is this in America for example...Im dutch

What is it about it that bugs you?

Is it that you think they are around but you can't see them, or the thought that there arn't any around?

I don't remember seeing any either. Maybe it means the look just does not exist? Or maybe we just see them as androgynous females?

It bugs me because I feel all alone...I get the impression there are no androgynous/feminine "males" , so I start doubting myself "Perhaps I am masculine really, it doesnt seem to excist"

Many of us never know and spend our lives blending in.
The males of this world tend to make you conform as a kid and young adult.

Androgyne is not necessarily an external appearance, some of us strive for an external appearance that better matches our internal view of ourselves, but usually that is only after we become self aware or accepting of it. Finding an androgyne in a room full of people is not likely to happen as most tend to try to blend in, not even knowing what they are. I am in my 30's and only just figured it out. There are others here older than myself in the same boat.

Also, your idea of masculinity is likely to be heavily skewed.

You are not alone, we are all around you.

Quote from: sd on February 13, 2008, 03:19:35 PM
Also, your idea of masculinity is likely to be heavily skewed.

Well then tell me what masculinity is...

Quote from: Veetje on February 13, 2008, 03:36:17 PM
Well then tell me what masculinity is...

This may not the best forum to ask that question. Many of us spent a long time trying to fake that very thing.

I could give you the typical definition but I doubt that is what you want.

Ok, then tell me why you think my idea of masculinity is heavily skewed?

Im eager to hear that

Quote from: Veetje on February 13, 2008, 04:38:43 PM

Ok, then tell me why you think my idea of masculinity is heavily skewed?

Im eager to hear that

Much of femininity and masculinity is tied or associated with gender (or vice versa), as an androgyne, do you really expect to be good at it?
If we truly fit into a masculine or feminine role, would we be having this conversation?

i think male bodied people are more likely to put up a masculine front than female bodied people are to put up a feminine front...it seems to me that it's more okay for women to be 'tomboyish' than it is for men to be feminine, so it is probably a lot harder to meet men who will let themselves come across as feminine...

i've met a few guys that i think might be androgyne, but i don't know that they are.

There is another thread discussing the topic "why are there more male bodied androgynes than female bodied androgynes?"  This thread forms an interesting counterbalance "why are there more androgynous looking women than men?"  I have never visited the Netherlands, so I cannot speak from any experience comparing the US to the Dutch, but from this side of the pond the gender issues seem to be similar.  If anything Holland seems to have the reputation of being a more socially liberal society than the American midwest where I live.

I think it is easier for a woman to appear androgynous than for a man to do so.  Androgynous attire (slacks and a shirt or sweater, flat shoes) and androgynous hairstyle (short) are closer to the traditional male attire and hairstyle than to the traditional female style.  So women who adopt this style are more likely to appear as androgynous but men who do are still likely to be perceived as traditionally male.  Socially acceptable styles for men have moved a little bit towards the feminine end of the spectrum (longer hair and jewelry) but the movement of socially acceptable styles for women has been much more dramatic.  When it becomes just as socially acceptable for men to wear a skirt and makeup as women then we will see more androgynous males.  For now to appear androgynous a male needs to do some crossdressing.  That is still not socially accepted.

It is not just the type of clothing, but there are color bars, too (please excuse the pun). I just had a loud passionate argument with my wife and daughter when I proposed buying red suede moccasins
and a sea green shirt (both on sale as overstocks of men's clothing). The red shoes offended most: I could only wear red shoes with a matching shade of red slacks--and DO NOT buy red slacks! Wearing such shoes might adversely effect my wife's chances for career advancement (according to my daughter).

I plan to buy the shoes; they are inexpensive. Even though I probably will not wear them frequently, if one does not occasionally take advantage of a freedom when it is unpopular, one loses that freedom. I do think women are very conscientious about enforcing male gender roles.

Simone

Quote from: Simone Louise on February 17, 2008, 03:35:00 PM
It is not just the type of clothing, but there are color bars, too (please excuse the pun). I just had a loud passionate argument with my wife and daughter when I proposed buying red suede moccasins
and a sea green shirt (both on sale as overstocks of men's clothing). The red shoes offended most: I could only wear red shoes with a matching shade of red slacks--and DO NOT buy red slacks! Wearing such shoes might adversely effect my wife's chances for career advancement (according to my daughter).

