Quote from: Gertrude on August 13, 2017, 08:17:36 AM

Quote from: FTMax on August 12, 2017, 09:45:32 AM
I like Ben Shapiro and agree with him on many things. You're rarely, if ever, going to have complete agreement with anyone in life. If it bothers you to associate with people whose views are significantly different from your own, unfriend them.

I think it would be a mistake though. The whole reason the world was so shocked by this last election cycle is that we're all so caught up in our own micro echo chambers where we only have dialogue with people who believe the same things we do. If you shut out people you don't agree with, you lose the opportunity to present your side.

I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

Quote from: Jessica Lynne on August 13, 2017, 11:26:05 AM
I do agree to some extent, Gertrude. But the sad reality is, trolls like Shapiro embolden other nbred reprobates to act out their stupidity. The reality is, each situation calls for it's own remedy. Of course, a peacful remedy is the sentient answer, but not always an option. And of course Shapiro wouldn't get physical, he's little more than a big mouth with feet. My concern is that always playing Ghandi gives the hating cowards carte blanche. People like Zoey at least make them think twice. And I use the word "think" with toungue in cheek".

I call it flexible response. Credit to JFK for the term. I really keep to myself and never start trouble, but I have a switch inside that can get flicked on. Too long a story as to why, but I won't tolerate someone hitting me or otherwise hurt me physically. I won't be a victim nor celebrate that. Since growing to 6'5 from the 9th grade on, it's been a blessing in that way, a curse in other ways being trans.


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Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

I'm not the eristic type. The I try to prove through argument, the better I feel about myself. I seem to recall billy Joel having a song about that...


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Quote from: Gertrude on August 13, 2017, 02:16:39 PM

Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

I'm not the eristic type. The I try to prove through argument, the better I feel about myself. I seem to recall billy Joel having a song about that...


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The fact that I wrote "dialogue" and you read "argument" is probably a part of your problem.

Quote from: Gertrude on August 13, 2017, 02:14:37 PM
I call it flexible response. Credit to JFK for the term. I really keep to myself and never start trouble, but I have a switch inside that can get flicked on. Too long a story as to why, but I won't tolerate someone hitting me or otherwise hurt me physically. I won't be a victim nor celebrate that. Since growing to 6'5 from the 9th grade on, it's been a blessing in that way, a curse in other ways being trans.


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Size in and of itself can be a blessing. But it's no guarantee of protection against an ignorant perspective that uses violence and hate to hammer home a point. I am concerned about the woman that's incapable of protecting herself for whatever reason. I don't feel the need to play heroine or martyr for any purpose and do agree with a flight not fight tact. But I must say I  do appreciate women like Zoey that won't continually attempt rationalization with an irrational mind. Should push come to shove and no valid recourse be available, I tend to default more towards Zoeys remedy as opposed to the continued attempt to appease where it clearly isn't possible. Looks like we're on the same page here, Gertrude.

Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

Yes and no. I have spend countless hours, years even trying to get people to understand and chose not to. They would tell me that if i was trans I would have had these feelings as a kid, I did (but not everyone who is trans does), then i tell them i did only to be told that if it was true they would see signs. Now, if these are family members who I didnt see often in my life really, then how do I change their minds when they use that as their block. Or how about people who once they find out I am on Estrogen and explain how it has mellowed me out mentally and is making nice changes to my body, all they want to talk about is how my voice (used to be) on the lower side or how i still have stubble. Or the family that tells it is just due to autism or due to some abuse. My thing is, they will go out of their way to find anything to back themselves up to explain to me that I am just an idiot how doesnt understand my own feelings. Ben Shapiro is the same way. He doesnt care about peoples lives or expericnes, he cares only about pushing his agenda. He is a troll. You say that you like and even agree with Ben Shapiro on things, not exactly sure what  as all he does is troll people. I also, as you can tell refuse to give anyone the time of day if they dont respect who I am. You may want to waste your time on people who think or scream that you are nothing more then a mentally ill woman who is deluded by their sense of ''reality'', but we all no that isnt true. You are a man simply born in the wrong body. Just as I am a woman who was born in the wrong body. The people who scream the most will not change their minds. Out of all the people who tried to shame me, guilt me or mock me either into staying as some male or going back to beign some male, out of all of them only one has stayed in my life as of August 13th 2017. The rest, gone. Not because of me, but because of themselves.

Quote from: SailorMars1994 on August 13, 2017, 08:26:47 PM

Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
I tend to agree with you, but if someone views you as someone with a psychiatric issue and something we're born with, it's not going to work. It's not question of plain disagreement, but of who we are. There has to be respect, and I have to wonder if someone like Shapiro are capable of it. It's a case by case thing, but you'd have to ask yourself, why would I associate with someone that doesn't respect or like me?

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I'm not saying you have to continuously subject yourself to people who clearly don't respect you, but I am saying in OP's case, cutting people off without giving dialogue a shot is definitely a mistake. You might've been the only trans person they've ever met and thus the only chance to refute anything you think is false. Giving up before even assessing if they are people who are able to think for themselves is a wasted opportunity.