I plan to buy the shoes; they are inexpensive. Even though I probably will not wear them frequently, if one does not occasionally take advantage of a freedom when it is unpopular, one loses that freedom. I do think women are very conscientious about enforcing male gender roles.

Simone

I didnt really understand this post sadly ( Perhaps the fact English isnt my mother tongue)

What exactly was their argument?

Personally I think Red and Green is a no-no....Red and Black/White is better ^^

At least in the US, some colors are assigned to men's clothing, and some to women's. Frequently, for instance, the same T-shirt is offered in primary colors to men and in pastels to women only. Men's leather shoes are usually only offered in some shade of black or brown. So, if I see an otherwise acceptable shoe in blue or red leather, for example, I want them.

It's never seemed like it should be a big issue, but it is--in my experience. Hope that helps.

Simone

Quote from: Simone Louise on February 17, 2008, 03:35:00 PM
It is not just the type of clothing, but there are color bars, too (please excuse the pun). I just had a loud passionate argument with my wife and daughter when I proposed buying red suede moccasins

This is why I was so pleased when buying my purple leather boots.

Quote from: Simone Louise on February 17, 2008, 03:35:00 PM
I do think women are very conscientious about enforcing male gender roles.

Yes, they are.  I think women should get just as bad a rap for being sexist because they are.  They are bad about enforcing female gender roles too.  If you are female, but you don't wear heels or flirt with guys (especially the 'right type' of guy), other women will turn on you.  Women can be pretty vicious.  It's more subtle though.  Where boys beat each other up, women go for the psychological route.  It can get pretty brutal.  Luckily, I don't care enough to be bothered by it (which has also ticked off some of my female "friends"...I don't talk to them anymore...).

It's easier for women to socially accept men who are more feminine or who are gay because they don't have a masculinity to protect.  But they will judge a man just as harshly as men will.  If women think you're effeminate, they automatically assume you're gay and they will talk about you behind your back, instead of beating you up like their male counterparts.

...I prefer being androgyne.  We're nicer than those binary people...

Personally, I like a man who wears color.  There's a great pink t-shirt that says, "Real Men Wear Pink."  Makes me sort of happy...

Masculinity is touted as the holy grail of human qualities.

When it comes down to it I think the vast majority of men in this country would be quite happy with a beer drinking, xbox playing, sports/nascar watching wife who doesn't take 2 hours to get ready to go out, and is happy going out to taco bell.

Women are extremely vicious to other women because society has women in constant competition with each other for the highest quality male attention.

Men perceived to be "weak" are easy targets.

A lot of it has to do with seeing what you expect.

For example, I may go out and do some parkour.  You know, lots of running and jumping around.  At first glance, I may look like some macho show-off.  However, people who know me know that I'm a bit of everything.  But if you have a habit of only looking at something, rather than everything, you will still only see the something.  To you I will be macho show-off.  To other people, I will be much more, because they have allowed themselves to see more.

Quote from: Louise on February 16, 2008, 12:15:48 PM

I think it is easier for a woman to appear androgynous than for a man to do so.  Androgynous attire (slacks and a shirt or sweater, flat shoes) and androgynous hairstyle (short) are closer to the traditional male attire and hairstyle than to the traditional female style.  So women who adopt this style are more likely to appear as androgynous but men who do are still likely to be perceived as traditionally male.  Socially acceptable styles for men have moved a little bit towards the feminine end of the spectrum (longer hair and jewelry) but the movement of socially acceptable styles for women has been much more dramatic.  When it becomes just as socially acceptable for men to wear a skirt and makeup as women then we will see more androgynous males.  For now to appear androgynous a male needs to do some crossdressing.  That is still not socially accepted.

This is it to the "T".  Masculinity is so valued that a woman who embraces masculinity can be accepted, but a man who rejects it is shunned.  I personally try to fight this by wearing makeup and girls clothing without trying to appear as a woman.  And it actually works!  People don't know what to make of it, so they'll say ma'am simply because I've got makeup on and thats their best guess.

I don't know what it was about today, but I got maamed twice (silly drunk old men) and a travelling salesman tried to sell me lip gloss and eyeliner.

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 28, 2008, 10:07:00 AM
I don't know what it was about today, but I got maamed twice (silly drunk old men) and a travelling salesman tried to sell me lip gloss and eyeliner.

I know what it's about.