Yes and no. I have spend countless hours, years even trying to get people to understand and chose not to. They would tell me that if i was trans I would have had these feelings as a kid, I did (but not everyone who is trans does), then i tell them i did only to be told that if it was true they would see signs. Now, if these are family members who I didnt see often in my life really, then how do I change their minds when they use that as their block. Or how about people who once they find out I am on Estrogen and explain how it has mellowed me out mentally and is making nice changes to my body, all they want to talk about is how my voice (used to be) on the lower side or how i still have stubble. Or the family that tells it is just due to autism or due to some abuse. My thing is, they will go out of their way to find anything to back themselves up to explain to me that I am just an idiot how doesnt understand my own feelings. Ben Shapiro is the same way. He doesnt care about peoples lives or expericnes, he cares only about pushing his agenda. He is a troll. You say that you like and even agree with Ben Shapiro on things, not exactly sure what  as all he does is troll people. I also, as you can tell refuse to give anyone the time of day if they dont respect who I am. You may want to waste your time on people who think or scream that you are nothing more then a mentally ill woman who is deluded by their sense of ''reality'', but we all no that isnt true. You are a man simply born in the wrong body. Just as I am a woman who was born in the wrong body. The people who scream the most will not change their minds. Out of all the people who tried to shame me, guilt me or mock me either into staying as some male or going back to beign some male, out of all of them only one has stayed in my life as of August 13th 2017. The rest, gone. Not because of me, but because of themselves.

I am talking about the original subjects of your post, not every person in your life you've ever talked to.

If you did any research into what all Ben Shapiro talks about beyond his opinions on trans people, you would know he is not a troll. There are three things that I outright disagree with him on, and those are his stances on trans people, climate change, and Israel, respectively. We share views on healthcare, taxation, economics, personal responsibility, and limited government, among other things. It is possible to see value in what people bring to the table as a whole without agreeing with every idea they've ever espoused.

As far as THIS issue goes, he doesn't cite his sources and makes insane statements like transgender people having a 40% suicide rate which transition doesn't change. According to Ben, almost half of us here are going to kill ourselves! And instead of debating people actually qualified in it, or hell, any kind of educated trans activist, he's rather pick on easily triggered and confounded Gender Studies students at University talks where he as the speaker has the inherent advantage. That is trolling.

Quote from: JMJW on August 14, 2017, 07:24:32 AM
As far as THIS issue goes, he doesn't cite his sources and makes insane statements like transgender people having a 40% suicide rate which transition doesn't change. According to Ben, almost half of us here are going to kill ourselves! And instead of debating people actually qualified in it, or hell, any kind of educated trans activist, he's rather pick on easily triggered and confounded Gender Studies students at University talks where he as the speaker has the inherent advantage. That is trolling.

This I agree with 100%. Also FTMax i see you point about a wide spectrum of beleifs. However, if he lies so badly about trans people , what makes you think he is telling the truth about anything else he says. Even one intentional lie, especially on this magnitude is a deal breaker He is a troll.

@FTMax. Koolaid drinkers are rather self identifying. Shapiro is certainly of that ilk. It's pointless to engage these types of people because they, A. Have an agenda  or B. Have made up their minds and have no intention of being confused by facts.

I had some people on social media posting this and some other anti-trans garbage while trying to claim logic, anthropology, and science are on their side when it so clearly isn't. I've taken the opportunity as a challenge to further educate myself and Everytime I see a post from friends and family I join the fray and try to be as informative and education as possible. At first. I'm not even out publicly yet so it's been a little weird advocating so heavily. I'm pretty sure at this rate I'm going to out myself just with my vocal support of the community.

Quote from: Rambler on August 14, 2017, 12:47:57 PM
I had some people on social media posting this and some other anti-trans garbage while trying to claim logic, anthropology, and science are on their side when it so clearly isn't. I've taken the opportunity as a challenge to further educate myself and Everytime I see a post from friends and family I join the fray and try to be as informative and education as possible. At first. I'm not even out publicly yet so it's been a little weird advocating so heavily. I'm pretty sure at this rate I'm going to out myself just with my vocal support of the community.

Probably. Around 2013 and 2014 , being the years i began my transition and then, finally doing so, I started to do the same thing. I was still pretending to be some country man, but i knew that mask would go. I went from a ''hard'' right winger to the center-left, where my true beleifs were. I also started to seek out in favour of LGBT rights very very openly and debated people who held out fashioned beleifs. The this Ashley of 2017 is proud of the Ashley who was still wearing a mask in 2013 who what she did... not so proud of the Ashley from 2010 tho.

But yes, when you become vocal, espeiaclly when you were super silent or part of the problem at one point, you will turn heads.

Quote from: Rambler on August 14, 2017, 12:47:57 PM
I had some people on social media posting this and some other anti-trans garbage while trying to claim logic, anthropology, and science are on their side when it so clearly isn't. I've taken the opportunity as a challenge to further educate myself and Everytime I see a post from friends and family I join the fray and try to be as informative and education as possible. At first. I'm not even out publicly yet so it's been a little weird advocating so heavily. I'm pretty sure at this rate I'm going to out myself just with my vocal support of the community.

Congratulations......you're real. Fight for your future. I found myself curiously doing the same thing as a precursor to outing myself. It seems to bubble out of you like a wellspring as a preparation. Be prepared to surprise yourself. You think this thing is something you logically control. I'm here to attest that logic plays no part. In fact, it becomes the enemy. Good luck.
..

Not just these things but as I said before, not everyone with an opinion should be given equal ground. Look at what is happening in Virginia. this is what happens when you normalize evil and hate

I too will always stand in our defense and point the public away from junk science to real science.

Quote from: FTMax on August 13, 2017, 03:29:24 PM
I'm not the eristic type. The I try to prove through argument, the better I feel about myself. I seem to recall billy Joel having a song about that...


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The fact that I wrote "dialogue" and you read "argument" is probably a part of your problem.

It's arguing, at least from most of what read on the internet. People just standing in concrete with their POV. You may call it dialogue, I call it pissing in the wind.


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